Be it books, movies, documentaries, or even music. I feel like I have people around me whom wish to fight violence with violence, with mentalities like "we should just counter-invade and show them who's boss" or "I'm not afraid to fight for what I believe in", showing a clear intent against an "enemy".

"The enemy" is such a dehumanizing perspective, and only breeds further animosity. I wish for them to see that we all manage to find justifications for our actions, but that doesn't make it worthy of just any sacrifice.

I recently saw the Norwegian movie Max Manus, which is about real events during WW2.

Tap for spoilerHe survives, but with almost none of his friends, and after the war he struggles with alcoholism and nightmares for the rest of his life.

It left me with a feeling of despite "victory", many people paid with more than just their life. And this is the feeling I wish others to feel, just for a bit, and ponder if "doing the right thing" really is the best thing.

No one should want conflict, and I wish to emphasize just how much we really should try and avoid warmongering. I've seen uncensored videos from modern wars, been in the military, had a great grandfather who fought in WW2 (who also struggled with nightmares and PTSD until his natural death), and all of it makes me dread the potential of the horrors that happen to everyone involved in an armed conflict, especially the innocents and the kids...

So, any suggestions for media that conveys this in a way that makes one really reflect?

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[–] 22 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

All quiet on the western front (movie from 2022) feels like your example a bit without the post-war consequences. Grave of the firefly (anime) is on my watch list and is very anti-war from what I understand. Catch 22 maybe. The Wars by Timothy Findley felt very anti-war but is a tough read. The cruel sea was a good read. Vinland sagas first season is very good, lots of action but some really hard hitting scenes for an anime.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    just make sure you’re in the right mindset when you watch Grave of the Fireflies – great movie BUT it is an emotional gut-punch

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah I'm kinda terrified to watch that one, not gonna lie. I get an emotional overreaction just looking at the cover...

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    Absolutely worth it though. Maybe watch it together with somebody so you can do some adhoc mutual therapy lol.

    I love Ghibli movies so much because they tell stories very well, they are never black and white, and they always make me feel and ponder things. (And all that with beautiful art and music).

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Das Boot, it is the classic movie about German Uboats from the perspective of the Uboat crew.

    It does not glorify, it does not condemn, but the one thing that stays with you is the feeling of futility.

    They did all the terrible and heroic things, cheered at hitting convoys, let allied seamen drown because of their orders, escaped again and again, showed fanatism and self-reflection, panic and comradeship, and in the end, when they come back to their home base, it just doesn't matter.

    spoilerAs they arrive, half-afloat, battered, relieved and enthusiastic about being home, while a marching band plays in the background, they get hit with an air raid. Bombs fall, all die, only the narrator (war reporter) survives to tell the tale. All for nothing. All of it completely futile.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    pretty much every war movie

    the classics have got Saving Private Ryan, Nolan's got Dunkirk, Best Cinematography's got 1917, Ghibli's got Grave of the Fireflies (released same day as Totoro even)...

    for anti-war that's not depressing, there's also AFAIK the over-the-top Helldivers

    for things that feel "clean" instead of bloody there's the elegant video game Nier: Automata

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Pretty much every war movie glorifies war haha. Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, and 1917 are famous because of their awesome looking action scenes. All those films glorify war and convey a sense of heroism, urgency, and righteousness for people involved in a war. If the director's wanted to make a film that didn't glorify war, they would've focused on the shitty parts of war instead of showing the audience all the cool heroic things soldiers get up to.

    Grave of the Fireflies does not glorify war. Thin Red Line is maybe the only movie about soldiers that doesn't make war seem cool.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    I would compare the action scenes in Saving Private Ryan to the "action scenes" of Schindler's List. It tells you how hard all of this is, how everybody's confused, how nobody knows what they're doing, how it's all a hellhole. I would not describe Schindler's List as "glorifying" the plight of the Holocaust victims. It tells you how horrid this all is, not that you should be part of it.

    (FWIW, Saving Private Ryan and Thin Red Line are often put in the same category of "glorifying the people who fought in WWII". But in my opinion, "glorify" here means "elicit sympathy for their effectively-forced situation", and not "glorify", which I would say is something like La Grande Vadrouille (1966).)

