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[–] 107 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

I don't know if Tolkien's notes support this, but I always assumed that Treebeard's Entish name was something completely unpronounceable for anyone who isn't an ent, and "Treebeard" was a nickname that he picked for himself. Maybe because he finds it funny that other species think he looks like a tree. (I'm sure that ents look clearly different from trees to other ents.)

Edit: he says so himself.

Hrum, now, well, I am an Ent, or that's what they call me. Yes, Ent is the word. The Ent, I am, you might say, in your manner of speaking. Fangorn is my name according to some, Treebeard others make it. Treebeard will do.

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  • [–] 64 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    So many get this backwards.

    The languages (there are multiple, including historical languages that explain the transition into the modern languages) came first - by about 40 years.

    He did not invent languages for his world. He invented a world to explain how his languages would come to exist.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    "Treebeard some call me" - it's a nickname

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  • [–] 66 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Makes sense. The biggest strength of robust worldbuilding isn't showing it all to your audience, it's hinting at small pieces of it that shows a connection between them and hints at something deeper. Having what feels like a detailed history makes the world feel real, because you can see shadows of it in the foreground. If you actually dig into all of it explicitly in your story that just makes it feel shallow, because you're showing the whole iceberg.

    It's why the mystery of the clone wars and Anakin's apprenticeship and betrayal of Obi-wan were intriguing in the original Star Wars trilogy, but end up just being some action movies once it's all fleshed out on screen. Depth stops being depth if you bring it all up to the surface.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    I wish more writers would understand what you're pointing out here, I've actually stopped reading quite a few books over the years because the actual story takes a back seat to the world building.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago*

    …in service of his fantasy epic.

    This is wrong. The the histories, cultures, etc. were in service of the conlangs. Sure, he eventually wrote some stories set in that world, but that wasn't the reason he created it.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    It keeps blowing my mind when I learn that other languages haven't obfuscated the meanings of names behind two thousand years of linguistic divergence.

    Your name almost certainly means something basic too, you just don't remember what it is.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Yep. Some common names:

    Steve ← Steven ← Stephanus ← στέφανος = crown (or wealth)

    Linda ← -linde = tender, soft

    James ← Iacomus ← Iacobus ← Ἰάκωβος ← Ἰακώβ ← יַעֲקֹב = heel, footprint / follow, watch, observe

    Karen ← Catherine ← Αἰκατερίνη ← Ἑκάτη = one who works from far away (referring to a goddess)

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And "Tiffany" may sound like a very 20th-century American name, but it actually dates back to the early 13th century and is based on a Greek word that's even older. The "Tiffany Problem" is a really interesting phenomenon in the anthropological/perceptual space based on that.

    Tiffany ← Tifinie ← Θεοφάνεια = "God's arrival/appearance"

    It's also more closely related to the name "Natalie" than you might think, at least etymologically.

    Natalie ←Natalia ←natale domini = "birth of the Lord" (Latin)

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mean, there's people called Hunter...

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    There are a bunch of obvious ones for last names. Smith, Tailor, Carpenter, Fletcher, etc from when urban families tended to keep the same profession.

    Also, last names that end in "son" like Johnson, Thompson, Ragnarson. It's just shorthand for "son of John". Not sure if Ragnarson is a name that has survived to today, but it was the name that made me realize that connection when reading a fiction based on the execution of Ragnar and the subsequent Viking invasion of England by his sons. They were Ragnarsons but he was Ragnar Lodbrok (which just means he was hairy, if he even was a single person and not an amalgramation of a bunch of big Viking names).

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Seriously, like Gandalf just means magic elf. So he's just the magic elf that wears grey. Then he's the magic elf that wears white.

    Names are just that, things we observe, want or expect.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Hello, my name is Personface

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Sure... but Tolkien could tell you Treebeard's name in hall a dozen languages he'd made up for his setting (or for fun, before the setting was a thing), including full etymologies.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Overt bad guy: Sauron

    Secret bad guy: Saurumon

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    He also nearly named Celeborn Teleporno, which would have been awful amazing.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Not "nearly" and not "Celeborn Teleporno".

    Celeborn is his name in the language Sindarin.

    Teleporno is his name in the language Quenya.

    I think you can see the similarities between "Cele/Tele" and "born/porn(o)", right?

    Similarly Galadriel (Sinadrin) has a Quenya name - Altáriel.

