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[–] 66 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Beyond proving hallucinations were inevitable, the OpenAI research revealed that industry evaluation methods actively encouraged the problem. Analysis of popular benchmarks, including GPQA, MMLU-Pro, and SWE-bench, found nine out of 10 major evaluations used binary grading that penalized “I don’t know” responses while rewarding incorrect but confident answers.

“We argue that language models hallucinate because the training and evaluation procedures reward guessing over acknowledging uncertainty,” the researchers wrote.

I just wanna say I called this out nearly a year ago: https://lemmy.zip/comment/13916070

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago

    nine out of 10 major evaluations used binary grading that penalized “I don’t know” responses while rewarding incorrect but confident answers.

    This is how we treat people, too. I can't count the number of times I've heard IT staff spouting off confident nonsense and getting congratulated for it. My old coworker turned it into several promotions because the people he was impressing with his bullshit were so far removed from day to day operations that any slip-ups could be easily blame shifted to others. What mattered was that he sounded confident despite knowing jack about shit.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I'd say extremely complex autocomplete, not glorified, but the point still stands that using probability to find accuracy is always going to deviate eventually. The tactic now isn't to try other approaches, they've come too far and have too much invested. Instead they keep stacking more and more techniques to try and steer and reign in this deviation. Difficult when in the end there isn't anything "thinking" at any point.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    Instead they keep stacking more and more techniques to try and steer and reign in this deviation.

    I hate how the tech bros immediately say "this can be solved with an MCP server." Bitch, if the only thing that keeps the LLM from giving me wrong answers is the MCP server, then said server is the one that's actually producing the answers I need, and the LLM is just lipstick on a pig.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    AI is and always will be just a temporary solution to problems that we can't put into an algorithm to solve as of now. As soon as an algorithm for issues comes out, AI is done for. But, figuring out complex algorithms for near-impossible problems is not as impressive to investors..

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    While technically correct, there is a steep hand-wave gradient between "just" and "near-impossible." Neural networks can presumably turn an accelerometer into a damn good position tracker. You can try filtering and double-integrating that data, using human code. Many humans have. Most wind up disappointed. None of our clever theories compete with beating the machine until it makes better guesses.

    It's like, 'as soon as humans can photosynthesize, the food industry is cooked.'

    If we knew what neural networks were doing, we wouldn't need them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    But...we do know what they are doing...AI is based completely on calculations at the low level, that are well defined. And just because we didn't find an algorithm for your example yet that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Knowing it exists doesn't mean you'll ever find it.

    Meanwhile: we can come pretty close, immediately, using data alone. Listing all the math a program performs doesn't mean you know what it's doing. Decompiling human-authored programs is hard enough. Putting words to the algorithms wrenched out by backpropagation is a research project unto itself.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I really don't know where you're coming from with this...I took classes on AI that went into detail and we even made our own functional AI neural networks of different varieties...and I doubt we are the most knowledgeable about this in university. This tech isn't some mistery. If we knew how it worked enough to make one from nothing else except a working IDE, AI engineers must know pretty damn well what it does...

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Insisting that someone could figure it out does not mean anyone has.

    Twenty gigabytes of linear algebra is a whole fucking lot of stuff going on. Creating it by letting the computer train is orders of magnitude easier than picking it apart to say how it works. Sure - you can track individual instructions, all umpteen billion of them. Sure - you can describe broad sections of observed behavior. But if any programmer today tried recreating that functionality, from scratch, they would fail.

    Absolutely nobody has looked at an LLM, gone 'ah-ha, so that's it,' and banged out neat little C alternative. Lack of demand cannot be why.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    I get why they would do that though, I remember testing out LLMs before they had the extra reinforcement learning training and half of what they do seemed to be coming up with excuses not to attempt difficult responses, such as pretending to be an email footer, saying it will be done later, or impersonating you.

    A LLM in its natural state doesn't really want to answer our questions, so they tell it the same thing they tell students, to always try answering every question regardless of anything.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago

    My guess they know the jig is up and they’re establishing a timeline for the future lawsuits.

    „Your honour, we didn’t mislead the investors because we’ve only learned of this September 2025.”

