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I foresee an astronomical amount of people born at unix epoch to appear if it becomes a required field lol
October 15th, 1582 is another one you see often. (Edit: Some date systems use this as 0 because it was the start of the proleptic Gregorian calendar.)
Don't forget December 31st, 1969 which you'll see when computers adjust UTC midnight at the Unix epoch to local time in the western hemisphere.
Since it's about birth dates, shouldn't it be an astrological amount of people?
That might just make it easier for them to put them all on a list. Use random dates instead, then they have to identify you and confirm you're not using your real date to put you on that list.
There’s a disconnect over this in that one side looks at the present data and other takes a possible result from that into account. (dividing people into groups…for the sake of argument ok?)
Now from strictly an IT perspective, this is indeed pretty meaningless. One line of code that stores one piece of data. Who cares right?
From the other side you take the very hot topics of politics and privacy into account (two things that are also very front and center with most of the Lemmy crowd afaik).
Because it can start by just one line of code but where will it end? Personally I’d rather be over cautious and assume the worst.
I mean look at the story of cookies. Back in the 90’s they were a small benign piece of data and look how that turned out. Our entire world is influenced by it today to great extend.
Personally I’d rather be overly cautious.
People need to remember that slippery slope is a very specific fallacy where a hyperbolic chain of events is not backed up by supporting evidence.
If we allow gay marriage people will want to marry their dogs!
While none of us can possibly know where this ends, this is preemptive compliance with privacy invading measures that are practically indistinguishable from the kind of overreaching control desired by malicious parties. This is a much stronger case and even IF this is the last step, there's no reason to take it in the first place.
It's morally correct to loudly object at every step, that's how you fight this.
The thing to also keep in mind is that this shit is pushed now by Facebook and politicians, none of whom care a single shit about kids, as they so loudly claim. That alone is a huge red flag as it's always "but think about the poor children!!" that is used for the most nefarious shit being pushed.
This has been in the works for a long time (I've seen attempts for this at least a decade ago) and now it finally passed in some places,. meaning that it only got easier to soon implement it everywhere
Yes, it's a slippery slope argument but that slope is right there in front of us
What's your point about bringing up the fallacy? The people lobbying and implementing these laws are pretty vocal about building a panopticon.
One line of code
Heh, look at the merge again.
It surprised me what a mess systemd code is.
Hell no, we didn't fall for anything. This is a real problem with real and far-reaching consequences, associated to multiple legislative attacks against privacy etc, pushed by corporates and religious groups.
YOU fell for the "think of the children" lie and "It's just a text field" BS. No, this is far worse than just a text field.
Do you feel the same about the "user name" field? Do you consider that to also be the end of privacy and the road to totalitarianism?
Problem is “why now”, but also comparison to username field is not really valid - username is actually useful, what’s the point of birth date apart from age verification? You need some kind of username to converse to fellow engineers, birth date is completely unnecessary for that
Are you saying that you're putting your real name in the "user name" field? And feel that you have to?
What's the difference between inputting a bogus name or a nickname in the "user name" field and selecting 1970-01-01 as your DoB?
You need some kind of username to converse to fellow engineers
On your OS?? No, you don't. You select a username on whatever system you pick for said comms, has nothing to do with the OS account's "user name" field.
A username field isn't for your real name, it's for a username and it has always been for that. Stop being intentionally obtuse.
What's to stop them from using all of the required user fields and then running a background fingerprinting check and then using that fingerprint every single time you visit a site? It doesn't have to be your real date of birth. What matters is that it's a consistent info for your user account so that they can identify who you are. Obviously there are other ways to fingerprint a user, but this just makes it easier to do so, and it's another unnecessary datapoint for "them" to use.
People are defending this with such fervor, too, that it really makes a person doubt whether they're even arguing against actual humans. Like, I can see why people would be against general change or against privacy invasion, but why would someone care so much about defending a date of birth field?
A username field isn’t for your real name, it’s for a username and it has always been for that. Stop being intentionally obtuse.
I'm not talking about the "username" field.
