Fork time? Maybe all the anti-systemd zealots were right all along...

Edit: To address whether it is likely that this change will affect users: Gnome is planning a stronger dependence on userdb, the part of systemd where this change is being implemented. https://blogs.gnome.org/adrianvovk/2025/06/10/gnome-systemd-dependencies/

Final Edit: The PR has been merged into main.

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[–] 157 points 7 months ago (14 children)

Unless it is fought, this corporate-driven rot will burrow all the way down to the sub-processor TEE/TPM and all the way up to the web browser/app.

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  • [+] 26 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (13 children)
  • [–] 96 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    🤷

    In a few years, we may be smuggling in contraband Chinese RISC-V computers.

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  • [–] 32 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Email your legislators telling them that parents already have access to network block tools, these laws won’t stop the problem anyway (run through a vpn), they’re a free speech nightmare, they’re collecting more data on American citizens when America has data breaches losing data every few days, and Congress literally studied this twenty years ago and decided it wasn’t a good idea then, what makes it a good idea now?

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  • [–] 28 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I'll never buy a computer that can't be run without this shit. If that means I run what I have until it breaks and then never have a PC again then that's what I'll do

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    The last computer I bought (a couple of years back) was a decade old PC, the price was €10 or so. I needed to add RAM, SSD, and used it for a couple of years as a Fedora Workstation desktop. It was plenty powerful for most of my needs. I’m not too worried about it. I think I can survive on a machine like that.

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  • [–] 51 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    echo "18+" > ~/.age_rc

    Am I compliant with California's law now? Apps can use the POSIX API to access my age.

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  • [+] -12 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Yes and that's fine and everyone freaking out is being dumb.

    There are fascist governments demanding genital inspection for playing highschool sports and they're losing their shit over an accounts API returning an unverified age bracket!

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  • [–] 32 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    There are fascist governments demanding genital inspection for playing highschool sports

    • That is already going on in the very same country we’re discussing.
    • “Things could be even worse, so until things are just as bad as that, don’t complain or try to stop it from getting worse.”
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  • [+] -11 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    If you yell that the everything is on fire, over an API that doesn't do verification, it's less effective when you yell the same thing over real issues.

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    That’s a poor analogy, because nobody is lying, saying things are on fire that aren’t.

    We weren’t born yesterday—or at least I wasn’t. We know where this is going, and it’s folly to wait until almost the end before pushing back.

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  • [–] 85 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    i think it's really wholesome that a lot of 126 year old people use linux

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  • [–] 56 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    While I think it's amazing that not only are 95% of Linux users 56 years of age, but they even share the same birth date!

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  • [+] 9 points 7 months ago* (4 children)
  • [–] 85 points 7 months ago*

    You mean they're complying with Meta's age verification at OS level lobbying?

    https://github.com/upper-up/meta-lobbying-and-other-findings

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  • [–] 113 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

    Something feels fishy... The user who made this pull request has more than doubled his contributions to various repositories since January (from 20–400 to more than 1100), and this is his first pull request in the systemd repo.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    This is a big weakness in FOSS communities, hell, in capitalist existence. People with resources can afford to spend their own time or hire someone else to focus on their contributions like a full time job while most honest contributers will be doing it during their free time because they need to pay bills and such.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Fishy how? As in a state-level backdooring like was the case with XZ and Jia Tan or are you weary of something else?

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago

    That memory surely also prompted this feeling. It's just that Meta seems to be putting a lot of effort everywhere to push for this. Not so difficult to put, or corrupt, or push, people in dev communities and repos.

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  • [–] 27 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Just write a shell script that changes the birthday every few minutes lol

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  • [–] 126 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    In my opinion, storing a date is pretty much irrelevant unless there's a process that validates the supplied date, otherwise every Linux user was born on 1/1/1, if not, an administrator can "fix" that

    Furthermore, that systemd thinks that it's the place to store such information is in my opinion beyond absurd.

    Who appointed that project the source of age truth in the Linux ecosystem? What discussion was there, who was consulted and where was the vote?

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  • [–] 35 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    You're right that asking a user for a date is next to useless. However, that isn't a reason to not fight this stuff. Asking the user for the date is step one to getting people accept it. After that they'll point out that people were lying, and they'll need our government ID to verify (and link us to activity). It's all a step towards a surveillance network tracking every move you make on your computer.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago

    I understand your point and agree that this is the thin end of the wedge.

    What we're doing here is discussing the phenomenon and I'm highlighting some concerns.

    I believe that this is how you get a dialogue happening which will effect change, which is what we're both advocating.

    I think that age verification is about surveillance rather than protecting children and I think it should be fought at every level.

    This is me contributing to that fight.

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  • [–] 31 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    1/1/1

    every linux user is jesus confirmed

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  • [–] [S] 84 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Exactly. This is a massive overreach, and it is crazy that Poettering is even considering merging this.

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  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    What is the alternative to systemd? I'm sort of a linux noob when it comes to this deeper level stuff.

