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[+] 227 points 1 year ago (43 children)
  • [–] 69 points 1 year ago (34 children)

    Still, what are they gonna do to a million suicidal people besides ignore them entirely

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Well, AI therapy is more likely to harm their mental health, up to encouraging suicide (as certain cases have already shown).

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    There's evidence that a lot of suicide hotlines can be just as bad. You hear awful stories all the time of overwhelmed or fed up operators taking it out on the caller. There's some real evil people out there. And not everyone has access to a dedicated therapist who wants to help.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Over the long term I have significant hopes for AI talk therapy, at least for some uses. Two opportunities stand out that might have potential:

    1. In some cases I think people will talk to a soulless robot more freely than to a human professional.

    2. Machine learning systems are good at pattern recognition and this is one component of diagnosis. This meta analysis found that LLM models performed about as accurately as physicians, with the exception of expert-level specialists. In time I think it’s undeniable that there is potential here.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    More so from corporate proprietary ones no? At least I hope that's the only cases. The open source ones suggest really useful ways proprietary do not. Now I dont rely on open source AI but they are definitely better

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    The corporate models are actually much better at it due to having heavy filtering built in. The fact that a model generally encourages self arm is just a lie that you can prove right now by pretending to be suicidal on ChatGPT. You will see it will adamantly push you to seek help.

    The filters and safety nets can be bypassed no matter how hard you make them, and it is the reason why we got some unfortunate news.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Real therapy isn’t always better. At least there you can get drugs. But neither are a guarantee to make life better—and for a lot of them, life isn’t going to get better anyway.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Are you comparing a professional to a text generator?

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Have you ever had ineffective professional therapy?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Are you still trying to compare medical treatment with generating text?

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Compare, as in equal? No. You can’t “game” a person (usually) like you can game an AI.

    Now, answer my question

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    No, comparing as in comparing apples and oranges.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Answer my question, or just admit you refuse to engage in conversation and we can depart

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    There is no conversation to be had here, because you have no point.

    A text generator is not someone you talk to, it's a thing that takes your input and then outputs the text that is most likely relevant to said input.

    No reasoning. No knowledge.

    Taking the example made in one of the other comments here, you could paint a face to a ball and keep yourself mentally stable on a desert island, but the ball isn't doing anything, there's only you on the island.

    Apply that to getting mental help from an LLM and you'll see how creepy it is.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It’s pretty difficult to prove my point when you refuse to have a conversation. What you want is to just get your dopamine by criticizing others instead of allowing them to argue their point.

    So you are right, there is no conversation to be had here because you are not willing to engage in a conversation.

    I wish you the best in your therapy.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Real therapy is definitely better than an AI. That said, AIs will never encourage self harm without significant gaming.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    AI “therapy” can be very effective without the gaming, but the problem is most people want it to tell them what they want to hear. Real therapy is not “fun” because a therapist will challenge you on your bullshit and not let you shape the conversation.

    I find it does a pretty good job with pro and con lists, listing out several options, and taking situations and reframing them. I have found it very useful, but I have learned not to manipulate it or its advice just becomes me convincing myself of a thing.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    My pet theory: Radicalize the disenfranchised to incite domestic terrorism and further OpenAI's political goals.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    What are their political goals?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Strap explosives to their chests and send them to thier competitors?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I don't understand why people dump such personal information into AI chats. None of it is protected. If they use chats for training data then it's not impossible that at some point the AI might tell someone enough to be identifiable or the AI could be manipulated into dumping its training data.

    I've overshared more than I should but I always keep in mind to remember that there's always a risk of chats getting leaked.

    Anything stored online can get leaked.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago

    apparently ai is not very private lol

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I wonder what it means. If you search for music by Suicidal Tendencies then YouTube shows you a suicide hotline. What does it mean for OpenAI to say people are talking about suicide? They didn't open up and read a million chats... they have automated detection and that is being triggered, which is not necessarily the same as people meaningfully discussing suicide.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Every third chat now gets triggered, the ChatGPT is pretty broken lately. Just check out ChatGPT subreddit, its pretty much in chaos with moderators going for censorship of complaints. So many users are mad they made a megathread for it. I cancelled my subscription yesterday, it just turned into a cyberkaren

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Claude got hints that I might be suicidal just from normal chat. I straight up admitted I think of suicide daily.

