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[+] 103 points 7 months ago (23 children)
  • [+] [S] -50 points 7 months ago (22 children)
  • [–] 72 points 7 months ago (21 children)

    They ask for it to store a date today, ask for IDs the next. Heck they already want 3d printers to somehow identify if they're printing parts that can be used in guns, but 3d printers don't have that kind of computing power nor should they need that so odds are most companies will require an internet connection and upload to a central server to be analyzed. And thus privacy goes away unintentionally.

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  • [+] -10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (14 children)

    ask for IDs the next.

    Who? How?

    It's just a stupid "slippery slope" fear mongering. "Then Linux will require a child sacrifice to even boot and will not connect to the internet unless you recite the entire Pledge of Allegiance".

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    It's just a stupid "slippery slope" fear mongering

    Do you want me to point to the last 25 years?

    I could go back further.

    The slippery slope fallacy has to do with ignoring the fact that restraint is possible.

    I am gonna ask you to look at the last 25 years and show me where there's been an ounce of restraint to privacy in the US. An ounce of restraint placed upon surveillance.

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  • [+] -8 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    Do you want me to point to the last 25 years?

    Yes, please point me to all the instances of open source projects implementing some mandatory ID checks. You know what? Just name one.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    The slippery slope fallacy requires that the expected escalation be unlikely.

    There already exists places where third party age verification is required, so it's not an unreasonable expectation that a government already pushing for age verification "for the children" would also try a similar kind of legislation.

    Yes, please point me to all the instances of open source projects implementing some mandatory ID checks. You know what? Just name one.

    Given that open source wasn't a hard criteria until you just added it to try and support your argument , why would proof of a position nobody has taken help anyone?

    Perhaps you meant point you at the instances of legislative creep around privacy and age verification in the last 25 years, as was suggested.

    In which case you can just search for it, it's easily findable.

    If you need help with search terms, try "Age verification UK"

    Nobody is claiming all(or any) open source projects will comply, the argument is that this is a step towards laws/legislation that make not complying illegal.

    You could argue against that, but i don't think you'd have much of an argument, which you probably know, because you would have done that already if it was a valid point.

    What they are pointing at is that systemd has potentially done something to pre-capitulate and voicing their concern.

    Nobody is pushing this single field change in isolation is a full age verification system, to pretend they are is disingenuous and reeks of bad faith.

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  • [–] -5 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    Given that open source wasn’t a hard criteria until you just added it

    Dude, we're talking about systemd. It being open source is the single most important factor here. If you don't understand this you have no idea what is being discussed.

    Bringing up age verification in UK is like saying iptables supports internet censorship because great firewall of China exists.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    Dude, we’re talking about systemd. It being open source is the single most important factor here.

    Says who? I'd argue that the perceived pre-capitulation is the most important part.

    Moving goalposts to align with your notion of the most important part doesn't mean the goalposts weren't moved.

    If you don’t understand this you have no idea what is being discussed.

    Says someone who's whole argument relies on claiming that people think a single db field is full age verification.

    The person you are replying to mentioned 3d printers as well as privacy in general , if you want to move the goalposts that's on you.

    Bringing up age verification in UK is like saying iptables supports internet censorship because great firewall of China exists.

    My stated position was that escalation happens and the UK is an example, at no point did i equate the single field here to the measures in the uk.

    If you want to go with false equivalence try and be a bit more subtle about it at least.

    I'll make it easy, respond to the following statement without moving any goalposts.


    • This field is a pre-capitulation to a law, is states this in the PR:
    • This field is not age verification on it's own.
    • In the past 25 years there are provable instances of governments enacting mandatory third party age verification using laws and legislation.
    • Mandatory third party age verification exists already in some places.

    Of the following options, how likely do you think it is that the current US government or some part thereof will try and pass a law or add legislation to mandate OS level age verification in some form greater than the current Californian proposal.

    • Out of the Question
    • Very Unlikely
    • Unlikely
    • Likely
    • Very Likely
    • Guaranteed
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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Of the following options, how likely do you think it is that the current US government or some part thereof will try and pass a law or add legislation to mandate OS level age verification in some form greater than the current Californian proposal.

