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Europe should prepare for Greenland’s annexation and end of NATO: Experts (www.aljazeera.com)
submitted 10 months ago by to c/world@lemmy.world
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US President Donald Trump’s abduction of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on January 3 has emboldened him to proceed with the annexation of Greenland, a Danish-owned, self-governed territory, spelling the effective end of NATO and furthering Russia’s war aims in Ukraine, experts tell Al Jazeera.

“The move on Venezuela illustrates the Trump administration’s determination to dominate the Western Hemisphere – of which Greenland geographically is a part,” said Anna Wieslander, Northern Europe director for the Atlantic Council, a think tank.

“If the United States decides to attack another NATO country, then everything would stop – that includes NATO and therefore post-World War II security,” Frederiksen said.

“The pandering to Trump has been an element of our strategy over the last year, leaving observers hoping, but not entirely trusting, that another element of the strategy is preparing urgently for the final rupture with the United States,” Giles said.

Giles told Al Jazeera that Europe’s best option was to place a military deterrent on Greenland now, believing that putting allied troops in the Baltic States and Poland after 2017 deterred a Russian attack there.

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[–] 83 points 10 months ago (34 children)

What experrs? American experts?

They're kind of forgetting the big elephant in the room that is the fact a lot of US foreign debt is owned by Japan and China, with the majority of the rest of it being held by countries that will be very very pissed off with this move.

If trump is stupid enough to pull the trigger, and those countries decide that a potential physical war is becoming inevitable, they'll for sure dump all of that debt, all at once; killing the US economy and it's ability to make war. War needs fuel. Despite Venzuela, Trump won't have enough of it once his economy tanks.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago

    Yeah I think the ordering on that is China, Japan, UK, Canada in terms of the countries that hold US bonds.

    A diplomatic delegation came to Canada recently and then Mark Carney went to China. Maybe just coincidence, or maybe not.

    Tanking the bonds is essentially the economic equivalent of a nuke. You don't want to use it because there will be fallout which isn't good for anyone. But the US actually using military force on Greenland would be a circumstance where you might push the button on that. China has some business interests in Greenland, and generally the US just invading places based solely on the whims of a deranged old man is worse for everyone than the economic fallout from tanking the bonds.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    If there's a war, and the US is cut off due to international sanctions, they'll have to ship the oil all the way north, by ship, rail, or road, all of which would be VERY susceptible to attacks and sabotage.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    And if by ship, they're likely going to be straining the Navy between ports. Be a shame if something breaks too as we have less dock space available for repair than we did when we laid those keels.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    He's also talking about operations in several other countries, and if he's talking about a few, he's thinking about a bunch more. He doesn't seem to understand that it's not a good idea to spread your forces and resources over multiple battlefronts.

    He seems to think that the military is infinite, that he can just throw money at it and it can do anything. He's talking about a $1.5 TRILLION military budget (who is paying for that?), and he's going to need a LOT more personnel. That means at some point, he is going to demand a draft, especially if unemployment gets too high. It is already at its highest point since 2020.

    America First used to mean we stay out of everywhere else, and concentrate on America, but Trump's version means America gets first dibs on everything, and if you don't want to play that game, we'll just take what we want.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    We have more oil than we need already in the US.

    We don’t have rare earth or battery materials manufacturing/extraction anywhere near the scale needed for a real war though.

    But also Trump and Hegseth are fucking morons who’s wouldn’t smell a strategy if it took a shit on their faces.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    What if I told you that was literally part of the plan? The groundwork for looking the USD was already in project 2025 and the dark enlightenment bullshit the tech feudalists masturbate to requires the balkanization of the US, and pulling a smash and grab on the USD will get us there within ten years. And if Trump makes it to next January they can kill him and we get ten years of "legitimate" Vance and by then it's well and truly over.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (23 children)

    they'll for sure dump all of that debt

    That is a gain for the US, not a loss. No interest payments on the loans they've made, and no need to pay off the principal. Great!

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You are forgetting one thing: no more possibility of selling US debt. And currently the US debt is above 100% GDP.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    The debt doesn't "go away", the countries sell it on the market, causing the price of us bonds to drop. That causes the yield (what it costs the us to service the debt) to go up. Borrowing becomes more expensive. Repaying debt or borrowing more to pay interest becomes even more expensive for the us.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Repaying debt or borrowing more to pay interest becomes even more expensive for the us.

    Yes. This I agree. But the current administration has shown it is willing to ignore future consequences.

    Higher yields are irrelevant if the project 2025 goal is to "Abolish the Federal Reserve" page 768

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (16 children)

    I don't think you understand how inflation works...