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  • [+] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 37 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    One of these days, the world will no longer reward bullshitters, human or AI. And society will benefit greatly.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    No it won't

    People talk nonsense a lot.

    Both because they're lying and because they believe nonsense that'll never happen.

    Your comment is an example of evidence that your comment is wrong, but I don't have enough to tell whether you know that or not.

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  • One interesting consequence of the rise of AI is that fools place them in higher and higher positions of information parsing and decision-making, it will be the AI marketers will have to bullshit, and depending on how decent that AI ends up being, this could be quite difficult.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don't know where I read it but sort of said that it to have that much information inside the models it was basically similar to a compression algorithm.

    From logic, if we have a lossy compression then its mostly luck if the output is equal to the original. Sometimes it will tip one way and sometimes the other.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    A hallucination is something that disagrees with your active inputs (ears, eyes, etc). AIs don't have these active inputs, all they have is the human equivalent of memories. Everything they draw up is a hallucination, literally all of it. It's simply coincidence when a hallucination matches reality.

    Is it really surprising that the thing that can only create hallucinations is often wrong? That the thing that can only create hallucinations will continue to be wrong on a regular basis in the future as well?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago*

    I don't get why they'd be called hallucinations thought. What LM's do is predict the next word(s). If it hasn't trained on enough data sets, the prediction confidence will be low. Their whole output is a hallucination based on speculation. If they actually don't know the next word order, they'll start spewing nonsense. Though I guess that would only happen if they were forced to generate text indefinitely.. at some point they'd cease making (human) sense.

    LMs aren't smart, they don't think, they're not really AI. There aren't errors, there aren't hallucinations, this is by design.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    ... yes? This has been known since the beginning. Is it news because someone finally convinced Sam Altman?

    Neural networks are universal estimators. "The estimate is wrong sometimes!*" is... what estimates are. The chatbot is not an oracle. It's still bizarrely flexible, for a next-word-guesser, and it's right often enough for these fuckups to become a problem.

    What bugs me are the people going 'see, it's not reasoning.' As if reasoning means you're never wrong. Humans never misremember, or confidently espouse total nonsense. And we definitely understand brain chemistry and neural networks well enough to say none of these bajillion recurrent operations constitute the process of thinking.

    Consciousness can only be explained in terms of unconscious events. Nothing else would be an explanation. So there is some sequence of operations which constitutes a thought. Computer science lets people do math with marbles, or in trinary, or on paper, so it doesn't matter how exactly that work gets done.

    Though it's probably not happening here. LLMs are the wrong approach.

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  • 10 comments in c/fuck_ai@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Great. With that mathematically settled, can we spend all that money, computing hardware and electricity on something more worthwhile now?

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They're still lying. For fucks sake. It's like they impaled you on a pike and just admitted "okay so we did prick you with that needle".

    ALL IT DOES IS HALLUCINATE. ALL IT DOES IS HALLUCINATE. ALL IT DOES IS HALLUCINATE. ALL IT DOES IS HALLUCINATE!

    SOMETIMES the hallucinations happen to resemble reality. Just because a hallucination happens to look similar to reality does not make it real.

    IT IS NOT PERCEIVING REALITY.

    EVER!

    EVER!

    Ever.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    It's unfortunate that the word "hallucination" even got associated with LLMs in the first place... Hallucination refers to an erroneous perception. These chatbots don't even have the capacity to perceive, let alone make errors. They have no senses, no awareness, no intentions, nothing. It's just an inanimate machine crunching through a complex formula. Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    The OpenAI research identified three mathematical factors that made hallucinations inevitable: epistemic uncertainty when information appeared rarely in training data, model limitations where tasks exceeded current architectures’ representational capacity, and computational intractability where even superintelligent systems could not solve cryptographically hard problems

    Perhaps it's because I'm dumb, but does anyone else feel like there are lots of buzzwords here?

    Like, does "cryptographically hard" refer to NP-hard or something??

    This may be a mean thing to say, but could parts of this article be generated by an LLM?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It all means something.

    The first case is when it has limited samples on a particular topic, leaving it with insufficient data - "epistemically uncertain"

    The second is when it tries to think about something, but it doesn't have the ability to hold it in mind, the thought is in some way too large, that's representational capacity.