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  • [–] 18 points 7 months ago* (7 children)

    SystemD isnt exactly a program but more of a group of projects, the only "core" SystemD software on most distros is the init system... Which you can run completely without SystemD's UserDB system (the part being talked about in the post).

    Basically this means you as a user dont have to do anything but switch away from projects that depend on SystemD's UserDB (like Gnome), not SystemD as a whole

    However if you do want to move away from SystemD as a whole you can replace your init system with another one, gentoo's wiki is a good starting point for learning a bit more: wiki. Personally I love using openrc but of you have no need to touch init files... Dont switch

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago

    Basically this means you as a user dont have to do anything but switch away from projects that depend on SystemD's UserDB (like Gnome), not SystemD as a whole

    You can also just... not put your PII into UserDB. It can store clear names, mail addresses, postal addresses and now birthdates... but it can also just serve as an interface to /etc/passwd. Which conveniently also works with LDAP accounts (unlike your hand written /etc/passwd parser) if you're an organisation that uses LDAP.

    This is the entirety of what UserDB knows about me:

    userdbctl user --output=json $(whoami)
    {
            "userName" : "sky",
            "uid" : 1000,
            "gid" : 100,
            "homeDirectory" : "/users/sky/home"
            "shell" : "/run/current-system/sw/bin/fish"
    }
    

    I don't expect that to change with this PR.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    mine doesn't appear to be? it says installed but disabled. unless i'm looking at the wrong service which is entirely possible.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    It appears to be active (running)

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    this is what i was going off of. i'm running cachyos (arch). am i reading wrong?

    https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/763290/what-is-the-preset-field-in-systemctl-status

    It just says that when installed it was enabled, and it has been disabled later on. As for this apache server just after install Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/httpd.service; disabled; vendor preset: disabled) – admstg Commented Dec 7, 2023 at 10:50

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    Thanks for explaining it a bit more. I moved from Windows 11 to CachyOS (limine bootloader and kde plasma DE) sometime last year and that may be a bit above my paygrade right now. Based on what I'm seeing in the Arch Wiki it would seem that quite a few systemd components are in use for my distro.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    Most distributions use systemd but there are still distros and other unix-like operating systems that are using something else. However, they are not "user friendly" and will probably not be what most people are looking for.

    Slackware uses its own init system and never used systemd but it has the reputation of being difficult to use. Gentoo also lets users choose between systemd and OpenRC. Alpine Linux uses OpenRC too. There's more than a dozen distros not using systemd, but again, probably not what most people want to use. It's also possible to replace systemd with OpenRC on some distros, but it possibly, probably, might cause some quirks.

    Otherwise, there are other unix-like operating systems. Debian GNU Hurd also has its own init system but it's not using the Linux kernel, so it's a different beast. OpenBSD and FreeBSD also have their own init system, but not Linux. And AFAIK there's no such thing as modern gaming on those.

    There are ways not to use systemd, but realistically speaking, it will probably not be worth it unless you're really militant about this. I started with Slackware at the end of the 90ies, I know how to compile a kernel, and tried GNU Hurd at some point, but I will not change something unless it's really implemented deeper into the general software. It's frustrating that the systemd devs are "collaborating", but we'll see what happens after a few rounds of updates.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

    Just use something simple with systemd. The Linux community is its own worst enemy, in inviting people to come to Linux because it's so simple and beginner friendly, then the trap snaps shut and they tell you to pick a distro and all you have to do is decide on either gnome, plasma or cinnamon, and between arch and debian and ubuntu, and between snap and Flatpack, between Vim, Emacs, nano, and micro, between Wayland and the other one, between systemd and violent self-fellagelation, and whatever you choose, make sure it's FOSS and exactly what the next person on the forum used and as pure as the driven snow or you'll be bullied, belittled, and trolled by egomaniacs, elitists, and gatekeepers until you fawn like a thrashed housewife who 'only gets hit when she fucks up', or you give up and install windows again.

    Just use whatever works for you, makes your life easier, and avoid the Linux purity circlejerk. When it stops working for you, use something else. Go your own way.

    If you don't know what systemd does and you aren't affected by this, use it. If there's closed source software you wanna run, run it. If you want to install a snap, do it. If you like using VS code, install it on your Linux, it works great. You will never be pure enough to satisfy the Linux community.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Okay but not really? Systemd does not really provide that much usability that any other init system + elogind doesn't. The benefit to the FOSS environment is that we, as users and developers, can starve out bad actors.

    Want Nix but don't like systemd? Guix. Want Arch but don't like systemd? Void. You know what "compile" means and don't want systemd? Gentoo.

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  • [–] 35 points 7 months ago

    Just think of all those Azure and AWS VMs needing age verification as they're spooled up, destroyed and receated every few minutes...