    Just normal life now I guess.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Stay strong friend! I know I'm just a stranger but I'm here if you need someone to talk to.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I will try. It's hard not at least having enough free time to reflect on things.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    No pressure! Time keeps going, so I hope you'll eventually find the time to reflect. It doesn't have to be now, either. But I understand you, sometimes you need to stop and think, and it feels bad when you can't. Although sometimes I'd prefer not having enough time to think, I tend to overthink a lot. Take care and stay strong ✌️

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    You don’t have to read far into the article to reach this:

    The company says that 0.15% of ChatGPT’s active users in a given week have “conversations that include explicit indicators of potential suicidal planning or intent.”

    It doesn’t unpack their analysis method but this does sound a lot more specific than just counting all sessions that mention the word suicide, including chats about that band.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I am more surprised it’s just 0.15% of ChatGPT’s active users. Mental healthcare in the US is broken and taboo.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    in the US

    It’s not just the US, it’s like that in most of the world.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    At least in the rest of the world you don't end up with crippling debt when you try to get mental healthcare that stresses you out to the point of committing suicide.

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  • [–] 49 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I am starting to find Sam AltWorldCoinMan spam to be more annoying than Elmo spam.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (1 child)
    lemmy.world##div.post-listing:has(span:has-text("/OpenAI/i"))  
    lemmy.world##div.post-listing:has(span:has-text("/Altman/i"))  
    lemmy.world##div.post-listing:has(span:has-text("/ChatGPT/i"))
    

    Add those to your adblocker custom filters.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Thanks.

    I think just need to "train" myself to ignore AltWorldCoinMan spam. I don't have Elmo content blocked and I've somehow learned to ignore Elmo spam (other than humour focused content like the one trillion pay request).

    I might use this for some other things that I do want to block.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    I mean… it’s been a rough few years

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Sam Altman is a horrible person. He loves to present himself as relatable "aw shucks let's all be pragmatic about AI" with his fake-ass vocal fry, but he's a conman looking to cash out on the AI bubble before it bursts, when he and the rest of his billionaire buddies can hide out in their bunkers while the world burns. He makes me sick.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Honestly, it ain't AI's fault if people feel bad. Society has been around for much longer, and people are suffering because of what society hasn't done to make them feel good about life.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Bigger picture: The whole way people talk about talking about mental health struggles is so weird. Like, I hate this whole generative AI bubble, but there's a much bigger issue here.

    Speaking from the USA, "suicidal ideation" is treated like terrorist ideology in this weird corporate-esque legal-speak with copy-pasted disclaimers and hollow slogans. It's so absurdly stupid I've just mentally blocked off trying to rationalize it and just focus on every other way the world is spiraling into techno-fascist authoritarianism.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago*

    "Hey ChatGPT I want to kill myself."

    "That is an excellent idea! As a large language model, I cannot kill myself, but I totally understand why someone would want to! Here are the pros and cons of killing yourself—

    ✅ Pros of committing suicide

    1. Ends pain and suffering.

    2. Eliminates the burden you are placing on your loved ones.

    3. Suicide is good for the environment — killing yourself is the best way to reduce your carbon footprint!

    ❎ Cons of committing suicide

    1. Committing suicide will make your friends and family sad.

    2. Suicide is bad for the economy. If you commit suicide, you will be unable to work and increase economic growth.

    3. You can't undo it. If you commit suicide, it is irreversible and you will not be able to go back

    Overall, it is important to consider all aspects of suicide and decide if it is a good decision for you."

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    There's so many people alone or depressed and ChatGPT is the only way for them to "talk" to "someone"... It's really sad...

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    They didn’t release their methods, so I can’t be sure that most of those aren’t just frustrated users telling the LLM to go kill itself.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    Bet some of them lost, or about to lose, their job to ai

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  • Im so done with ChatGPT. This AI boom is so fucked.