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    I agree that Saving Private Ryan action scenes are supposed to show what you're talking about, but that's not what they do. To an American audience (which the film was made for) the chaos and horror is justified and honorable. The audience has been taught that America is always on the right side of history, they have to honor soldiers at every sporting event, they have a general riding a horse into battle in the middle of their town square, they had to pledge allegiance to war every day as a kid, etc etc. The title Saving Private Ryan tells you everything; war is heroic and necessary.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Vinland Saga

    "I have no enemies." It's an anime with two seasons so far. The manga is getting close to complete. Takes place around 1000 ad with the wars between the Vikings and the English. Basically the first season is about revenge while the second pivots hard to redemption. It's ultimately a story about pacifism.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Wow. I dropped it too early then.

    I kinda rolled my eyes and was like "Is EVERY Viking story just an endless circle of killing fathers killing sons killing fathers again?"

    Maybe I should give it another chance...

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Ya the first season reminded me a lot of Berserk. You're following along with a character whose sole purpose is to kill and survive.

    But you see his father in the first few episodes, a man who moved his family far away from the Danes, a man who runs a village and is beloved, a man who despite being a master with a sword is shown trying to lean new skills and grow. He was a man who couldve led the Vikings and lived in luxury but wanted his kids to grow up away from the battlefield. The story is the unfortunate journey of Thorfinn having to realize what his father was trying to teach him but the hard way. Even though the first season is a lot of fighting, there is very little in the second.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Don‘t get me wrong the conclusion is phenomenal but the second season just drags on and on and on. They should‘ve made the second part a much shorter movie. The prologue season on the other hand was absolutely amazing and peak television.

    Goes to show that every war movie (or in this case TV show) is a pro-war message just as much as it is an anti-war message. It all depends on who you ask. No matter how much effort you put into getting your message across.

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    An amazing movie is come and see. One of the best movies I have ever seen (no pun intended).

    Edit: the comments says it all, just the type of thing you asked (or what I understood you asked).

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago

    Anything written by Kurt Vonnegut

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    Was scrolling through to see if this was posted yet. Such a hard game, emotionally and mechanically. I've never managed to get very far through it before everything goes wrong and my characters start dying horribly (Which is entirely the point).

    It's a really good portrayal of the civilian toll of war I think.

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago

    Spec Ops: The Line I heard is a game like that

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago*

    Generation Kill is a very watchable look at a recon unit in the lead up to the 2nd (iirc) iraq war. It's by the guy who did The Wire. Excellent dialogue, plotting and acting.

    It uses a soldier's eye perspective to examine the systemic issues in the military - casual racism, war crimes, adult diapers and the constant incompetence of officers all come up.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago

    The Unknown Soldier is quite well made and high budget war movie by Finnish standards and it does nothing to glorify war.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Civil War definitely wasn't fun at all

    Edit: I mean it was good don't get me wrong, but it absolutely didn't glorify war

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    I still feel really curious about getting around to that one.

    The most unsettling thing is working at my local library, and that movie's been out for a long time now, and I see it circulating CONSTANTLY.

    That speaks volumes about what's on people's minds, I think...

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I think most even slightly accurate war movies don’t really glorify the war bit. Two recommendations.

    There is a film A24 distributed last year called Warfare that follows a very accurate telling of a single operation of a platoon in Ramadi. It is pretty grim, but really gives a sense of just how brutal it can be for a small group. A lot of movies show slaughter at scale, like beaches of Normandy. That is always fascinating and dark too, but it slightly diminishes the struggle of the individuals. This does not.

    Another recommendation is Tora! Tora! Tora!; an absolute classic from 1970. This movie shows you many of the mistakes and oversights, big and small that led to the Pearl Harbor attack being so crippling. Aside from huge ship and air guns there aren’t many guns. I think many people would enjoy it at the moment because it shows the USA on the rout.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    Some episodes of Star Trek do this well. Off the top of my head, "The Drumhead" is a great example of rejecting fearmongering and witch hunting "The Enemy".