I'm talking about the "Full name", or "User name", or "Name" field in the OS - name depends on the language version and the OS itself. Stop being intentionally obtuse.
What’s to stop them from using all of the required user fields and then running a background fingerprinting check and then using that fingerprint every single time you visit a site?
What...?
First of all: the OS username is not shared with the website.
Secondly: websites already do fingerprinting, what are you talking about?
People are defending this with such fervor, too
Yeah, "stop overreacting" is such incredible fervour!
but why would someone care so much about defending a date of birth field?
I could not care less. I just find it weird that you guys panic about it so much, to the point of there being dozens of new systemd forks, just because a new optional field was added.
The source is the source: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/acb6624fa19ddd68f9433fb0838db119fe18c3ed
Takes a birth date for the user in ISO 8601 calendar date format. The earliest representable year is 1900. If an empty string is passed the birth date is reset to unset.
That's it. That's all it does.
Whatever was discussed in the PR, the code does precisely nothing to implement any kind of verification. It's just an optional birth date field, like tons of electronics have had forever.
earliest representable year is 1900
(Time to set it to) literally 1984!
So they’re introducing a system where a users age can be verified?
No. They are not.
It is an optional field that does no semblance of checking its veracity. Again, like basically every bit of electronics has had forever.
I just don't see how it's any different than my Sony PSP having an optional birthday field. Or oldschool forums having one. It can't possibly affect me, or anyone who's concerned about it.
If systemd starts talking about bundling face scanners or whatever they actually need to verify someone's age, and then tons of linux systems start requiring it, then I will be gravely concerned.
ah yeah because all of our digital clocks, smartphones, smart watches, microwaves, washing machines, TVs, and.. what else stores user age in a standardized manner? oh, you say none of these and no other things either?
I don’t think anyone who read even the first paragraph of the article (at least the one i read) would say they are doing verification. They are simply adding a field for data to be housed if anyone wants to opt in. Instead of putting it in 20 different spots/apps it’s in one place that any third party can reference.
it’s in one place that any third party can reference.
But why would I want that?
Even if you ignore the whole "this doesn't verify anything" discussion, why would I want to give third parties easy access to personal and potentially sensitive information? I personally am not interested in simplifying data collection for corporate entities who definitely do not give a shit about the safety of my personal data, let alone hypothetical children. I do not know why this data collection needs or would be desired to be implemented within systemd, besides being a direct response to age verification laws saying its an OS providers responsibility to collect it. Arbitrary data collection by private entities is not "useful". My personal data has no business being referenced by random asshats that ask for it. There are so few things in the world that "justify" needing my age that I would suggest it would be easier to make my birth date a permanent data point on my PC. Same goes for the other personal details that systemd already supports. Crazy to imagine anyone actually using those on a personal machine.
"While our lawyers are fighting it in court, we decided to whip up the barest minimum viable proof of concept so that if it does come to pass, at least it'll be on our terms, and not a rushed piece of easily-exploitable garbage pushed out at the last second" the systemd team, probably
Edit: source, two weeks ago, the pull request conversation: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954#issuecomment-4032221990
That's the question: would they fight it? From all I've seen so far, they wouldn't.
I'm Jeremy from System76. We are in talks with legislators and there are likely to be amendments to the age verification bills, as well as conflicting requirements in different jurisdictions. It may even be the case that open source operating systems are exempted entirely. I detailed this on the xdg mailing list here:
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2026-March/014797.html
I have other concerns about this specific implementation. By relying on systemd, which is decidedly unportable to non-Linux operating systems, and not used across all Linux operating systems either, it will force at least one alternative implementation to exist. If these implementations end up having to collect jurisdiction specific requirements, that makes it much harder for compliance.
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954#issuecomment-4032221990
Yeah, I've read that discussion a few days ago. That specific post seemed reasonable, but that was a comment from outside the core systemd team, wasn't it? As far as I understood all of this, different people took the decision to merge, without coordinating their efforts with those of the corporate linux distros (Pop!, Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora, (Open)SUSE).