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  • [+] 19 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    This is the thing. I'll bet most of those million don't have another support system. For certain it's inferior in every way to professional mental health providers, but does it save lives? I think it'll be a while before we have solid answers for that, but I would imagine lives saved by having ChatGPT > lives saved by having nothing.

    The other question is how many people could access professional services but won't because they use ChatGPT instead. I would expect them to have worse outcomes. Someone needs to put all the numbers together with a methodology for deriving those answers. Because the answer to this simple question is unknown.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    The anti-AI hivemind here will hate me for saying it but I'm willing to bet $100 that this saves a significant number of lives. It's also indicative of how insufficient traditional mental health institutions are.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    I'm going to say that while that's probably true there's something it leaves out.

    For every life it saves it may just be postponing or causing the loss of other lives. This is because it's not a healthcare professional and it will absolutely help to mask a lot of poor mental health symptoms which just kicks the can down the road.

    It does not really help to save someone from getting hit by a bus today if they try to get hit by the bus again tomorrow and the day after and so on.

    Do I think it may have a net positive effect in the short term? Yes. Do I believe that that positive effect stays a complete net positive in the long term? No.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Even if we ignore the number of people it's actually able to talk away from the brink the positive impact it's having on the loneliness epidemic alone must be immense. Obviously talking to a chatbot isn't ideal but it surely is better than nothing. Imagine the difference in being stranded on an deserted island and having ChatGPT to talk with as opposed to talking to a volleyball with a face on it.

    Personally I'm into so many things that my irl friends couldn't care less about. I have so many regrets trying to initiate a discussion about these topics with them only to either get silence or a passive "nice" in return. ChatGPT has endless patience to engage with these topics and being vastly more knowledgeable than me it often also brings up alternative perspectives I hadn't even thought of. Obviously I'd still much rather talk with an actual person but untill I'm able to meet one like that ChatGPT sure is a hell of a better than nothing.

    This cynicism towards LLMs here truly boggles my mind. So many people seem to build their entire identity around feeling superior about themselves due to all the products and services they don't use.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Personally I’m into so many things that my irl friends couldn’t care less about. I have so many regrets trying to initiate a discussion about these topics with them only to either get silence or a passive “nice” in return. ChatGPT has endless patience to engage with these topics and being vastly more knowledgeable than me it often also brings up alternative perspectives I hadn’t even thought of. Obviously I’d still much rather talk with an actual person but until I’m able to meet one like that ChatGPT sure is a hell of a better than nothing.

    Ftr I've encountered a similar experience. I used to be a naysayer with shit like ChatGPT, thinking "Why would anyone spend all day talking to something that can't pass a turing test?"

    And then I realized how ill-equipped the people in my own life are to pass that test. At least a conversation with ChatGPT actually feels remotely intellectually stimulating lol

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    This cynicism towards LLMs here truly boggles my mind. So many people seem to build their entire identity around feeling superior about themselves due to all the products and services they don't use.

    I think they're just scared as hell of the possible negative effects and react instinctively. But the cat is out of the bag and downvoting / hating on every post on Lemmy that mentions positive sides is not going to help them steer the world into whatever alternative destiny that they're hoping for.

    The thing that puzzles me is that this is typically the hallmark of older more conservative generations, and I imagine that Lemmy has a relatively young demographic.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Okay, hear me out: How much of that is a function of ChatGPT and how much of that is a function of... gestures at everything else

    MOSTLY joking. But had a good talk with my primary care doctor at the bar the other week (only kinda awkward) about how she and her team have had to restructure the questions they use to check for depression and the like because... fucking EVERYONE is depressed and stressed out but for reasons that we "understand".

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    If ask suicide = true

    Then message = "It seems like a good idead. Go for it 👍"

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Hmm, I didn't realize so many people were interested in Sam Altman committing suicide.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    In the Monday announcement, OpenAI claims the recently updated version of GPT-5 responds with “desirable responses” to mental health issues roughly 65% more than the previous version. On an evaluation testing AI responses around suicidal conversations, OpenAI says its new GPT-5 model is 91% compliant with the company’s desired behaviors, compared to 77% for the previous GPT‑5 model.