    This questions shows you're completely missing the point here. Let's say the answer is "Guaranteed", in 5 years age verification on OS level will be mandated by law in US. Will it become mandatory on all Linux installations? Of course not. Anyone willing will just download Linux distro for any other country and use it. Let's say age verification will become mandatory in the whole fucking world and all official Linux distros will adopt it. Anyone willing will download "illegal" Linux distro and use it. The source code is there, making a version of Linux without age verification is and always will be easy. The changes done by systemd are meaningless because they do no bring us any closer to real enforcement. Police knocking on people's doors and checking their computers will bring real enforcement and what systemd does or doesn't do has nothing to do with it. Getting mad at systemd for adding this field only shows people don't understand what the real danger is. You're conflating political issues with completely irrelevant technical changes. This is very simple. I really don't know how people are confused by it. It's like you are trying to distract us from the real problems on purpose.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

    TL;DR;

    • The field isn't the issue, the intent behind it (and the intentions behind the law that started it) are what (most) people are complaining about.
    • Pretending that people are complaining about the field itself in isolation as a means to not address the actual concern being raised is weaksauce.

    Let’s say the answer is “Guaranteed”, in 5 years age verification on OS level will be mandated by law in US. Will it become mandatory on all Linux installations? Of course not.

    If the law mandates OS level age verification, then, yes, it will become mandatory on all linux installations, in the situations where the law applies. there is no "of course not" about it.

    Will everybody adhere to this? almost certainly not, will it be illegal to not adhere to this yes it will.


    Anyone willing will just download Linux distro for any other country and use it.

    Agreed, still illegal though.


    Let’s say age verification will become mandatory in the whole fucking world and all official Linux distros will adopt it. Anyone willing will download “illegal” Linux distro and use it.

    Also agreed.


    The source code is there, making a version of Linux without age verification is and always will be easy.

    Easy is a leap, i'll agree to possible. Still illegal in the proposed scenario.


    The changes done by systemd are meaningless because they do no bring us any closer to real enforcement.

    I'm not disputing that the actual change itself is of much use in a verification sense, which i've said repeatedly.

    Technically , by definition, the addition of code that facilitates checks, no matter how small, is bringing us closer, but i know what you mean and I’ve already stated that i agree.

    The issue being raised is not the PR itself, but the intention behind it (and the intentions behind the law that started it) , as has been stated multiple times.


    Police knocking on people’s doors and checking their computers will bring real enforcement and what systemd does or doesn’t do has nothing to do with it.

    Also not true, that example doesn't really hold up , but to answer it directly :

    • If the field does exist and is incorrect (or empty), that's something they can try to admit as evidence.
    • If the implementation of the field exists and this particular build/compilation doesn't include it,that is also a kind of proof.
    • If the field never existed in the first place it's absence can't be used to prove anything.

    To be clear I’m not saying this to claim a position of "field is bad on it's own", i'm saying your example doesn't hold up.


    Getting mad at systemd for adding this field only shows people don’t understand what the real danger is.

    As i have said multiple times, most people aren't arguing against the field itself.

    You continuing to pretend they are mad at systemd for the field itself is telling.


    You’re conflating political issues with completely irrelevant technical changes.

    No, I’ve been clear that they are separate and that most aren't complaining about the technical change in isolation.

    I'll quote myself:

    This field is not age verification on it’s own.

    Nobody is pushing this single field change in isolation is a full age verification system, to pretend they are is disingenuous and reeks of bad faith.

    If you want to continue to pretend conflation so you don't have to actually address the concern being presented that says a lot.


    This is very simple. I really don’t know how people are confused by it. It’s like you are trying to distract us from the real problems on purpose.

    So, incorrect usage of a fallacy, moving goalposts, feigned ignorance , and now projection.

    Is there some sort of bingo card you're working from ?

    Anyway, I’ll assume bad faith at this point, as it's unlikely you hit that many checkboxes accidentally.

    On the offchance I’ll get a genuine answer, what is it that you think is the "real problem" here ?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (6 children)

    So, incorrect usage of a fallacy, moving goalposts, feigned ignorance , and now projection.

    Claiming that something is a fallacy doesn't make it any less true. It's a very lazy way of arguing.