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    Debt cancelling is a deflationary action. It reduces the money supply.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    Dumping their bonds into the market isn't cancelling their debt. Its making all that debt available for OTHERS to buy. Supply goes up, value goes down.

    In other words, if all of the US debt was out up for sale at the same time, is value of the US dollar would crater.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Supply is the same unless debt is cancelled. A weaker dollar makes it easier to pay interest.

    "If you owe foreign banks $100, that's your problem. If you owe foreign banks $100 trillion that's the foreign bank's problem.”

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    That's not how markets work.

    But you're clearly a troll just being intentionally obtuse for shits and giggles. It's on me for not having realised it earlier.

    Have a good day.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    If you think correcting someone's macro economic misunderstandings is trolling then you will be meeting many more trolls.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (5 children)

    I'll trust the economists on this one. Honestly should have just done this from the beginning rather than trying to explain things.

    When foreign countries start selling off U.S. debt, the immediate impact is on bond prices. A surge in selling increases the supply of bonds on the market. Just like any other asset, when supply rises dramatically without a corresponding rise in demand, prices fall. And when bond prices fall, yields—another way of saying interest rates—go up.

    source - https://www.investingdaily.com/137830/what-it-means-when-the-world-dumps-u-s-debt/

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    The number of bonds remains fixed (or reduces). Supply only increases if the US issues more bonds.

    The quote is obvious bullshit. You can only have a surge in selling if there is an exactly equal surge in buying. One seller = one buyer.

    Use your brain and don't just quote from random websites.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    Care to provide a contradictory source? Or are you just going to say that anything that doesn't agree with you is "bullshit" without backing it up with actual economic sources?

    Also, just to add another source that MAGA would find "legitimate", this is from Fox Business.

    China holds $761 billion in U.S. debt, making it the second-largest foreign holder after Japan. A mass sell-off could drive down the value of U.S. bonds and cause yields to spike, sharply increasing borrowing costs for the federal government. It could also weaken the U.S. dollar and send shock waves through global financial markets.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/chinas-trade-war-weapons-rare-earth-ban-us-debt-dump-could-cripple-american-economy-defense

    But hey...I'm going to wait for your sources beyond "trust me, bro".

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (2 children)

    How do you think selling works. If you sell something, someone buys it from you.

    A mass selloff also means that there was a mass buying.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Is THAT what you're having a hard-time grasping?!!

    You do know that people put things for sale BEFORE the buying happens, right? It's called THE MARKET.

    If you're selling a house, you put it ON THE MARKET and wait for someone to make you an offer.

    Now let's say you have a house on the market and you want 400,000 for it. But in your city, a lot of people are moving out and there are far more houses on the market than there are buyers. So you have to lower your asking price in order to entice a buyer to take yours instead of someone elses. You DEVALUE your house to make the sale; take less money than you originally wanted. Doing so devalues the other houses for sale since they have to do the same, and the entire market for "Houses in city X" drops.

    If, alternatively, you're the only house that's for sale in your city and there are 10 families looking to buy it, your house's value RISES. Rarity equals Value.

    The same rule applies to stocks and BONDS. The US takes loans from other countries by selling them bonds. Those bond's value is based on a few different criteria (stability of the country's currency, etc...) But the important one here for your understanding is that the value is partially based on it's rarity. If all of the US Treasury bonds get dumped into the market simultaeneously, they're not rare anymore, and thus the value drops. If the value of the US Bond drops, it ripples through the economy.

    It's supply and demand. The more there is of a certain thing ON THE MARKET, the less valuable it becomes. That's the rule for everything, from stocks and bonds and real estate, to beanie babies and pokemon cards.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Not cancelling, selling.

    A dollar bill is debt that the govt owes to you. A bond is similar, just a bit different.

    The US will still owe, just to different entities, but its figurative credit score will plummet at the same time it's in a debt spiral.

    But let's make it simpler. Most of the world's USD is not in the US, but in cash reserves abroad. They hold it like gold.

    What happens if the big players sell? It's already happening a bit, look at EURUSD and gold prices.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Yes. This is Trumps goal. Make foreign goods super expensive for consumers and manufacturers. Exactly what a Tariff does.

    They are isolationists. They don't want debt held overseas.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    This would make all goods more expensive, as it would directly devalue the USD. It wouldn't make people buy local, it would just make them buy less.

    It's not what a tariff does, because that only applies to foreign imports.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Under both, local products become cheaper than foreign.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Not really. If the USD loses value, your neighbour will sell their goods to me for EUR because it will be worth more.

    It will be like everyone in the US got a pay cut. It's a demand side effect, not like a tariff, and it's uniform, not like a tariff.