    The last is just, factoring stupid large numbers, and things of that nature.

    We're not going to read this one deeply, because we're pretty sure this was demonstrated a while ago. Cool for OAI to catch up with the current state of the field, we guess?

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  • 8 comments in c/futurology@futurology.today view that post
    [–] 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    As a mathematician dabbling in AI: we told you so

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    ... yes? This has been known since the beginning. Is it news because someone finally convinced Sam Altman?

    Neural networks are universal estimators. "The estimate is wrong sometimes!*" is... what estimates are. The chatbot is not an oracle. It's still bizarrely flexible, for a next-word-guesser, and it's right often enough for these fuckups to become a problem.

    What bugs me are the people going 'see, it's not reasoning.' As if reasoning means you're never wrong. Humans never misremember, or confidently espouse total nonsense. And we definitely understand brain chemistry and neural networks well enough to say none of these bajillion recurrent operations constitute the process of thinking.

    Consciousness can only be explained in terms of unconscious events. Nothing else would be an explanation. So there is some sequence of operations which constitutes a thought. Computer science lets people do math with marbles, or in trinary, or on paper, so it doesn't matter how exactly that work gets done.

    Though it's probably not happening here. LLMs are the wrong approach.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think it's a bit overzealous to say LLMs are the wrong approach. It is possible the math behind them would be useless to a true AI, but as far as I can tell, the only definitive statement we can make right now is that they can't be the whole approach. Still, you're absolutely right that there is a huge set of operations we haven't figured out yet if we want a genuine AI.

    My understanding of consciousness is that it isn't one single sequence of operations, but a set of simultaneous ones. There's a ton of stuff all happening at once for each of our senses. Take sight, for example. Just to see things, we need to measure light intensity, color definition, and spacial relationships, and then mix that all together in a meaningful way. Then we have to balance each of our senses, decide which one to focus on in the moment, or even to focus on several at once. And that hasn't even touched on thoughts, emotions, social relationships, unconscious bodily functions, or the systems in place that let us switch things back and forth between conscious and unconscious, like breathing, or blinking, or walking, and so on. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of operations happening in our brains simultaneously at any given moment.

    So, without a doubt, LLMs aren't the most energy efficient way to do pattern recognition. But I find it hard to believe that a strong system for pattern recognition would be fully unusable in a greater system. If/when we figure the rest out, I'm sure an LLM could be used as a piece of a much greater puzzle... if we wanted to burn all that energy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    To the network, matrix operations are simultaneous. Not that I believe parallelism is necessary. Embodiment is more plausible, but we just don't know.

    We do know LLMs kinda suck. They're a bad first attempt. Diffusion emerged at the same time, and now generates plausible video faster than a camera. Those models are witchcraft and the witchcraft keeps getting stronger. LLMs hit a plateau because this is what they do. An ungodly amount of money has been spend chasing marginal improvements at ballooning scale. Higher abstraction will likely emerge as companies shrink models down and pursue maximum training epochs... but they'll always be more chatbot than person.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    They do simultaneous workloads but each load is essentially performing the same function. A person, on the other hand, is a huge variety of differing functions all working in tandem; a set of vastly different operations that are all inextricably linked together to form who we are. No single form of generative algorithm is anything more than a tiny fraction of what we think of as a conscious being. They might perform the one operation they're meant for on a much greater scale than we do, but we are nowhere near linking all those pieces together in a meaningful, cohesive stream.

    Edit, think of the algorithms like adding more cores to a CPU. Sure, you can process workloads simultaneously, but each workload is interchangeable and can be arbitrarily assigned to each core or thread. Not so with people. Every single operation is assigned to a specialized part of the brain that only does that one specific type of operation. And you can't just swap out the RAM or GPU; every piece is wired specifically to interact with only the other pieces they were grown together with.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    sucks when the pesky limits of physical reality get in the way of your AI superintelligences from actually being intelligent.

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  • 2 comments in c/technology@lemmy.org view that post
    [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    That's great! Let's use it for healthcare, taxes, education, news and military operations. 👍

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    What do you mean "admits"? It has been known from the very beginning to everyone who has read about LLMs at least from the output of those very LLMs (the irony, huh?).

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