    The real problem is that some countries are actively trying to de-anonymize internet users. Not all countries accused of it are actually doing it, not all laws that people say will do it actually have this goal and not every technology that makes it possible will for sure be used with this purpose. Going on wild chases after some silly PRs in systemd or digital IDs is not helping anyone. It just serves as a distraction and makes fighting the real threats more difficult.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (5 children)

    Claiming that something is a fallacy doesn’t make it any less true. It’s a very lazy way of arguing.

    I agree completely, i've seen an example of this recently :

    It’s just a stupid “slippery slope” fear mongering.

    I also have a list of examples of things that are not fallacies, just poor debate skills:

    • Incorrect usage of a fallacy
    • moving goalposts
    • feigned ignorance
    • projection

    If i had to pick one though i'd probably go with the Invincible ignorance fallacy


    The real problem is that some countries are actively trying to de-anonymize internet users. Not all countries accused of it are actually doing it, not all laws that people say will do it actually have this goal and not every technology that makes it possible will for sure be used with this purpose.

    100% agree that this is a big problem, it's not the only one, but a big one.

    I'm expecting it to work on a multiplicative curve, exponential ? geometric?

    All of the bits from various places will add up and continue to accumulate momentum towards the goal.

    Going on wild chases after some silly PRs in systemd or digital IDs is not helping anyone. It just serves as a distraction and makes fighting the real threats more difficult.

    Which is again, not the point and also incorrect.

    Highlighting this as another example of the continuous creep towards end goal while explaining the increasing encroachment is incredibly useful for getting more eyes on the bigger picture.

    because.....the issue isn't the PR , but the intent behind it.

    If it was just about the PR itself in isolation, i'd agree with you.

    If anything, you trying to shut down the discussion around this "silly" PR is doing more to harm the general increase in awareness.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Highlighting this as another example of the continuous creep towards end goal while explaining the increasing encroachment is incredibly useful for getting more eyes on the bigger picture.

    Hmmm.... maybe you're right. I will follow the comments more closely to see what part of them talks about fighting the actual legislation and what part just talks about abandoning systemd. My sensation so far was that people were focusing almost exclusively on forking the project and creating pointless alternative distros but maybe it was just my bias.

    I agree that if talking about systemd would serve to inform people about the legislation and abolish it (or prevent the next one) it would be actually useful. Recently we've seen couple of fairly successful actions like complaining about Android's developer verification to EU, complaining about planned backdoors in E2E encryption in EU or writing to EU about open source in general. All this was done before changes were actually enacted and in reaction to concrete proposals, not as weird attacks on unrelated projects after the law was already passed and complaining about some general and gradual "slippery slope" style attacks on privacy. But maybe the other tactic will also work. I guess we'll see.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    https://lemmy.nz/post/35765225

    And more comments about systemd but 0 talk about the legislation. So far I don't see any confirmation for you theory that talking about systemd helps promote this issue and fight the legislation.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    Highlighting this as another example of the continuous creep towards end goal while explaining the increasing encroachment is incredibly useful for getting more eyes on the bigger picture.

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    edit: changed emphasis

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I get your point but all I see is still just people talking about slippery slopes and what they think will come next in very general terms. With Chat Control for example the discussion was a lot more concrete. He had information about very specific legislation and how it was progressing through the legislation and we had pressure campaigns on EU and national levels. It was so much different than complaining about some software complying with the law and how it should be resisting it instead. I simply think focusing so much on systemd is pointless and it's not helping with the issue at all.

    But at this point it's just my personal opinion and I might very well be wrong about it. I sure hope this will serve as some catalyst that will let people focus on the actual issue and fight it effectively. Right now I don't see any effective action, only distractions, but since I'm not doing anything useful regarding this either I should just let people do what they see fit. Even if it's just venting.

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  • [+] [S] -32 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    They aren't "asking for a date"

    The PR in question just adds a way to store a birth date. That's it

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago

    This hasn't been needed until just now, coincidentally when dipshit one-foot-in-the-grave out of touch sociopaths try to make it a law? It's just a fluke that the timing is the same?

