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[–] 71 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Microsoft is already starting to lay the groundwork with their CPU, SecureBoot, and TPM 2.0 requirements.

Apple has been doing this for a long time, though there are ways to get around it on MacOS, for now.

On PC, the answer is Linux. For mobile devices, things are looking more bleak.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Linux won't be an option if the boot loader is locked. I think Linux is just about popular enough that options should remain but they might become reduced unless it becomes more popular than it currently is.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'd imagine not every mobo manufacturer will play ball with whoever mandates a locked bootloader.

    Right now, we have google and apple with a duopoly on mobile devices.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    The grand majority of all laptops and desktop devices are using motherboards manufactured specifically for those devices (or device series). It's not much of a stretch to imagine them adding restrictions to their already mature supply chain.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Linux is heavily used on servers. Losing server sector means a huge chunk of revenue.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago

    Linux is servers.

    Hell, VMware migrated to a Linux base a while back, and with their new exorbitant pricing, large environments are switching to things like Proxmox.

    The next ten years, VMware will be second string virtualization, even in data centers.

    I'm not sure what's going to happen, but there was a "BIOS War" in the 80's,when IBM wouldn't release their BIOS code, so other devs reverse engineered it. No reason why that couldn't happen again.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    The situation is actually quite awful. I remember when TPM was palladium and there were apocalyptic talks in tech conferences about it being the end of general purpose computers. The idea that your computer could veto what it was used for.

    The backlash only set them back a few decades apparently. Everyone forgot and now it's a literal requirement for the latest Windows and in two months they'll stop supporting the old Windows..

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    Next phone I get I'll get fairphone and check the market for an alternative OS at that time. This might be the push that the Linux phone community needs to make it proper and good.

    We currently need a KDE phone that they sell where I can buy a KDE phone and support them that way.

    The pieces are coming together for Linux notably:

    • SPA support instead of apps.
    • Waydroid
    • Core components such as calling, sim card actions, recording, speakers can be provided by fairphone via drivers.

    I'm getting pretty sick of Google and other corpos locking down Android so fuck them, third best phone OS will have to do and I'll do banking in the mobile browser page.

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  • [–] 62 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    This is what happened when we allowed companies with a profit incentive to code our devices. Linux will always be free, and there will be companies that design computers for Linux, such as Fairphone, Framework, Furi, Fedora, and probably some that don't start with F too

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's been tried a bit before, but didn't get through. The current situation with secure boot is worrying, because we're one manufacturer playing ball away from it to become a reality.

    I'd like to say there's strong incentive to not do that, but it seems that logic alone would not stop this kind of push. And weirdly enough, even financial risk might not be enough, as we've seen baffling decisions made these last few months.

    The main saving graces is that there are more than two manufacturer for motherboard, and as far as I know, patent lockdown and secrecy isn't as big on PC hardware than on mobile boards, so it might be easier to escape such lockdown. But fully locked down systems under external control is clearly where some people wants us to go.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Users are getting dumber by the day. The people arguing back to me about "this is a you problem" when I mention reasons why device ownership is important is way too fucking high.

    This is why you gatekeep hobbies. Keep the dipshits out so they don't become the masses that ruin what you enjoy.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Exactly, if I like something I try to keep it on the down low, or only spread it in circles where I know it will be similarly appreciated, the moment a majority of the people are into something, that thing will now get subjected to external influences that require it to be liked by everyone and most people are mediocre so the thing moves towards mediocrity

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  • It's been done before. ChromeBooks comes to mind, but there have been others. Usually winds up killing the outfit that tries it.

    As far as I know Chromebooks only survive because of the educational market. Locked down devices are preferable in schools.

    I won't buy one, but I could see such systems becoming dominant in another 20 years or so.

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  • [–] 137 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    With Linux being the standard for server systems there is no way to force locked bootloaders everywhere without making the whole web and a lot of companies collapse. But I expect more limitations regarding desktop systems. It's hard to tell at this point because it's a complex issue, not only from an economical but also political point of view (Mass surveillance).

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Don't I own this hardware? Can I not do what I want with it?