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Well, I'll recommend Arcane as a show where nearly everyone wants war and pushes for war, and then regrets it and either changes their mind or dies.

    However, I do think war has its place and is sometimes necessary. If we hadn't gone to war with the Nazis, the world would be a much worse place. I believe we should directly intervene in the Russian invasion of Ukraine and in the Israeli invasion of Palestine, on the side of the defending forces, while limiting our actions to purely military targets. I also think World War 3 has become nearly inevitable, and that it will be triggered by the invasion of Venezuela and Greenland, and that we should be prepared to support the defending forces so as to prevent the rampant spread of fascism.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    I've already watched Arcane, and it indeed is a great show in how it displays each death as an immensely impactful event for each close character, making them feel anger and desperation, ultimately leading to regretful emotional decisions.

    In regards to war being necessary, I partly agree: It only becomes necessary because one side finds it a worthy method to gain what they seek. The Nazi party decided that taking by force is a viable option, and they got support for it. This is what I hope to prevent in the first place. One example is the (initial) support Kremlin had to intervene in Ukraine with a military force. Another example is Trump taking Maduro; also a clear act of war. I'm honestly impressed by the world's reluctance to give military consequences, though I fear it's for the wrong reasons...

    The people of the aggressor's side are the ones that would benefit the most from un-glorifying of conflict, and I will surely recommend people I know some of the great suggestions in this post.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    The villifcation of war will not persuade those who are already out for blood, they're determined to have those wars. However, I fear it may drive our potential allies to passivity in the face of fascist expansion, making the fascists' jobs easier. I very much enjoy media that glorifies war for a just cause, such as Star Wars or Inglourious Basterds.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 9 months ago

    I do think with the right angle, those out for blood can indeed be persuaded. There's no "general cure" to the bloodlust, which makes it difficult, but far from impossible. And vilification is but one angle. Another is a profound sadness, felt in relation to their personal situation.

    It might drive the good people to passivity, true, but I believe that the fear of conflict can become great enough to warrant action, so that fascists/imperialists meet resistance/consequences internally within the nation. Like by the workers who are in the business of weapon logistics, the journalists who write glorifying articles in the news, the people who not only speak up but act against "their own people". I think there are already many like it, based on several videos I've seen from Russia in 2022 for example, although not many enough, evidently.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

    Empire of the Sun is a film about civilians caught in a war zone.

    The Things They Carried, by Tim O'Brien, is a collection of short stories about the Vietnam War. It shows the exhilaration, the terror, the cruelty and hardship of living through a war. It definitely doesn't glorify conflict.

    My War Gone By, I Miss It So, by Anthony Loyd, is a firsthand account of the Bosnian conflict of the 90s. It is ugly and brutal, and the author tries to give an honest presentation of his own state of mind at the time.

    Black Hawk Down (the book, not the movie), by Mark Bowden, is a fairly thorough account of the incident in Mogadishu in 1993. Bowden did a lot of research and describes the political background that led to the UN and US presence in Somalia, and all of the mistakes that led up to the helicopter being shot down and what happened after. He interviewed many of the military personnel who were actually involved and recounts the events from several different perspectives. And as the Wikipedia article says:

    Bowden simultaneously manages to capture the siege mentality felt by both civilians and the US soldiers, as well as the broad sentiment among many residents that the Rangers were to blame for the majority of the battle casualties.

    This is a very realistic presentation of what combat is like, framed inside the perspective of the overall military operation. Bowden doesn't shy away from describing the mistakes in decision-making, but also does a fair job of describing how lack of information or bad information leads to bad decisions in the moment which result in people dying for no good reason. He definitely doesn't glorify the conflict. My overall impression after reading it was "I hope I never have to be involved in anything like that".