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  • [–] 33 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I foresee an astronomical amount of people born at unix epoch to appear if it becomes a required field lol

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    October 15th, 1582 is another one you see often. (Edit: Some date systems use this as 0 because it was the start of the proleptic Gregorian calendar.)

    Don't forget December 31st, 1969 which you'll see when computers adjust UTC midnight at the Unix epoch to local time in the western hemisphere.

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    [–] 88 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    There’s a disconnect over this in that one side looks at the present data and other takes a possible result from that into account. (dividing people into groups…for the sake of argument ok?)

    Now from strictly an IT perspective, this is indeed pretty meaningless. One line of code that stores one piece of data. Who cares right?

    From the other side you take the very hot topics of politics and privacy into account (two things that are also very front and center with most of the Lemmy crowd afaik).

    Because it can start by just one line of code but where will it end? Personally I’d rather be over cautious and assume the worst.

    I mean look at the story of cookies. Back in the 90’s they were a small benign piece of data and look how that turned out. Our entire world is influenced by it today to great extend.

    Personally I’d rather be overly cautious.

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  • [–] 38 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    People need to remember that slippery slope is a very specific fallacy where a hyperbolic chain of events is not backed up by supporting evidence.

    If we allow gay marriage people will want to marry their dogs!

    While none of us can possibly know where this ends, this is preemptive compliance with privacy invading measures that are practically indistinguishable from the kind of overreaching control desired by malicious parties. This is a much stronger case and even IF this is the last step, there's no reason to take it in the first place.

    It's morally correct to loudly object at every step, that's how you fight this.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    The thing to also keep in mind is that this shit is pushed now by Facebook and politicians, none of whom care a single shit about kids, as they so loudly claim. That alone is a huge red flag as it's always "but think about the poor children!!" that is used for the most nefarious shit being pushed.

    This has been in the works for a long time (I've seen attempts for this at least a decade ago) and now it finally passed in some places,. meaning that it only got easier to soon implement it everywhere

    Yes, it's a slippery slope argument but that slope is right there in front of us

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    [–] 57 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Hell no, we didn't fall for anything. This is a real problem with real and far-reaching consequences, associated to multiple legislative attacks against privacy etc, pushed by corporates and religious groups.

    YOU fell for the "think of the children" lie and "It's just a text field" BS. No, this is far worse than just a text field.

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  • [+] -13 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Do you feel the same about the "user name" field? Do you consider that to also be the end of privacy and the road to totalitarianism?

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Problem is “why now”, but also comparison to username field is not really valid - username is actually useful, what’s the point of birth date apart from age verification? You need some kind of username to converse to fellow engineers, birth date is completely unnecessary for that

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  • [–] -4 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Are you saying that you're putting your real name in the "user name" field? And feel that you have to?

    What's the difference between inputting a bogus name or a nickname in the "user name" field and selecting 1970-01-01 as your DoB?

    You need some kind of username to converse to fellow engineers

    On your OS?? No, you don't. You select a username on whatever system you pick for said comms, has nothing to do with the OS account's "user name" field.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    A username field isn't for your real name, it's for a username and it has always been for that. Stop being intentionally obtuse.

    What's to stop them from using all of the required user fields and then running a background fingerprinting check and then using that fingerprint every single time you visit a site? It doesn't have to be your real date of birth. What matters is that it's a consistent info for your user account so that they can identify who you are. Obviously there are other ways to fingerprint a user, but this just makes it easier to do so, and it's another unnecessary datapoint for "them" to use.

    People are defending this with such fervor, too, that it really makes a person doubt whether they're even arguing against actual humans. Like, I can see why people would be against general change or against privacy invasion, but why would someone care so much about defending a date of birth field?

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago*

    A username field isn’t for your real name, it’s for a username and it has always been for that. Stop being intentionally obtuse.

    I'm not talking about the "username" field.

    I'm talking about the "Full name", or "User name", or "Name" field in the OS - name depends on the language version and the OS itself. Stop being intentionally obtuse.

    What’s to stop them from using all of the required user fields and then running a background fingerprinting check and then using that fingerprint every single time you visit a site?

    What...?

    First of all: the OS username is not shared with the website.

    Secondly: websites already do fingerprinting, what are you talking about?