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  • [–] 82 points 1 year ago

    No, because fuck you. Ownership is for pussies, do you really want to own what you buy? Just buy a new one if you have problems. my hope is that we eventually get to a point where you cant even build your own PC. Gaming PCs all built by Nvidia woth the latest Geforce built in to the motherboard. With a subscription fee to use it, im talking cheap like only $20/month. and then in a year it can sleep gently in a landfill. Oh and a feature that sets your house on fire and mangles your genitals. and if you try to turn that off, you get sued. it was in the TOS, just dont use a computer if that bothers you, shithead. the future is bright.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Your account is marked as a bot by the way, you can fix that in your user settings

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    I already did, but thanks nonethless.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Oh sorry about that, it's still showing up as a bot for me but it's fine on your instance. I think the information just hasn't federated over to lemmy.ca yet

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Interesting. Maybe it helps if I log off?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    It might, but I think it might be a federation bug between our instances. I haven't seen one like this before, but I'll keep an eye out to see if it happens again / there's a pattern.

    You could also try setting yourself as a bot, saving, and then reversing it again. That might prompt your instance to send out the information again.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Thanks, I will try to switch it on and off again.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    If it helps, you don't show up as a bot from my instance

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Good to hear that. Mabye this did the trick. Some hickups like that can be expected.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oof. Well, at this point I can't do anything else. I guess I have to live as a cyborg now. Could be worse.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Maybe try touching a little grass too

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Thanks, I already did. Plenty of grass where I am.

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Too late to do this for PCs. You already have Linux laptop providers and Linux distros supported by corporations. Most of the components have multiple providers. You will be able to source "unlocked" hardware from somewhere.

    The problem with mobile is that the hardware is too complicated for open source projects to handle. Many have tried, all have failed. So far. Hopefully we will finally see something usable come out of projects like PinePhone and PostmarketOS.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    all have failed

    Here I sit, an eternal failure.

    • posted from my Oneplus 6T on PostmarketOS

    To be honest, I don't have any hope. I just keep running. When I run out of places to hide, maybe I'll give computers up and get into philosophy or something. If only 1M signatures carried the weight of $1M, we might stand a chance.

    Where from here? Keep finding obscure ways to use computers freely, different chipsets, virtualization, remote access, whatever it takes. Fuck Microsoft, Google and Apple.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    What makes mobile hardware more complicated than desktop hardware?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    It's a long history lesson. But the gist is that IBM made an architecture that allowed for modular LEGO style construction of computers. They were assholes and tried to make it lock down by keeping software secret and proprietary, but it was so popular that everyone else copied it and IBM/PC clones were born. Then the architecture became the standard, and everyone could make components for a PC with (more or less) assurance that any component made would be compatible and fit into (almost) any other computer.

    Phones, on the other hand were born out of the necessity of being the smallest and most portable device possible. This meant bespoke solutions. The people who were chasing that format chose an architecture, ARM, that at the time required everything to be on a single chip. Memory, storage, CPU, CMOS, everything has to be on the chip. Which means exchanging parts is not possible. System on chip became the smart phone standard. Now, technically ARM doesn't have to always be SOC. But it means two things, first is that every phone model is an unique and bespoke production that will never exist again once out of print. Second, it is a Titanic task to reverse engineer certain parts of it, firmware for sensor input is always unique, for example.

    This means that FOSS is at a disadvantage. To make free open software for a phone means that, either a manufacturer is magnanimous and gives you all the firmware, or after a major effort to reverse engineer lots of pieces of software, it will be useless for the next model of phone. You either make your own open standard phone, which is a several billion dollar r&d endeavor. Or you're constantly shooting at a fast moving target.

    No one has created an open standard that allows small component manufacturing of mutually interchangeable parts for phones. Risc-v is close but not yet terribly financially viable.

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  • It's not any one platform that is too complicated, it's that none of it was standardized. So once you have support for one phone completely done, the next model is already released 6 months ago and you have to start almost from scratch again.

    Pixel was one exception to this, because Google would release and document all the modifications needed to run Android. Unfortunately they stopped doing this as well.

    Contrast this to the x86 PC and laptop market and everything basic, like how to discover hardware, how to boot is all a documented standard. Even though on PC, you still have to deal with drivers for specific hardware.

    Another reason why PC is much easier for Linux is that much of the hardware is shared with servers and for servers, Linux is absolutely a first class operating system, which all but some extremely niche hardware manufacturers fully support.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago*

    You need way, way better sleep handling. To get decent battery life everything needs to be able to go to sleep really fast but also be able to listen for signals from specific devices like GSM modem and wake up immediately. Without it it's not really usable. Desktop PCs didn't have any sleep functionality for a very long time and even now they mostly just disable everything and wait for a button press. Sleep/wake-up cycle can last couple of seconds without issues.