    We have very similar situations here on Earth with differences in spelling/pronunciation between languages (and ages): James vs Iacobus or Catherine vs Aikaterínē.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    It's kinda funny with anime and manga. They use Japanese names for a bunch of stuff like special martial arts techniques or special moves. Not knowing Japanese, the names sound cool and mysterious.

    Learning the actual translations, Treebeard is pretty par for the course.

    Like from Naruto, Sasuke uses the Copy Wheel Eye (sharingan), Hinyata uses the White Eye (byakugon), and Naruto's big move is Spiral Sphere (rasengan). Copy Wheel Eye's upgraded version is called Kalidoscope Copy Wheel Eye.

    They aren't horrible names, but they feel less cool.

    Though it would be funny if Saitama has special moves that are just other languages saying "normal punch" or "serious punch". "Hip bump with moderate vigor" or something.

    Edit: fixed spelling of byakugon

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Guy who walks around the forest: Strider.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Guy who betrays everyone to side with Sauron: Sauron-man.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    In my headcanon, that's not his real name. The books were written after the facts, so I imagine the writers wanted him to be remembered only as a Sauron henchman, erasing him from history.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Really, your headcanon has some precedent in the books. If Wormtongue had written the history, he literally would've called Gandalf "bad news." And in fact, Saruman's actual name was Curumo. ...uh, or Curunir. Or Sharkey, or Tarindor, or...

    I mean, part of the problem is that every person (and place, and country, and river...) has like a half dozen names depending on who's talking and what time or place they're in. Gandalf himself is Greyhame, Gandalf, Stormcrow, and Lathspell in Rohan alone; and Mithrandir, Olorin, Incanus, and Tharkun to other people in Middle Earth.

    Aragorn and Strider and Elessar and Estel and Wingfoot and Longshanks are the same person in different contexts. Galadriel is also Alatariel and Artanis and Nerwen. Legolas is Laicolasse and Greenleaf (all three of which, in fairness, mean the same thing in different languages).

    And that's before we even talk about what their names "really" were in the "original" Red Book of Westmarch, before Tolkien "translated" them to English. The "actual" sound that came out of Bilbo's mouth when he introduced himself was Bilba Labingi, but Tolkien decided that the name Labingi "actually" would've sounded like the word for bag or sack to the "original hearers." Likewise Frodo's name is "translated" from Maura Labingi and Sam "actually" introduced himself as Banazir Galpsi.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    No. he just translated it into treebeard for localization for English speakers. educate yourself.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Also, Shire just means Farm.

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  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    And all of the evil characters/places have Arabic or Germanic sounding names.

    I love his work, but he was racist. Same thing with Lovecraft, though Lovecraft was more xenophobic because he rarely left the house, and foreigners were scary.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Which evil characters? Azog, Radbug, Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman. Not even remotely Germanic or Arab-sounding. Linguists have drawn comparison between Black Speech and ancient Mesopotamian languages, specifically Hurro-Urartian languages, which originated in what is now the Armenian Highlands. Again, not remotely Arabic, which is Semitic language. The only comparisons to Germanic languages I can think of in the Tolkien universe are dwarves and men.

    If you're gonna accuse a dead person of something awful, have your facts straight.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Harad/Haradrim/ Swirters were basically Arabic/African dark skinned swarthy people that served as heroless bad guys, unless I missed out on something. https://share.google/GGo7jZXCys45ZC8W7

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    The Haradrim swore allegiance to Sauron after long years of oppression by the Númenóreans and conflict with Gondor, during which Sauron worked to seduce them to his side. However, not all of them joined Sauron. Many sided with the blue wizards. You could draw parallels to modern times; not all Russians support Putin, and not all Iranians support Khomeini.

    It's worth mentioning Dunlendings also went the same way after excessive Númenórean exploitation of their natural resources and resulting wars. They fought for Saruman (Sauron by proxy) alongside Uruk-hai in Helm's Deep.

    Of course the Haradrim were dark-skinned - they were from the southern hemisphere of Arda, the huge landmass south of Gondor and Mordor. Most of it is on or below the equator.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Mount DOOM has entered the chat

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Maybe that's why Tolkien wrote a ton of books while most of us get stuck in the character creation screen of Baldur's Gate 3 choosing a name for 7 hours.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    To be fair, sounds a bit weird when you speak his name in portuguese...

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    In a world where a guy named Big Balls has had control over federal budget allocations, I can accept this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    The man understood what language and names are used for, to say the least.

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