    People are defending this with such fervor, too

    Yeah, "stop overreacting" is such incredible fervour!

    but why would someone care so much about defending a date of birth field?

    I could not care less. I just find it weird that you guys panic about it so much, to the point of there being dozens of new systemd forks, just because a new optional field was added.

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  • [+] 45 points 7 months ago (18 children)
  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (17 children)

    The source is the source: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/acb6624fa19ddd68f9433fb0838db119fe18c3ed

    Takes a birth date for the user in ISO 8601 calendar date format. The earliest representable year is 1900. If an empty string is passed the birth date is reset to unset.

    That's it. That's all it does.

    Whatever was discussed in the PR, the code does precisely nothing to implement any kind of verification. It's just an optional birth date field, like tons of electronics have had forever.

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  • [+] 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)
  • [+] -14 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    So they’re introducing a system where a users age can be verified?

    No. They are not.

    It is an optional field that does no semblance of checking its veracity. Again, like basically every bit of electronics has had forever.

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  • [+] 14 points 7 months ago (2 children)
  • [+] -11 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    I just don't see how it's any different than my Sony PSP having an optional birthday field. Or oldschool forums having one. It can't possibly affect me, or anyone who's concerned about it.

    If systemd starts talking about bundling face scanners or whatever they actually need to verify someone's age, and then tons of linux systems start requiring it, then I will be gravely concerned.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago*

    ah yeah because all of our digital clocks, smartphones, smart watches, microwaves, washing machines, TVs, and.. what else stores user age in a standardized manner? oh, you say none of these and no other things either?

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    I don’t think anyone who read even the first paragraph of the article (at least the one i read) would say they are doing verification. They are simply adding a field for data to be housed if anyone wants to opt in. Instead of putting it in 20 different spots/apps it’s in one place that any third party can reference.

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  • [–] 34 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    it’s in one place that any third party can reference.

    But why would I want that?

    Even if you ignore the whole "this doesn't verify anything" discussion, why would I want to give third parties easy access to personal and potentially sensitive information? I personally am not interested in simplifying data collection for corporate entities who definitely do not give a shit about the safety of my personal data, let alone hypothetical children. I do not know why this data collection needs or would be desired to be implemented within systemd, besides being a direct response to age verification laws saying its an OS providers responsibility to collect it. Arbitrary data collection by private entities is not "useful". My personal data has no business being referenced by random asshats that ask for it. There are so few things in the world that "justify" needing my age that I would suggest it would be easier to make my birth date a permanent data point on my PC. Same goes for the other personal details that systemd already supports. Crazy to imagine anyone actually using those on a personal machine.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

    "While our lawyers are fighting it in court, we decided to whip up the barest minimum viable proof of concept so that if it does come to pass, at least it'll be on our terms, and not a rushed piece of easily-exploitable garbage pushed out at the last second" the systemd team, probably

    Edit: source, two weeks ago, the pull request conversation: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954#issuecomment-4032221990

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    That's the question: would they fight it? From all I've seen so far, they wouldn't.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    I'm Jeremy from System76. We are in talks with legislators and there are likely to be amendments to the age verification bills, as well as conflicting requirements in different jurisdictions. It may even be the case that open source operating systems are exempted entirely. I detailed this on the xdg mailing list here:

    https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2026-March/014797.html

    I have other concerns about this specific implementation. By relying on systemd, which is decidedly unportable to non-Linux operating systems, and not used across all Linux operating systems either, it will force at least one alternative implementation to exist. If these implementations end up having to collect jurisdiction specific requirements, that makes it much harder for compliance.
    https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954#issuecomment-4032221990

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Yeah, I've read that discussion a few days ago. That specific post seemed reasonable, but that was a comment from outside the core systemd team, wasn't it? As far as I understood all of this, different people took the decision to merge, without coordinating their efforts with those of the corporate linux distros (Pop!, Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora, (Open)SUSE).