    And finally, Alice's Restaurant, by Arlo Guthrie, is a song about the draft.

    if you wanna end war'n'stuff ya gotta sing loud

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    The Things They Carried is so beautifully written. The story On the Rainy River, about a young man struggling with whether to avoid the draft, had this which has stuck with me:

    If the stakes ever became high enough - if the evil were ever evil enough, if the good were good enough - I would simply tap a secret reservoir of courage that had been accumulating inside me over the years. Courage, I seemed to think, comes to us in finite quantities, like an inheritance, and by being frugal and stashing it away and letting it earn interest, we steadily increase our moral capital in preparation for that day when the account must be drawn down. It was a comfortable theory. It dispensed with all those bothersome little acts of daily courage; it offered hope to the repetitive coward; it justified the past while amortizing the future.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Defcon: Everybody Dies

    That game has actually been studied by scientists, because it changes people’s attitudes towards nuclear weapons.

    The game literally is about using nuclear weapons to win.

    How does it look? It isn’t overly grotesque. There are no melting faces, no devastated landscapes. Nothing. It’s just a minimalist map of the world.

    You might hear that and think that it’s a pro-war game. But it actually has the opposite effect on players.

    How can it be? Simple. The game is accurate in how swiftly it all ends if there is a nuclear war. And by playing it, that truth is engraved into players’ intuitions.

    https://www.academia.edu/6697989/Education_from_inside_the_bunker_Examining_the_effect_of_Defcon_a_nuclear_warfare_simulation_game_on_nuclear_attitudes_and_critical_reflection

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 9 months ago

    Interesting suggestion! I've heard about this game, and my initial thoughts were exactly as you described, so maybe I should try it out indeed.

    Also thanks for linking a study!

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    Band of Brothers fits this very well, It is very evenhanded all the way through and particularly at the end where the final Heartfelt speech is made by a German officer to his men, but it applies to all of the American characters that you have been following through this series, the feeling of Brotherhood was the same for all men involved

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Appreciate this post. I'd welcome any suggestion to help deglorify guns to a kid, too

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago*

    It's definitely a tight rope. I was a bit of a "gun nut" as a teen. Mostly by way of fiction and research.

    But the difference, and why I'm probably alive and with all my fingers today, is my dad constantly and heavily emphasized safety alongside exposure in controlled environments. They were something to fear and respect, but not be afraid of.

    I worry about this as a soon to be father myself. We might be in a situation where arms become necessary, God forbid.

    An interest can be healthy, but we definitely need to put the ridiculous carelessness and violence-porn power fantasies into the "outrageous stupid entertainment in moderation" box, rather than glorifying it as a core part of our culture.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    This may not be the approach you have in mind, and it kind of depends on the kid's personality, but one of the ways to de-glorify and de-romanticize something is to de-mistify it, to take it out of fantasy and make it real (to the point of being mundane).

    To that end, consider Forgotten Weapons on YouTube. Ian will discuss a single gun, its design history, manufacturing, intended use, disassembly and cleaning, along with regular reminders about gun safety. Ian will even talk about the political and financing decisions that led to a particular gun being made (accounting is of course the height of glory).

    If the kid finds the history, engineering and basic maintenance discussion to be boring, they might lose interest in the topic altogether. Alternatively, if they find it interesting, you might steer an unhealthy interest in violence toward something productive (history and/or mechanical engineering).

    Keep in mind that forbidding access to something just adds to the mystery and romance around it and can have the effect of increasing the desire for it.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago
    [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    Godzilla Minus One does a great job at showing post WW2 Japan, and the effect the war had on the Japanese people.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago*

    To add some music here,

    Roger Waters: The Wall.

    His version is my personal preference over the original Pink Floyd version; it has some more songs, better audio quality, and IMO hits a little harder. Read the lyrics for full understanding. Watch a recording of the concert to be blown away.

    "Di-di-di-did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?"

    Also seconding someone else's recommendation of Vinland Saga, really goes through the whole spectrum from seeking revenge to being horrified by war.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Saving Private Ryan.

    If the first 15 minutes don't turn you into an antiwar activist, I don't know what will.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    That movie is textbook glorifying war 😭 The first 15 minutes especially!! It's literally called Saving Private Ryan as in here's a movie about heroic saviors in a situation that is only possible because of war. Majority of the audience doesn't leave a film like that thinking "war is so awful" but instead thinking "wow the scene where they stormed normandy was awesome it was filmed in such a cool way omg i wish i was also able to be as brave and heroic as those men."