    It's inflation after all.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Money would be a problem but not the worst problem, all of manufacturing and materials come from China and the remaining single digit percent is in Europe, if the US pisses both they wont be able to manufacture war even if they haf all of the money

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    • [–] 53 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    End of NATO. Putin's wet dream. 

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (11 children)

    ...and an EU-China alliance, Trump's nightmare alliance, with China mediating and resolving disputes in northern Eurasia, including the Russia-Ukraine war, likely with mere words.

    He should know that if he blows up NATO, it's coming.

    US analysts should tell him that this potential alliance would have several times the industrial capacity and scientific potential of the US, and if that doesn't count, it would also have ~ 1000 nuclear warheads.

    (The alliance would be stable since potential allies would be far from each other, safely separated by a large nuclear armed gas station which also claims alliance with China, but China supplies drone parts to both sides.)

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    China is not some all powerful country, nor is it altruistic.

    The end of Russia's war in Ukraine is the end of Putin. Do you think Putin will basically kill himself because of a word from China?

    And you're thinking too small. There is a lot of diplomacy going on between every country in the world. Mark Carney is in China at this very moment. There are other delegations in India. Japan, Korea, and China are working together a little more now, and they hate one another. Everyone is making temporary alliances. It's shaping up to be US and Russia vs. the world.

    Trump is trading NATO, the most powerful alliance in history, for Russia, a collapsing country.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    He's not trading anything. You know that joke:

    • People: We need healthcare!
    • GOP: Fuck off!
    • DNC: Fuck off! #BLM #woke #believewomen #imwithher

    They could've taken over Venezuela and said it's about democracy. The media was poised to make that the story. Europe slid in with "well, he is a dictator...". They even had a Nobel peace prize recipient ready to jump in and take over. Hell, half the people on here were willing to go along with it. But for MAGA, doing evil isn't enough anymore, you have to rub it in, you have to gloat about it, you have to be mean. Giving Israel weapons isn't enough, you have to publicly tell them to kill everyone. It's not enough to twist other nations' arms in trade deals, you have to literally extort them. It's not enough to round up and deport brown people, you need to have camps and cages and then film it and put it on TV, and laugh at them. It's not enough to ignore protesters, or have them suicided, you have to murder them, and do so openly and proudly.

    Dumping NATO, to Stephen Miller, is not a sacrifice but an unshackling. Now they don't even need to pretend anything they do is for some greater good, even if they weren't too crass and stupid to pull it off. They believe they're in the endgame, and they're just taking what they want.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Heard this one?

    People: We need healthcare!
GOP: Fuck off!
Democrats: Don't vote GOP, you'll be paying more for healthcare, they'll take away people's rights, and we may even lose our democracy
Leftists: Both sides! #uncommitted

    After the election:

    People: We're now paying double for healthcare and there are masked men in the streets disappearing people
GOP: Fuck off! We're invading countries now!
Leftist: Both sides! WHY ISN'T CHUCK SCHUMER PREVENTING THIS!!!!
Democrats: FFS we don't have any power because you didn't vote for us

    You've already killed the the Democratic party, now you're just beating on dead corpse becuase you'll do anything other than oppose the people actually doing the bad things.

    Tell your bullshit about how accelerationism is working to the families of the ~100 people Trump's special military operation killed in Venezuela. That's modern leftism for you... killing people in the developing world is somehow good because it helps leftism somehow and it hurts the Democrats (the real enemy!). How are you any different from MAGA at this point?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I'm sorry, you seem to have confused a joke meant to illustrate a point for an invitation to have imaginary conversations with the gaggle of strawmen you have living in your head.

    I'll leave you to it.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah MAGAs also do the "I was just joking!" thing when I explain how stupid the things they post are.

    You have more in common with MAGAs than you think.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    ...Man, those literacy stats about the US weren't wrong...

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    I'm not American, but I'm guessing you are. You're the one that posted the image and did the MAGA "I was only joking bro" bullshit.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Not American, haven't posted an image in quite a while, and wasn't joking. Three strikes - you're out!

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Oops wrong shitposter. Y'all say the same kinds of things. Which one were you again? Are you a leftist/MAGA that doesn't know anything about politics/economics?

    Whatever... y'all carry water for Trump and attack those that oppose him. Does it really really matter your rationalizations are at this point?

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    China doesn't want world domination. It just want to look out for China. However, what it considers China and what everyone else does are very different.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    China is no different from the US.

    Trump is in power because Americans have been made to think they need a strongman to make the economy work and protect them from the evil foreigners that are trying to screw them over.

    Xi is in power because Chinese have been made to think they need a strongman to make the economy work and protect them from the evil foreigners that are trying to screw them over.