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  • [–] -2 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Its a nullable field, chill. It's exactly the same as a Linux distro installer asking for your first name for account setup and the moral outrage is genuinely embarrassing

    Edit: not to mention that good system design reduces redundant data. If programs want your birthdate, they'll either repeatedly ask you or go to a central source. If you don't want to give out that information, you enter a null value or you put something random. The only difference is now you don't have to repeatedly do that

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  • Good system design doesn't do things without me asking it to. I'll gladly manually re enter my birth date for an external service if its required, which to be clear, should be as close to 0 times as possible. What, should I keep all my job application info in the initialization system too? Because a website I'm on might ask for it at some point? Don't want to be too redundant.

    Literally this field serves no purpose other than to build compliance with the surveillance state. No end user asked for this. Like I said, can't imagine any end user making use of the existing systemd fields either. But those also didn't get any attention because they weren't made as a reaction to threats by a malicious regime.

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  • [+] [S] -6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    It is just a optional field

    Be mad at lawmakers not developers who are trying to make the best of a shitty situation

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  • It was also an option to not make a useless field. Not like this self reported dob is going to cut it for the existing age verification laws as is exists now. But I can be mad at people in a position of community production for not having a spine, too.

    How is this supposed to be making the best of the situation anyway? It accomplished nothing but piss off the community and signify to authoritarians that open source developers are ready to bend over for them. Simply threaten unenforceable fines across the world and suddenly everything is hopeless. Better get ready to comply, its inevitable! Its pathetic. Ageless Linux might be performative bs, but at least its critical of this over reach instead of intentionally signalling compliance in advance.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    I speak only for myself, but I’m not mad at any developers for following with this. I wish they wouldn’t, but I can’t blame them for following the law to protect themselves.

    I still think this is bullshit and just going down the slippery slope. The next thing is “this value doesn’t do anything. Now we need a law that actually checks an ID!” And it just keeps getting worse and worse.

    Don’t give them an inch on any of this bullshit. And by them, I do mean the governments trying these stupid laws that, at best, waste taxpayer money and valuable time spent on other worthwhile things.

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  • [–] 207 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    Nobody gives a fuck about your weaseling technicalities. The salient fact is that this change was made in order to "comply in advance" with totalitarian fuckery. It SIGNALS POLITICAL SUPPORT for it, and that's not okay!

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  • [–] 74 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    I studied at the PR in question and that's not the conclusion I arrive at. Let me try to explain how this looks to me.

    Also keep in mind, I do think we absolutely need to keep the political pressure on and push back on identity-gating policies with all our collective might. In that light the PR itself does the two things I'd absolutely require here: one, it allows the user to put whatever value they want in that field, including none at all, and two, it disallows all apps from reading that field without the user's active permission.

    Basically it's a superficially valid implementation of a bullshit requirement that still leaves all the power in the user's hands and therefore renders the requirement meaningless. Or in other words, a huge middle finger to the proponents of age-checking.

    Mind you, I feel there's also value in loud non-compliance and I'm glad some are taking that road -- keep it up, folks. But I'm leery of demands that only one single approach be taken. This needs to be fought on every front we can. And to me the PR in question reads like an effective defensive move.

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  • [–] 20 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    That's something I wondered about the person who implemented this too, I wonder if it was an attempt to install a bare minimum to say "There. We did it. Leave us alone." Instead of leaving it up to the government to force the issue, and he's getting absolutely raked over the coals for it.

    If that's the case, I feel terribly bad about this backfiring so hard on him. I do think we should be putting up a lot more resistance before resorting to something like this though.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Some others have also suggested that this was done out of spite, however after reading the github I didn’t see anything said to support that. Are you sure you’re not reading something into this that’s not there?

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I'll be honest I haven't dug into the GitHub transcripts.

    Are you sure you’re not reading something into this that’s not there?

    Absolutely not sure! In fact my first inclination leans towards the cynical "This is totally a pro-authoritarian virtue signal move." Because that's seemingly everything nowadays.

    But also I know things are seldom as they first seem. So I'm at least curious about this guy's actual motives. Coming out of nowhere just for this contribution is hecka sus though.

    I don't like any of it. I looked to the Internet and open source to escape that petulant normie-verse of endless rage and braindead legislation. And they're coming to assimilate us like they do everything else. :(

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Coming out of nowhere just for this contribution is hecka sus though.