    I think that movie is great, but it is impossible to make any media about war, that directly shows the war, without coming across as pro-war.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Books: Forever War the homophobia is strange though. I'm not gay so I won't say it isn't offensive, but it is strange.

    The ender's saga. Starts off questioning "what is an enemy", ends questioning "what is life". Author is a cunt though, acquire through other means than purchase (such as borrowing) if you can. Strange someone so bigoted can write a series so... not bigoted.

    Bill the galactic hero. "It's always bowb your buddy week". A bit immature, maybe the jokes are dated now.

    Films: Jarhead

    Platoon

    Full metal jacket

    No write ups, I think the films are well enough known.

    My own thoughts on war are defensive wars are to be supported. Ukraine, Palestine, Venezuela, all to be defended from their aggressors. Rogue states are to be handled in other ways up until war. Which, to criticise my own position, is to say it was fine while Hitler was only killing Germans.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    MAS*H the 1970 Robert Altman film is a dark comedy following battlefield surgeons in the Korean war. Based off a semiautobiographical book with a similar premise.

    Essentially the surgeons try to keep themselves sane in an insane environment by playing practical jokes and generally making light of the darkest situation imaginable.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    “You honestly didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Few people ever cried more than once, if you’d used that up, you laughed.”

    —Michael David Herr, Dispatches (1977) (writing for Esquire during Vietnam War)

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    2000 meters to Andriivka

    It follows the Ukrainian push through a narrow strip of woodland to a town that has been destroyed by the war.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago*

    For some incredibly good sci-fi: Some desperate glory by Emily Tess

    Tap for spoilerAbout a teenager, groomed from birth to be a true-believing elite soldier, who is starting to question and escape a fascist, rapey, ultra-militarized hellhole while looking fo her lost brother. Her mental journey is superbly written. Also includes gay awakenings.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago*

    The Great War channel on YouTube.

    For fiction: Band of Brothers.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Letters from iwo jima. I think of this film time to time

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    This film had just come out when we had family friends come and visit us from the states. There were kind of tragic circumstances because my dad's friend, who he'd met on a student elective in the 70s in New York, had recently killed himself but he'd always loved visiting Scotland. His brother, nephew and uncle were visiting to see what had resonated with him so much about Scotland.

    Anyway this movie came up in conversation around the kitchen table and my dad asked his deceased friend's uncle if he'd seen it. He replied, "No sir, I fought at Iwo Jima so I don't much care for war movies."

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago*

    The War Prayer, a prose poem by Mark Twain.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    You should watch In the Army Now.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago
    [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    I subscribe to the philosophy that there is no such thing as an anti-war film or story. They all romanticize and dramatize war in a way to captivate the audience, and to where the horrors of it are observable, yet not experiencable and therefore not understandable.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago*

    The Boy in The Striped Pajamas and Empire Of The Sun spring to mind.

    Edit: Also, The Deer Hunter.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago*

    There are some... of course, but for some reason these are first I recalled at this moment - some bands a military colleague had been listening back in the days, on fields.

    The band name is Lyube (Любэ). There's a YouTube channel, and some of the titles I still recall he listened to:
    - А зори здесь тихие-тихие - Любэ;
    - Там за туманами - Любэ;
    - Комбат- Любэ;

    Another song another colleague had been listening to was Чей чай горячей by Чайф.

    And though I am not very fluent in Russian (the sense of lyrics in these are quite hard to comprehend, too), rare but tears of these two strong men made me believe these were incredibly significant for them, and represented an unbearable sorrow of any war...

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    The Lord of the Rings is (among many other things) a book about how the common man deals with the trauma of war.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    I haven't watched it, but I've heard Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is a pretty brutal anti-war piece by the end.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    most of them are pretty right wing, so its mostly propaganda anyways, the MSMs are pretty much this.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    1917 the movie feels very anti-war imo

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