    Mobile hardware also has more devices. I don't have GPS, GSM, accelerometer or finger print reader in my laptop. When Linux was developed they also didn't have cameras or bluetooth. A lot of this additional devices are not easily available like PC parts and require closed source drivers and firmware.

    To make a usable mobile phone you need to figure out all if it at once. You can't really release a phone without GPS or GSM and expect people to use it as a daily driver. With PC you can live without the camera or build in WiFi. I remember using USB dongles for WiFi and simply not having a working camera in my Linux laptops and I was fine with it.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    What are these Linux laptop providers going to sell if they can't order anything from the factory that lets them change the software because reasons

    Just updated my pinephone the other day. It's not spectacular in terms of usability. It does the bare minimum at the bare minimum.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I'm saying that there's enough laptop providers and enough different factories to maintain supply of unlocked hardware. You don't have to worry about locked CPU/GPUs, only about locked bootloaders which have a lot of different providers. With mobiles it's easier to lock because it's all packed into SOCs and you don't have as much choice for latest hardware.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Too late to do this for PCs.

    let me tell you about this little thing called windows 11.

    I know for a fact that this is exactly where compute is going, just look at the aggressive moves that MS has been making over the last 15-25 years.

    it starts with requiring an always on connection, and ends with hardware lockout like Mac has.

    sure Linux will be an option... but for how much longer? all the old devs are retiring and the new ones....god help us. they want to rewrite it like any greenhorn, and they want to use...rust??!

    I give it 10-15 years before hardware locks out Linux, and Linux is dying.

    I'm a Linux user btw, so don't think I'm a MS or Mac fan.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Just to add on top of that I think Linux will be good as long as Torvalds is alive. After that who knows what would happen. They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ? We are lucky we live in times where we have a choice.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ?

    Who are "they"?

    It seams you don't know how Linux kernel is maintained. Linus is simply releasing the most commonly used versions of it. Nothing stops you from choosing a different one. If someone takes over the main kernel and starts doing weird things distros will simply package another kernel by default.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I would say if/when PCs move over to ARM than we very well may see the same issues mobile devices have. There is a severe lack of Linux compatibility due to proprietary drivers, sometimes no drivers at all, no software support, and no device trees.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I have the ubuntu 25 concept installed on my snapdragon HP Omnibook 14

    Other than a few software hiccups you would expect of a "concept build" it works almost perfectly and is now my daily driver. Actually getting the OS on the machine was pretty easy too, it has something akin to a bios. the process isn't all that different.

    The more difficult bit was getting the drivers working after installing the OS. no all of them have been released under license yet so some of them you have to poach from the windows partition. also audio required some tweaking.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And just like that I’m all about Ubuntu phones now

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's probably why risc-v is getting quite popular in embedded stuff - smaller companies wanting more supply chain independence. Hopefully it'll start to get more powerful soon for more serious computing. Its nice that stuff like debian now has risk-v version too.

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    [+] 23 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    And wasn't there already some kind of security certificate issue with secure boot? It is like always, in the name of security and safety the free software/hardware gets locked away and ends up being less secure afterwards.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Linux on the phone has come a long way I hear. I have been meaning to buy one and see if it can be my daily driver. Google being shitty would definitely push me there

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I even liked the idea I saw mentioned today where maybe it's time for 2 devices.

    One that just does phone calls and SMS.

    The other is a tiny portable Linux computer that does everything else. Who needs android or apps anyway?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    That seems inconvenient. Can Linux phones not do calls and SMS?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Calls and SMS work in more than half of the phones that can run Linux. Here's a list: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There's also Europe, which has led the way in regulating against monopolistic power for Big Tech.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, i'm pretty sure the EU wont approve of locking down PCs that way. I'm also pretty sure that Googles current moves regarding the registration of developers and locking down sideloading will not be seen positively in the current climate, where the EU seeks to become more independent from Silicon Valley. The EU has been adamant in their view that users should not be limited to one market on phones; i believe that trying to lock down PCs would lead to legislation forbidding that.

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  • [–] 88 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's called secure boot and it's been around for over 10 years now.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And the first iteration was much more locked down, only got changed after public complaints.