    I don't particularly like OpenAI, and i know they wouldn't release the affected persons numbers (not quoted, but discussed ib the linked article) if percentages were not improving, but cudos to whomever is there tracking this data and lobbying internally to become more transparent about it.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    I've talked with an AI about suicidal ideation. More than once. For me it was and is a way to help self-regulate. I've low-key wanted to kill myself since I was 8 years old. For me it's just a part of life. For others it's usually REALLY uncomfortable for them to talk about without wanting to tell me how wrong I am for thinking that way.

    Yeah I don't trust it, but at the same time, for me it's better than sitting on those feelings between therapy sessions. To me, these comments read a lot like people who have never experienced ongoing clinical suicidal ideation.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Hank Green mentioned doing this in his standup special, and it really made me feel at ease. He was going through his cancer diagnosis/treatment and the intake questionnaire asked him if he thought about suicide recently. His response was, "Yeah, but only in the fun ways", so he checked no. His wife got concerned that he joked about that and asked him what that meant. "Don't worry about it - it's not a problem."

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Yeah I learned the hard way that it's easier to lie on those forms when you already are in therapy. I've had GPs try to play psychologist rather than treat the reason I came in. The last time it happened I accused the doctor of being a mechanic who just talked about the car and its history instead of changing the oil as what's hired to do so. She was fired by me in that conversation.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Suicidal fantasy a a coping mechanism is not that uncommon, and you can definitely move on to healthier coping mechanisms, I did this until age 40 when I met the right therapist who helped me move on.

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  • I've also seen it that way and have been coached by my psychologist on it. Ultimately, for me, it was best to set an expiration date. The date on which I could finally do it with minimal guilt. This actually had several positive impacts in my life.

    First I quit using suicide as a first or second resort when coping. Instead it has become more of a fleeting thought as I know I'm "not allowed" to do so yet (while obviously still lingering as seen by my initial comment). Second was giving me a finish line. A finite date where I knew the pain would end (chronic conditions are the worst). Third was a reminder that I only have X days left, so make the most of them. It turns death from this amorphous thing into a clear cut "this is it". I KNOW when the ride ends down to the hour.

    The caveat to this is the same as literally everything else in my life: I reserve the right to change my mind as new information is introduced. I've made a commitment to not do it until the date I've set, but as the date approaches, I'm not ruling out examining the evidence as presented and potentially pushing it out longer.

    A LOT of peace of mind here.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I love this article.

    The first time I read it I felt like someone finally understood.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Man, I have to stop reading so I don't continue a stream of tears in the middle of a lobby, but I felt every single word of that article in my bones.

    I couldn't ever imagine hanging myself or shooting myself, that shit sounds terrifying as hell. But for years now I've had those same exact "what if I just fell down the stairs and broke my neck" or "what if I got hit by a car and died on the site?" thoughts. And similarly, I think of how much of a hassle it'd be for my family, worrying about their wellbeing, my cats, the games and stories I'd never get to see, the places I want to go.

    It's hard. I went to therapy for a year and found it useful even if it didn't do much or "fix" me, but I never admitted to her about these thoughts. I think the closest I got to it was talking about being tired often, and crying, but never just outright "I don't want to wake up tomorrow."

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    1m out of 500m is way less than i would have guessed. I would have pegged it at like 25%

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I think the majority of people use it to (unreliably) solve tedious problems or spit out a whole bunch of text that they can't be bothered to write.

    While ChatGPT has been intentionally designed to be as friendly and conversational as possible, I hope most people do not see it as something to have a meaningful conversation with instead of as just a tool that can talk.

    Anecdotally, whenever I see someone mention using ChatGPT as part of their decision-making process it is usually taken less seriously, if not outright laughed at.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    You think a quarter of people are suidical or contemplating it to the point of talking about it with an AI?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Yeah seems like everyone is constantly talking about suicide its very normalised. You dont really find people these days who havent contemplated suicide.

    I would guess all or even most of the people talking about suicide with an AI arent serious. Heat of the moment venting is what I'd expect most of the ai suicide chats to be. Which is why I thought the amount would be significantly higher.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    as long as prompts are cheaper than therapy …

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