    I’m fairly sure this is the first systemd pull request that many here have viewed. I wouldn’t say we’re coming out of nowhere.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Sorry I didn't articulate myself well here at all.

    What I meant was, I've heard this particular contributor's history is slim to none, and suddenly he shows up and PR's this age form into the kernel.

    That's what's weird.

    You're exactly right, most of us probably haven't looked at kernel PRs. Such a major component in such a major project isn't really a "My first contribution" territory, right?

    So it should raise some eyebrows when this guy just pops up and PRs it and it gets merged so quick.

    I'm not the most brilliant at this stuff so I'm happily open to being educated here if I'm way off, though.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Yeah I see your point. I feel like it's entirely reasonable, though. Like those who went to the PR, they saw something in the news and decided to do something about it with their abilities, throwing aside whether that's good for a moment. I certainly would not call the optional JSON schema for user records a critical component especially as no existing fields were modified, just new ones.

    (And FWIW it's systemd, very different from the kenrel, though I do feel like you know what you meant to talk about. systemd's code quality is relatively notorious anyways.)

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  • [+] -8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    The salient fact is that this change was made in order to “comply in advance” with totalitarian fuckery. It SIGNALS POLITICAL SUPPORT for it, and that’s not okay!

    On an individual level, absolutely do not comply in advance with fucked up laws.

    But as a technical professional working in regulated industries, you have to try to predict future legislation to remain compliant and permit your place of work to continue operating. Anything computer or network related takes time to update, and if you do it wrong you can bring your entire organization down. It's far better to be proactive and ensure that your organization is compliant with future legislation than it is to sit on your hands because you don't like this new change and then have to scramble to implement it at the 11th hour before your organization becomes noncompliant and may be forced to pause operating business. That's literally your job if you are, say, a SystemD developer working for RedHat/IBM

    This ire needs to be directed towards your local politicians (whether or not such age verification laws are in the process of being passed!), not towards career developers who happen to work on projects you care about

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    I'd agree with you, except that it's clear that the political systems we live under are flawed/non-functional. Non-compliance may be our next best shot at stopping these laws from getting any more traction.

    It's clear to me with the stance that the dev that closed the revert pull request that they aren't willing to form any resistance to these types of changes. Actually, the revert pull request stated that their request was due to a number of people discussing the matter and they ultimately decided that there could be harm inflicted, yet the dev 'poettering' decided to supercede this decision. Not only is this the first crack in a hold-the-line situation with other major FOSS projects refusing to make the change but also shows their hand at how they stance themselves politically.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    ...if you do it wrong you can bring your entire organization down.

    In theory, but also we just don't hear of this actually happening to organizations very much. Why? (I could be wrong, I don't constantly dig through news to find instances of this happening.)

    Everything from tax issues to personal data retention and protection policy gets overlooked all the time, with very real consequences, and we don't hear of those organizations getting "taken down" for it. (Like when Equifax lost all our Pii and were just like 'whoops.' They're still forcibly embedded in our lives anyway.)

    Maybe this would get used to bring down a tiny small business if it caught legal attention, but anything larger could likely shrug it off.

    Organizations don't seem to bother with such inconveniences unless it's actively enforced and audited. Is California really going to do that with this? Seems like it'd be prohibitively expensive.

    So it's just a little weird to me when legislation is proposed to infringe on end-users and suddenly there's this huge rush to "get compliant" ahead of time. It seems like a lot less IT due diligence and more virtue-signaling agreeance with totalitarian politics.

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  • [–] 45 points 7 months ago

    "It is too late, for I have already straw-manned your argument in a meme"

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  • [–] 118 points 7 months ago (22 children)

    Couldn't reply to me pointing out that this was merged, and was stated to be explicitly to support age verification laws, so you had to lie about it as a meme instead.

    Because thats what youre doing right now, lying and spreading misinformation. You can admit it.

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  • [+] -20 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    The birth date field that was added can be used by age verification processes, but it's not age verification itself.

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  • [–] 72 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    It was added specifically for the purpose of two state laws and Brazil.

    Trying to weasel it as "this doesnt implement it" is misinformation at best.

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  • [+] -24 points 7 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 24 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    sigh

    How do these laws do anything to "protect children"? And since they dont actually do that, which you may already be aware of, what do you think their purpose is?