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  • [+] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago

    IIRC the first draft had the keys all controlled by Microsoft, with no option to use your own, and no option to disable it. Don't think the GPL had anything to do with it directly, though it was people wanting to use Linux (and other systems than the one pre-installed) on their own hardware that complained.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    IIRC, I had a PC (since sold) that had secure boot permanently enabled from the factory. That is, in spirit, a PC with a "locked bootloader", but you might not even notice because many Linux distros have that Microsoft-blessed Linux loading shim... but it is still Microsoft inserting themselves between you and your hardware; they could decide in the next few years they no longer "support" Linux, hypothetically.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    Expect specialist "open" hardware capable of installing any software/OS to become increasingly expensive, while increasingly locked-down, mass-produced consumer hardware remains at current price. You only need to look at TVs for an example of this - try finding a recent non-smart TV at a reasonable price as the cheap models are all subsidised by the revenue from pushing ads into your face.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    This is already happening, but it's on an organisational level by policy. These policies can be applied to systems that follow trusted computing rules, which is most Windows 10 systems and pretty much all windows 11 systems. Google has laid the groundwork for this since the pixel 3 was released in 2018.

    Since then, we have seen Google put the Titan security module in all phones and I'm certain Chromebooks are requiring TPM modules that serve the same function.

    Apple has been doing the same since God knows when. Their systems have had unique chips that ensure that when MacOS is installed, it is only installed in Apple computers. There are ways around this, just as there are ways around the TPM requirement for Windows 11.

    The trusted computing model, when fully imposed, can basically stop any applications from running that have not been given the blessing of the security team.

    As far as I'm aware, the only people taking advantage of the technology are government institutions.

    The fact that this can be wielded to enforce control over private individuals by our corporate masters is becoming a very real possibility, but the fact that it hasn't happened yet, by any vendor, is, in my opinion, good evidence to say that it's unlikely, but not impossible. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

    In any case, the only truly free operating system left is GNU/Linux, with few other exceptions.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They're waiting until all the products in the wild can be locked down.

    Right now, they're struggling to get people.to jump to Windows 11, and people are hoarding their old computers. They want all the products that don't have TPM or its equivalent to be outmoded before they remove the mask.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Maybe. In my experience business isn't that patient.

    A TPM is otherwise a good thing. It can extend cryptographic capabilities and the overall security stance of the system.

    But I digress. I will reserve judgement for now. Time will tell either way, and I don't think anyone will feel like gloating if they start to lock it down like you believe they will.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Such pcs already exist and are used by buinesses and schools all over... Mostly chromebooks and i suppose apple also fits that criteria.

    But it would be very hard to stop a determined hacker who has physical access to a device and doesnt mind voiding any warranties or user agreements.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Most Chromebooks can have other operating systems. Many have a bypass, mine needed to have the battery disconnected from the motherboard while installing the os, then you could connect it back and be done.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    yes most chromebooks if you own them you do what you want because google knows even if they did lock them down more someone out there would be waiting with a soldering iron to figure out how to mod them into running other things. But thats not the same thing as a company that buys devices for their employees and doesnt give said employees permission to open them (without risking their job anyway). The point being, the "demand" for such systems is already mostly met, normal PC users/ gamers wouldnt actually buy a product like that, because if they did it would just be a "Console". You couldnt force it on users because there isn't a monopoly of PCs like there is with phones or game consoles

    Actually I should have said in my original post, Game Consoles also qualify, because the PS4/5 Xbox whatever, the last 2 generations they're literally just locked down PCs with very specific hardware.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    I kind of expect this to happen with Apple's rumored $600 macbook. Since they just updated ipadOS to run like a locked down version of macOS. I bet they will offer this cheap mac with the same locked down OS since it will have a "phone" processor in it.

    They will say this was a compromise needed, but the majority of people will not care. After a few years, the macs that are open will get more and more expensive.

    I'm guessing Windows will slowly start to move in thie direction, but I think they will try to push their remote computers thing to accomplish this.

    I'm not sure about bootloaders being locked, I am guessing there will always be something that is unlocked and able to run linux though. It is needed for servers and stuff like that. In the worst case, someone will likely sell arm or risc-v powered boards that can be used to run linux.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    It's almost already like this. In my country every single bank reinvented the wheel by creating a single purpose app which does what aegis does (otp generation from a seed) but with some bits changed (one for example "encrypted" the seed with ROT13) and with draconian measures like bootloader must be locked, adb must be disabled, and are using literal exploits to see if you have "forbidden" directories on /sdcard like/sdcard/magisk even if no file access is granted

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    it's not almost worldwide? By reading all the forum posts with us nerds damning the bank app developers for the antiroot checks, it seems a widespread problem

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Nah, Half of the credit unions in the US use online banking software that uses TOTP for 2FA.

    My bank in EU does not, so I have to have a physical hardware token to generate OTPs, due to broken regulations

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