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I am a Coloradan; I have already called all 4 cosponsors of the bill here. What can I do now? Does anyone know which orgs are fighting against this? We have a petition process to get constitutional amendments on the ballot. My dream would be to collect enough signatures to get this constitutional amendment on the next ballot but I think the deadline for submitting the text (prior to collecting sigs) is late this month:

    "No form of AI or ID-based age verification shall be used as a condition for granting Colorado residents access to a website, internet service, or operating system. Age gates that rely exclusively on user-reported age may continue to be used in their current form to inform users that a website may not be appropriate for all users. Colorado recognizes that parents are the responsible party for what their children access online and that requiring ID verification for access to computing resources or digital resources is a violation of free speech and freedom of inquiry."

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    I feel like the only way we can do anything about this is for us to have more money than the companies pushing for these changes, which is obviously not going to be possible... I'm not sure what else can be done.

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  • [–] 121 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    I was ambivalent about systemd up until now. If this gets merged I'm moving to a non-systemd distro. I do not live in California or even the USA. I do not want age verification garbage in my OS.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Consider PCLinuxOS: they're an RPM-based mandriva (mandrake/conectiva) derivative with really great and wide compatibility in stacks without the 'modules' shitfest RH started after no one remembered what 'alternatives' was for.

    They don't use systemd, but their installation is a bit shite as it's a "live CD" installer -- they pruned out the proper templatey install that mandriva has. But so far that's the biggest issue. If they can get off networkManager we'll be even better off, though.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    There's also Linux MX, Debian based, on their latest release they added systemd as an option, but you can choose sysv at first boot if you want, and that's what will be installed and used.

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  • [+] -7 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    Good news: this is not age verification. This is an optional DoB field on a user profile.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    It's being added as a response to the age verification laws with the intended purpose to provide the age signal.

    It's age verification/attestation.

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  • [+] -7 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    No. It's a date of birth. You're right that age verification comes next, but this is not it. Had this field been present before, none of this would matter.

    Contact your representative, not your local FOSS maintainer.

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Contact your representative, not your local FOSS maintainer.

    They're not a US citizen.

    They also didn't say they would contact the maintainers. They said they'd just change distro to a non-systemd one.

    And you're nothing but silly trying to act like this isn't about age "verification". We know it is, because it comes in response to the new california law

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  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    If you're (or they) not a US citizen (or Brazilian) why would you care if they comply with local laws?

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Contact your representative

    Right, so that they can ask if I'm stoned or stupid for asking them to affect laws in another country?

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  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Then this doesn't impact you in any form. (Especially since it's just a DoB).
    You can continue to whine but frankly I don't see the point then.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    Of course it does. This particular change may seem innocuous in itself, but the idea of compliance with ridiculous laws like this one, in one jurisdiction, being implemented in a project used globally will result in compromising everyone's privacy/security, regardless of whether they are even subject to that law or not.

    If anything, it's more troubling for those outside the relevant jurisdiction, since we get 0 say on the laws, and have no actual reason to comply.

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    [–] 16 points 7 months ago

    This is all to inch us towards an eventual Digital ID, similar to how we have a driver's license for a car.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Does BSD use systemd? I always wanted to try it and if this keeps up I might take the plunge.

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    There's systemdless Linux distros! I used Artix Linux with no issues.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    Artix (Arch w/out systemd) supports many inits. I'd recommend dinit (which is very easy to use) or s6 (which seems more stable on Artix, but less user friendly helper tools). Both are very fast, faster than the other inits.

    • There is also Chimera Linux which uses dinit and is very clean imho. A very modern take on making a traditional Linux distro which does things well and uses clean and simple OS software stack.
    • Void Linux uses runit
    • Devuan (Debian w/out systemd) you can use sysV, OpenRC, or runit
    • And obviously there is Gentoo, which supports using OpenRC, with unofficial community guides for some other inits.
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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago

    This is the first time I've cared about the whole systemd debate, so that's something I guess. Not interested in anything that kowtows to this age verification nonsense

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  • [–] 36 points 7 months ago

    what a fucking bootlicker

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    It's so hilarious that the most recent thing that's happened on this shitty PR is a request for Claude to review their code.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago*

    Well, 2 out of 6 people have approved now and the person who requested for a review from Claude is Poettering himself.

    Not sure I'm a fan of AI being used in the development of systemd, but at least for now it seems they don't want it to be built by stupid AI pull requests:

    If you use an AI code generator such as ChatGPT, Claude, Copilot, Llama or a similar tool, this must be disclosed in the commit messages by adding e.g. Co-developed-by: Claude Opus 4.6 noreply@anthropic.com and pull request description.

    The quality bar for contributions to this project is high, and unlikely to be met by an unattended AI tool, without significant manual corrections. Always thoroughly review and correct any such outputs, for example ensuring it accurately follows Coding Style at the very minimum. Please do not fire-and-forget pull requests without any human intervention and review, as that will likely result in low-quality results that will not be accepted, and if done repeatedly, may result in the account being blocked. As with any other submissions, authors are responsible for doing due diligence and ensuring their submissions are compatible with the project's license as documented in LICENSES/README.md.

    As a guideline, if someone notices that a contribution (code, issues, comments) was made with the help of AI, there was likely a lack of human review of the AI generated output.

    I can see it being useful to invoke an AI review in addition to humans reviewing, just in case it catches something nobody else did.

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