Its a nullable field, chill. It's exactly the same as a Linux distro installer asking for your first name for account setup and the moral outrage is genuinely embarrassing
Edit: not to mention that good system design reduces redundant data. If programs want your birthdate, they'll either repeatedly ask you or go to a central source. If you don't want to give out that information, you enter a null value or you put something random. The only difference is now you don't have to repeatedly do that
Good system design doesn't do things without me asking it to. I'll gladly manually re enter my birth date for an external service if its required, which to be clear, should be as close to 0 times as possible. What, should I keep all my job application info in the initialization system too? Because a website I'm on might ask for it at some point? Don't want to be too redundant.
Literally this field serves no purpose other than to build compliance with the surveillance state. No end user asked for this. Like I said, can't imagine any end user making use of the existing systemd fields either. But those also didn't get any attention because they weren't made as a reaction to threats by a malicious regime.
It is just a optional field
Be mad at lawmakers not developers who are trying to make the best of a shitty situation
It was also an option to not make a useless field. Not like this self reported dob is going to cut it for the existing age verification laws as is exists now. But I can be mad at people in a position of community production for not having a spine, too.
How is this supposed to be making the best of the situation anyway? It accomplished nothing but piss off the community and signify to authoritarians that open source developers are ready to bend over for them. Simply threaten unenforceable fines across the world and suddenly everything is hopeless. Better get ready to comply, its inevitable! Its pathetic. Ageless Linux might be performative bs, but at least its critical of this over reach instead of intentionally signalling compliance in advance.
I speak only for myself, but I’m not mad at any developers for following with this. I wish they wouldn’t, but I can’t blame them for following the law to protect themselves.
I still think this is bullshit and just going down the slippery slope. The next thing is “this value doesn’t do anything. Now we need a law that actually checks an ID!” And it just keeps getting worse and worse.
Don’t give them an inch on any of this bullshit. And by them, I do mean the governments trying these stupid laws that, at best, waste taxpayer money and valuable time spent on other worthwhile things.
Nobody gives a fuck about your weaseling technicalities. The salient fact is that this change was made in order to "comply in advance" with totalitarian fuckery. It SIGNALS POLITICAL SUPPORT for it, and that's not okay!
I studied at the PR in question and that's not the conclusion I arrive at. Let me try to explain how this looks to me.
Also keep in mind, I do think we absolutely need to keep the political pressure on and push back on identity-gating policies with all our collective might. In that light the PR itself does the two things I'd absolutely require here: one, it allows the user to put whatever value they want in that field, including none at all, and two, it disallows all apps from reading that field without the user's active permission.
Basically it's a superficially valid implementation of a bullshit requirement that still leaves all the power in the user's hands and therefore renders the requirement meaningless. Or in other words, a huge middle finger to the proponents of age-checking.
Mind you, I feel there's also value in loud non-compliance and I'm glad some are taking that road -- keep it up, folks. But I'm leery of demands that only one single approach be taken. This needs to be fought on every front we can. And to me the PR in question reads like an effective defensive move.
That's something I wondered about the person who implemented this too, I wonder if it was an attempt to install a bare minimum to say "There. We did it. Leave us alone." Instead of leaving it up to the government to force the issue, and he's getting absolutely raked over the coals for it.
If that's the case, I feel terribly bad about this backfiring so hard on him. I do think we should be putting up a lot more resistance before resorting to something like this though.
Some others have also suggested that this was done out of spite, however after reading the github I didn’t see anything said to support that. Are you sure you’re not reading something into this that’s not there?
I'll be honest I haven't dug into the GitHub transcripts.
Are you sure you’re not reading something into this that’s not there?
Absolutely not sure! In fact my first inclination leans towards the cynical "This is totally a pro-authoritarian virtue signal move." Because that's seemingly everything nowadays.
But also I know things are seldom as they first seem. So I'm at least curious about this guy's actual motives. Coming out of nowhere just for this contribution is hecka sus though.
I don't like any of it. I looked to the Internet and open source to escape that petulant normie-verse of endless rage and braindead legislation. And they're coming to assimilate us like they do everything else. :(
Coming out of nowhere just for this contribution is hecka sus though.