    Then ask that question to yourself and think about whether the verification of an age is the issue with what's going on here, and why people are angry with systemd maintainers merging something that houses PII, for no other stated reason or potential use case than a law that will have zero ability to "protect children".

    Edit: and to be clear, laws that currently exist in two states, CA & CO, as well as Brazil. Thats it.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago

    Then ask that question to yourself and think about whether the verification of an age is the issue with what's going on here

    Verification is the issue. Or, rather, it would be if there was any verification here at all.

    I could put 1970-01-01 in that field no problem. Systemd has asked for precisely 0 additional information from any of its users, because it neither asks you to fill it in nor verifies that what you filled it with is correct. Just like the real name and location fields that were already present, which, might I remind you, are also PII.

    Systemd isn't the problem here. The laws are a problem and pissing in systemd's direction won't change that.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Okay
    Look at the pull request
    Tell me how it verifies anything. It's a field.
    I'm not arguing about the politics. The law is laughably inept at best and horrifyingly insidious at worst (and the truth is likely both at the same time).
    But again, read the change, read the comments, tell me what verification is happening.

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  • [+] [S] -46 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    Age verification could be a usecase. The PR in question just adds a optional date field labeled birth date. If you are mad about age verification (as you should be) feel free to direct your rage elsewhere.

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  • [–] 88 points 7 months ago

    Age verification could be a usecase.

    ITS THE EXPRESS PURPOSE AS WRITTEN IN THE PR.

    I will absolutely direct my anger and frustration where it belongs, which includes systemd along with the dumbasses pushing these laws.

    As well as you for spreading misinformation. Make no mistake, its deserved.

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  • [–] 38 points 7 months ago* (11 children)

    It enables another dead brained dev to push it further

    Little by little

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  • [+] [S] -36 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    It is just a arbitrary field. They could have a field for all sorts of questionable things and it wouldn't bother me.

    It is up to the people outside of systemd on how it gets used. Systemd is non political and will implement whatever features have a use case. They don't control the distro.

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  • [–] 27 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    Technology is inherently political.

    This is something that has been known and taught for decades.

    Learning towards bad faith pedant here.

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  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

    you don't know what inherent means, apparenty.

    fuck me, the "everything is political" crowd in here needs to touch some grass.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    That's actually an interesting question...is grass political ?

    By touching it, would we be signalling some sort of political stance ?

    Something to ponder.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    hi. slrpnk.net user here. yes. grass is political. when you mow your grass is determined by social contracts, the kind of grass you grow is reflective of the economic pressures you experience. when a city makes a green area, they must engage with politics on how to determine where and what the green area will be.

    since the dawn of civilization, aka growing grass for food purposes, grass growing has been both political in its decision making, as well as a driving force in politics.

    everything is political, and calling people who think that chronically online is goofy

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    i'm also on slrpnk.net (same username) though i'm much more a lurker over there.

    I'm all for the "everything is political" position, at least where animals are concerned (people are also animals).

    I wasn't asking that question in seriousness but your points are interesting.

    I'd think all the examples you provided are people politics , with a grass subject.

    I think what i meant was "is physical grass inherently political" but i haven't thought this all the way through tbh.

    I get that grass as a concept can be (and is) a political subject, but the physical grass itself ?

    Like, can physical objects be inherently political if you take them outside of external political influences (people stuff)?

    Hmm, i shall have to think about this one.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    The type of grass that is so predominant is because of stupid social views of what a house/yard is supposed to look like.

    The fact that a lot of HOA's and even some cities ban yards being used to grow anything but grass should tell you have political it is.

    As all mentioned by The D Quuuuuill.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    You apparently are incapable of critical thinking if you don't recognize political environments existing that drive the engineering of the technology in question. Thus being, wait for it, inherent.

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  • [–] -1 points 7 months ago

    sure, many things influence what technology is being developed, politics, culture, economy. That does not make it inherent, ie. inseparable from it. That would mean that you can only have technology where politics play a relevant role, which is obviously not true.

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  • [–] 20 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    Well I still don't dang like it I'll tell you hwat.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago
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