Based. Censorship no bueno
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I mention it to my friends and family every chance I get. I try to explain that the digital walls they're building aren't going to keep us safe but I'm always met with tired indifference.
Corps are getting bigger than countries and starting to flex. Scary shit.
Are they becoming less shitty or is this accidentally doing the right thing?
They’re arguing that applying filters would degrade performance for everyone. So.. to me that kinda sounds like accidentally doing the right thing.
Cf has always been taking the "freedom of speech absolutist" approach.
They did as sort of positive thing while praising Elon and Vance, despite both their visions of “free speech” as being “free speech for what I like and not you”
So a hearty fuck Cloudflare, fuck American tech for one again operating in a country and refusing to follow their laws, and fuck the entire billionaire apparatus who are so deep in the circle jerk they don’t know how to come up for air and not act like fascists for 10 seconds.
the Italian law is overly broad here, but that doesn’t excuse this behaviour.
fuck American tech for one again operating in a country and refusing to follow their laws
Fuck government overreach. And fuck anyone defending it.
You fight government overreach by civil disobedience, not by corporatist overreach in the same manner.
If you give a free pass to corporations disobeying laws just because you personally dislike those laws, soon you'll find all regulations are pointless because no corporation follows them...
Also, there's no such thing as "governmental overreach" in a well working system that is FOR the people and BY the people. You elect the representatives, you have a say in what laws get passed. I do agree that we could do with a refresher because the current forms of representative democracy are breaking thanks to (primarily right wing) political false marketing with no repercussions, and nowadays we do have a way to have people give direct input on laws and regulations before they get passed, but that doesn't negate the fact that the government isn't supposed to be some shady ruler class but rather a form of communal governance.
there’s no such thing as “governmental overreach” in a well working system that is FOR the people and BY the people
Nope: two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Coercive power can be turned against the individual democratically. A system that gives government the power necessary to protect individual liberty but also denies it authority to abuse liberties is necessary.
civil disobedience, not by corporatist overreach
"corporatist overreach" can be civil disobedience & legal challenges.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I’m with you on these stupid laws too.
There’s no way this was Cloudflare taking a stand for liberty and free speech. They are simply choosing to obey one less regulation. Less for them to do. Less to be accountable for. Less to special-case for one country.
These corporations hate being regulated - it could be by a direct popular ballot, not politicians, and they would still resist. Let’s not mistake corporate obstructionism for libertarianism.
Government overreach (or corruption and enablement of oligarchs) is the responsibility of the citizens.
I am Italian and I find Piracy Shield an abomination.
That said, the consequence after the government enacts this should be to see at least all the technically informed people protesting vehemently if not violently.
Instead no, sofa is just too comfortable and pay is too high (including the one they get from public contracts), so let's instead applaud the Elon-yapping corpo that decides this is the one rule to challenge, but not the next one that is to their advantage.
the Italian law is overly broad here, but that doesn’t excuse this behaviour.
This behavior = Going to court.
they probably know that if they start censoring then some portion of users will stop using their DNS because it would prevent them from going to the websites they want to visit
Any DNS beginning filtering anything gets removed from my Adguard Home. I will do my filtering myself. Ads and nazi websites like *.il, or whitehouse.gov for example do not load in my network.
Blocking cloudflare is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Unless they start blocking IPs like the great firewall of china blocking any DNS is kinda pointless. Unless maybe if the domain’s primary name servers are cloudflare but I can’t seeing any site doing nefarious things using cloudflare. Run your own DNS resolver on a VPS somewhere besides Italy.
My worry is the internet starts getting terribly segmented and not interconnected. That would be more of an issue.
As a European, I've really come around to a more American view of Free Speech.
Over the last few years, we get more and more laws requiring more and more surveillance and censorship to protect copyright, stop hate speech, enforce GDPR, ... We're building up this infrastructure and the population thinks it's fine. The courts go along and ask for more.
What is going to happen when a European Trump comes to power? You think it's terrible that Big Tech goes along with Trump? That Must bought Twitter? We ain't seen nothing yet.
just to be clear, it seems like you are referring to the claimed american view of free speech, not the reality
Are there examples of censorship or prior restraint you'd like to highlight?
It is real. There is a lot of hypocrisy, particularly among the right. But the difference between Europe and the US is stark.
Compare the criticism of the DMCA or Google's Content ID to this affair. It's on completely different levels.