    They are the same.

    I'm in Canada and I see Taiwan as being in a similar situation to us. Trump wants Canada to be part of the US. Xi wants Taiwan to be part of China. The Taiwanese are facing the same struggle as us, and because of that, they are our brothers and sisters.

    Fuck Xi and fuck Trump. They're no different. We have to make deals with China but we know they're the same as the US. They're further away so not an immediate threat to us while the US is. That's the only difference between them.

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    • [–] 37 points 10 months ago

    Let's hope the same thing will happen if/when the US tries to take Greenland; but honestly, I'm not optimistic. At least here in Germany, politicians and businesses are so used to licking the US' boot that I have a hard time imagining a seismic shift. Not to mention that thanks to our dependence on US software, we're incredibly vulnerable.

    Still. One can hope.

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    [–] 31 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    I just want to say it won't end Nato. Nato countries will stick together, but the USA will be out, alone, isolated, another rouge state just like Russia. That is until Americans grow a spine and either throw Trump out by election, by force, or by crashing the economy.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    Considering this year started 10 days ago, I don't think we have enough time til the election in 3 years.

    And then they may elect Mr Beast or some other rich dude.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    And then they may elect Mr Beast

    I can't wait for welfare to be replaced by "Survive 30 days in Guantanamo, win $500,000", and "100 people in Alligator Alcatraz. Last one standing wins $1,000,000".

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I’m sure the free world will stick together till the bitter end

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    The population of the US is about 342 million. Russia has a population of about 146 million. China has a population of about 1.4 billion. The European Union has a population of about 448 million people. The population of the world is about 8 billion. The orange mobster THINKS it will rule the world?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    The thing is that population numbers isn't everything, it's also about what that population is doing. A tree has a thousand times the mass of a patch of grass but produces the same photosynthesis or sth.

    That's because the tree is massive due to its trunk, which is dead weight and doesn't do much.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You can't even make a purchase on a credit card unless the US okays it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'm sure we can figure something out if that comes to be. If the people on Brasil made theur own credit cards I'm sure we can make an open source EU alternative

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    • [+] 29 points 10 months ago (5 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Challenging, but not impossible. I think the military budget of all other NATO members combined would just be about the same as the US. However, it's not like every country has its own independent "mix of everything"; they are supposed to work supplemental. What makes things worse is proprietary hardware and software in modern equipment such as planes. I'm not sure to which degree it would even be technically possible to use it to defend against the USA.

    Then there is the nuclear weapon problem. France and UK would have to really stand their ground and follow through with nuclear retaliation. That means that even when the USA or Russia just use a small tactical nuke in Poland, Greenland or wherever, they'd have to use one of their few strategic nukes to destroy something big, possibly dooming Paris. The downside of the idea of mutually assured destruction always was that it only works with somewhat reasonable people who REALLY are not willing to take their entire civilisation with them. But since Stalin, there have never been nutjobs like Trump or Putin in charge, neither in the USSR, nor US, nor Russia.

    A victorious Ukraine would certainly be an incredible asset to have in NATO, with all those battle-hardened, highly educated people.

    But all things considered, might as well give it a try.

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Because nobody in Europe wants to fight

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    You are deluding yourself.

    The US is doing this with the aim of surviving and thriving. They are chasing treasure, land and the dream of a better life after. Those are not goals that motivate people to fight.

    For Europe, as for Canada, this fight is existential. There is nothing people are not willing to do in an existential fight.

    You're out of your mind if you think the US has the upper hand here.

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    • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Germany needs to boot the US out of all the military installations there.

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    • [–] 22 points 10 months ago

    Gonna keep spamming this cuz I made it a year ago and it sat in a random folder on my PC for the perfect time lol

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    [–] 18 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The US has dominated the Western hemisphere for 70 years. Moving to snatch-and-grab military adventurism suggests that is no longer the case.

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    • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I don't think NATO is going to end, I think what's going to happen is NATO is going to turn on America if Greenland gets annexed. That is how I think World War III is going to start.

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    • [–] 15 points 10 months ago

    The pandering to Trump has been an element of our strategy over the last year

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    [–] 30 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    NATO won't end, only the US being part of NATO will end.

    In fact if NATO didn't already exist, something just like it would be formed if the US starts invading countries just because a crazy old man thinks the world map is a colouring book.

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  • [+] 10 points 10 months ago (8 children)
    [removed by mod]
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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (7 children)

    Please stop vilifying the entirety of America. There are millions of us that are doing everything we can to organize against this while also feeding our families.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (6 children)

    Yeah well y'all need to understand there are people in Venezuela and Greenland that are just trying to feed their families.