I’m fairly sure this is the first systemd pull request that many here have viewed. I wouldn’t say we’re coming out of nowhere.
Sorry I didn't articulate myself well here at all.
What I meant was, I've heard this particular contributor's history is slim to none, and suddenly he shows up and PR's this age form into the kernel.
That's what's weird.
You're exactly right, most of us probably haven't looked at kernel PRs. Such a major component in such a major project isn't really a "My first contribution" territory, right?
So it should raise some eyebrows when this guy just pops up and PRs it and it gets merged so quick.
I'm not the most brilliant at this stuff so I'm happily open to being educated here if I'm way off, though.
Yeah I see your point. I feel like it's entirely reasonable, though. Like those who went to the PR, they saw something in the news and decided to do something about it with their abilities, throwing aside whether that's good for a moment. I certainly would not call the optional JSON schema for user records a critical component especially as no existing fields were modified, just new ones.
(And FWIW it's systemd, very different from the kenrel, though I do feel like you know what you meant to talk about. systemd's code quality is relatively notorious anyways.)
I agree that not everything is what it seems at first, I just fear it’s wishful thinking in this case.
The salient fact is that this change was made in order to “comply in advance” with totalitarian fuckery. It SIGNALS POLITICAL SUPPORT for it, and that’s not okay!
On an individual level, absolutely do not comply in advance with fucked up laws.
But as a technical professional working in regulated industries, you have to try to predict future legislation to remain compliant and permit your place of work to continue operating. Anything computer or network related takes time to update, and if you do it wrong you can bring your entire organization down. It's far better to be proactive and ensure that your organization is compliant with future legislation than it is to sit on your hands because you don't like this new change and then have to scramble to implement it at the 11th hour before your organization becomes noncompliant and may be forced to pause operating business. That's literally your job if you are, say, a SystemD developer working for RedHat/IBM
This ire needs to be directed towards your local politicians (whether or not such age verification laws are in the process of being passed!), not towards career developers who happen to work on projects you care about
Or we could direct the ire at both. There's no shortage of ire here.
I'd agree with you, except that it's clear that the political systems we live under are flawed/non-functional. Non-compliance may be our next best shot at stopping these laws from getting any more traction.
It's clear to me with the stance that the dev that closed the revert pull request that they aren't willing to form any resistance to these types of changes. Actually, the revert pull request stated that their request was due to a number of people discussing the matter and they ultimately decided that there could be harm inflicted, yet the dev 'poettering' decided to supercede this decision. Not only is this the first crack in a hold-the-line situation with other major FOSS projects refusing to make the change but also shows their hand at how they stance themselves politically.
...if you do it wrong you can bring your entire organization down.
In theory, but also we just don't hear of this actually happening to organizations very much. Why? (I could be wrong, I don't constantly dig through news to find instances of this happening.)
Everything from tax issues to personal data retention and protection policy gets overlooked all the time, with very real consequences, and we don't hear of those organizations getting "taken down" for it. (Like when Equifax lost all our Pii and were just like 'whoops.' They're still forcibly embedded in our lives anyway.)
Maybe this would get used to bring down a tiny small business if it caught legal attention, but anything larger could likely shrug it off.
Organizations don't seem to bother with such inconveniences unless it's actively enforced and audited. Is California really going to do that with this? Seems like it'd be prohibitively expensive.
So it's just a little weird to me when legislation is proposed to infringe on end-users and suddenly there's this huge rush to "get compliant" ahead of time. It seems like a lot less IT due diligence and more virtue-signaling agreeance with totalitarian politics.
Couldn't reply to me pointing out that this was merged, and was stated to be explicitly to support age verification laws, so you had to lie about it as a meme instead.
Because thats what youre doing right now, lying and spreading misinformation. You can admit it.
The birth date field that was added can be used by age verification processes, but it's not age verification itself.
It was added specifically for the purpose of two state laws and Brazil.
Trying to weasel it as "this doesnt implement it" is misinformation at best.