The US has no limits which is fucking stupid, meanwhile Canada has limits on hate speech while still being far more free than the US speech wise.
limits on hate speech
which is bullshit: not being merely offended is not a fundamental liberty, no imminent risk of damage to an interest a person has a basic right to results from merely expressing an opinion.
such laws are readily abused
- German repression of political expression: live police suppressing pro-Palestinian protests as anti-semitic, raids & arrests over calling a politician pimmel, internet patrols penalizing vitriol, insults, & satirical images of politicians showing fake quotes
- UK repression of political expression: designate Palestine Action as a terrorist organization, arrest pro-Palestinian protesters, arrest someone over a social media post backing Palestine Action
& ineffective at preventing the ideas & ideologies they oppose from taking root & gaining power. the advocates of repressive policies are only mildly inconvenienced or continue undeterred underground. the German AfD isn't struggling. far-right parties like Reform UK keep going. so, they fail to keep anyone in check while also undermining basic freedoms.
ability to justify truth & correctness is far more important than attempting to coerce conformity to correctness through dogma, taboo, & censorship. weak ability to justify makes people incompetent defenders & weak believers of correctness. individuals hone justifications & acquire competence to deliberate effectively through practice of vigorous & open deliberation with adversarial positions. censorship, even of incorrect belief, robs both those whose speech is suppressed and their audience of open deliberation they need to justify their beliefs and actions competently & effectively.
only cowards fear words.
Wait what do you have against GDPR?
Similar to copyright, enforcement requires surveillance and empowers censorship. But worse than copyright, it is directly aimed at information about people. So that is what gets surveilled and censored.
Of course, there are positive uses, such as disappearing revenge porn. But in practice, it will always favor the rich and powerful who have the resources to actively manage their image. I don't believe it is worth the massive surveillance and censorship apparatus, even before one gets to the obvious potential for misuse.
Have you heard of the recent Russmedia case?
Yeah I don’t get that. How did free speech help when the Nazis humiliated jews publicly in the 1930s? How does it help now that the US president says that Somalis are trash people? Nick Fuentes saying the “organized Jewry in America” being a problem?
It seems obvious that I want the state to prevent hate speech, especially against minorities.
How did free speech help when the Nazis humiliated jews publicly in the 1930s?
How did it help taking "jew-baiters" like Julius Streicher to court during the Weimar Republic? Obviously it didn't.
It seems obvious that I want the state to prevent hate speech, especially against minorities.
You want the state to act against hate speech coming from the elected head of state. What about that seems like a good plan?
You can't convince people that Trump is a bad guy, and so you want the state to go after the bad guys. Maybe you can convince people that the state should smash bad guys. It's not hard. But Trump is in charge of the state and not you. He'll decide who's a bad guy.
So then the Italian court orders its local ISPs to blackhole 1.1.1.1 (which would be stupid easy). Which will end up pushing people to VPNs but still satisfy the court order.
Gaslighting article after CEO of Cloudflare started harassing Italian organizations and people https://xcancel.com/eastdakota/status/2009654937303896492 . Probably sponsored. I expect at least 10 more. Looking at brainwashing today is such a joy. I expect people start defending their favorite company and this asshole.
Can you explain more? It sounds like you think it's acceptable for the owners of an Italian sports league to have this power over the Internet?
Explain what ? That I can read and understand ? I am saying that it's not ok for CEO of company to cancel services in whole country after receiving spam email. It's not ok to call politicians to support online aggression actions against foreign country and at the same time wash mouth with freedom. But well I know you who praise him. Good luck and keep destroying internet.
In addition, we are considering the following actions: 1) discontinuing the millions of dollars in pro bono cyber security services we are providing the upcoming Milano-Cortina Olympics; 2) discontinuing Cloudflare’s Free cyber security services for any Italy-based users; 3) removing all servers from Italian cities; and 4) terminating all plans to build an Italian Cloudflare office or make any investments in the country.
It seems like you are misunderstanding the situation. I'm asking you to explain why you support Italian media executives having the power to censor the Internet.
This tweet is fine. Italy is wrong on this matter.
Love to see America taking up this free speech fight again. EU has gotten out of control.
Ah yes, USA - the country with the most strict anti-piracy laws, also responsible for forcing them onto the EU. I'm sure it'll happily defend piracy from supposed attacks on free speech.
You can take your notion of ‘free speech’ and your tech companies and shove’em.
It’s irritating that this is mentioned in the same breath as banning X’s child porn bot.
Piracy isn’t on the same plane.
I am curious what latency a blocklist would incur. Anecdotally, pihole is faster with a block than a lookup even if it’s cached, but how that scales to cloudflare’s scale, I don’t know.
Generally with these things (1.1.1.1), (8.8.8.8),(9.9.9.9) they multicast the IP so it resolves to about the closest one. Each "one" being its own recursive resolver.
In fact: it'd be cool to show instead. If someone from the western hemisphere and eastern both ping 1.1.1.1, they'll get response times that are smaller than the delay from NY to London.
I suspect that @CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de wasn't referring to network latency caused by geographical distance, but instead to response delay caused by increased processing time due to additional complexity.
Italy's Piracy Shield sounds batshit crazy.
There need to be more efficient law enforcement and fighting of serious crime on the Internet. And that's not it. The Privacy Shield looks badly badly designed as the article explain in length, and is not focused on serious crime. It's a nuclear option put in the hands of the media industry for non-violent offenses, and target the whole network infrastructure rather than focusing on perpetrators.
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