    If Trump attacks my country I'll need to be capable of going to war against your country. And that demands considering you to be nothing more than collateral damage if you happen to be in the wrong place at that wrong time. Just like those 100 people he killed in Venezuela.

    If Trump carries out some of the threats he's making right now, you'll need to get used to being vilified. The rest of the world may need to burn your country to the ground, and we can't let feelings get in the way of what must be done to prevent him from destroying our countries.

    You shouldn't be surprised when people have the same consideration for your life as Americans generally have for the lives in countries you go to war with.

    Don't spend any more time telling people to not "vilify" Americans, spend more time trying to make it so America is not the villain. We aren't making you the villains, the actions of your President is making you the villains of the world.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (5 children)

    Wow alright, fuck you too then I guess?

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, an innocent American "just tying to feed his family" LOL.

    No one needs to "vilify" you. You're always ready to be villains with very little prompting.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (3 children)

    All I'm seeing is another "fuck you, my needs are the only thing that matter" MAGA-type in your responses. Way to be part of the problem. You're no different than Trump's supporters. You just have the benefit of not being born here.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You're country is falling apart and instead of doing something about it, you're looking for someone else to blame.

    It isn't people from other countries that fucked up your country. You're fucked because Americans were willing to vote in a fascist because you believe the "I'm just trying to feed my family" line of bullshit justifies your raw greed.

    You're the wealthiest country in the world, and you voted for Trump (or didn't vote at all) because you believed it would make you rich. And you sure as hell didn't want to vote for the black lady. But sure blame the black lady, blame everyone in the world, do everything you have to do to avoid responsibility. American culture is rotten to the core, and you're incapable of understanding that.

    You got a pass on a lot of your bullshit when you were an ally to other countries. That's over now.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Wow you're making a lot of blanket statements about millions of people. Also, if you'll go back and look I specifically said we're actively doing what we can. Just because you're too stupid to understand me walking down the gun store, kissing my kids goodbye and going on a good ol Trump hunt isn't going to do anything other than leave my young children without a father, doesn't mean myself or millions of other people are inactive.

    Get fucked you entitled little shit. You're the reason that we have a hard time convincing our own dipshits not to shoot you!

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    Your country is going off the rails and you're sitting around doing nothing other than shit posting about it on the internet because you expect other people to solve your problems for you.

    Who's really the entitled one here?

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    [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    I hope the US loses all international rights if this happens. It has too many.

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    [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    Some countries in Europe are starting to, and given what Europe is, that's probably the best they can start doing.

    At least because they made sure to show us their hand at their latest sonic weapons and information warfare used to shut down weapons that was used in the Venezuela attack. They would probably go the same route with Europe, trying to behead whatever strategic target is going to get them what they want, because they can't go for a prolonged conflict either.

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    [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    I'm one of those experts but I've been saying Europe should prepare for end of NATO ever since Trump won for the first time.

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    [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If it really happens, shut down all the US military installations in Europe and European territories. The Red Coats should tell the US to leave Diego Garcia too.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago

    They can't even shut down the base in Greenland. There's a reason DeGaulle kicked the US out in 1966. And why Okinawa residents have been lobbying to shut down the local base for decades.

    Europeans have been under military occupation since the end of WW2, telling themselves the gun pointed at the back of their heads was aimed at the USSR, even after it dissolved.

    Now they're going to have to deal with a foreign hostile occupation whose roots have grown deep

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    • [+] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)
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    • [–] 30 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Maybe America has to be understood as the logical conclusion of Western European geopolitical and moral ideology, and maybe it has to hurt Europeans (I'm French living in the UK, DW, it'll hurt me too but such is life) for us to finally consider some sort of ideological revolution that produces something that's diametrically opposed to what's currently embraced. I mean, it's not like we wouldn't be doing whatever America has been doing for at least 70 years if we had their power level, lol, history shows that clearly, so for this all to end because it must ("THIS SICILIAN THING THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR 2000 YEARS!") our minds have to undergo a drastic collective change.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    TBH the change can be pretty small, albeit revolutionary.

    Actually embrace the humanitarian values of enlightenment. Gain some class consciousness. Remove the dictatorship of the capital by seizing the means of production. Consider other peoples of the world as equals and allies rather than dumb weaklings to be taught a lesson and/or exploited.

    It all fits in a very long and established european tradition. Remember that Marx, Engels, Liebknecht, Luxemburg, Kropotkin, and Lenin were all europeans.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    The humanitarian ideals of the enlightenment were used to justify colonialism, they simply said "look, those people don't have our humanitarian ideals, we need to take control of their society/resources."

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