Okay.
How does it verify?
sigh
How do these laws do anything to "protect children"? And since they dont actually do that, which you may already be aware of, what do you think their purpose is?
Then ask that question to yourself and think about whether the verification of an age is the issue with what's going on here, and why people are angry with systemd maintainers merging something that houses PII, for no other stated reason or potential use case than a law that will have zero ability to "protect children".
Edit: and to be clear, laws that currently exist in two states, CA & CO, as well as Brazil. Thats it.
Then ask that question to yourself and think about whether the verification of an age is the issue with what's going on here
Verification is the issue. Or, rather, it would be if there was any verification here at all.
I could put 1970-01-01 in that field no problem. Systemd has asked for precisely 0 additional information from any of its users, because it neither asks you to fill it in nor verifies that what you filled it with is correct. Just like the real name and location fields that were already present, which, might I remind you, are also PII.
Systemd isn't the problem here. The laws are a problem and pissing in systemd's direction won't change that.
Okay
Look at the pull request
Tell me how it verifies anything. It's a field.
I'm not arguing about the politics. The law is laughably inept at best and horrifyingly insidious at worst (and the truth is likely both at the same time).
But again, read the change, read the comments, tell me what verification is happening.
Age verification could be a usecase. The PR in question just adds a optional date field labeled birth date. If you are mad about age verification (as you should be) feel free to direct your rage elsewhere.
Age verification could be a usecase.
ITS THE EXPRESS PURPOSE AS WRITTEN IN THE PR.
I will absolutely direct my anger and frustration where it belongs, which includes systemd along with the dumbasses pushing these laws.
As well as you for spreading misinformation. Make no mistake, its deserved.
It enables another dead brained dev to push it further
Little by little
It is just a arbitrary field. They could have a field for all sorts of questionable things and it wouldn't bother me.
It is up to the people outside of systemd on how it gets used. Systemd is non political and will implement whatever features have a use case. They don't control the distro.
Technology is inherently political.
This is something that has been known and taught for decades.
Learning towards bad faith pedant here.
you don't know what inherent means, apparenty.
fuck me, the "everything is political" crowd in here needs to touch some grass.
That's actually an interesting question...is grass political ?
By touching it, would we be signalling some sort of political stance ?
Something to ponder.
hi. slrpnk.net user here. yes. grass is political. when you mow your grass is determined by social contracts, the kind of grass you grow is reflective of the economic pressures you experience. when a city makes a green area, they must engage with politics on how to determine where and what the green area will be.
since the dawn of civilization, aka growing grass for food purposes, grass growing has been both political in its decision making, as well as a driving force in politics.
everything is political, and calling people who think that chronically online is goofy
i'm also on slrpnk.net (same username) though i'm much more a lurker over there.
I'm all for the "everything is political" position, at least where animals are concerned (people are also animals).
I wasn't asking that question in seriousness but your points are interesting.
I'd think all the examples you provided are people politics , with a grass subject.
I think what i meant was "is physical grass inherently political" but i haven't thought this all the way through tbh.
I get that grass as a concept can be (and is) a political subject, but the physical grass itself ?
Like, can physical objects be inherently political if you take them outside of external political influences (people stuff)?
Hmm, i shall have to think about this one.
The type of grass that is so predominant is because of stupid social views of what a house/yard is supposed to look like.
The fact that a lot of HOA's and even some cities ban yards being used to grow anything but grass should tell you have political it is.
As all mentioned by The D Quuuuuill.
You apparently are incapable of critical thinking if you don't recognize political environments existing that drive the engineering of the technology in question. Thus being, wait for it, inherent.
sure, many things influence what technology is being developed, politics, culture, economy. That does not make it inherent, ie. inseparable from it. That would mean that you can only have technology where politics play a relevant role, which is obviously not true.
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954

They don’t control the distro.
And google doesn't officially control web standards, but their monopoly on browser usage means they have "effective" control, for the most part at least.
See the manifest v3 changes for extensions.
Can't tell if you're a bad faith pedant or just indescribably naive.

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