Absolutely it should be tagged, and I think the AI Generated Content Disclosure from the store page could be included in the post body too for Steam games.
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Yes, 100% mandatory!
Of course, that needs to be mandatory!
100% without question I support that.
Ok, thanks everyone for your input, here's the new rule I've added to the sticky post:
If the game has an "AI Disclosure" then please include it in the post body too
Hopefully this allows interested readers to get the info without too much extra effort required by the posters, but don't forget the golden rule: keep it civil and keep it chill!
It's to the point where everything that's AI should have to be flagged with AI. That way we know it's AI so we can avoid it.
I mean, the least we can do in this community is to do a little research and post whether we're unsure/definitely know if it has AI.
If I find any that I post here, going forward I'll make sure to consciously put a note in the title concerning AI.
In principle, I think having these tags would be a good thing. I don't know about making it a hard requirement though as in many cases, posters may not know for sure whether AI was used or not.
I think it could also be relevant to know how AI was used. For me, there's a big difference between a vibe-coded project full of generated assets and a game where AI was just used for something like debugging.
So maybe, one way to go about it is to have a short Steam-Style "AI-disclosure" in the description for games, where that information is available or obvious. Like "Uses AI-generated 2D-Assets" or "Uses AI for text translations" etc. But as I wrote, I would make it a suggestion rather than a requirement.
As the person who posts the most here my main question is how? I don't have any way to know what was used beyond what is posted on the game's page. Some sites like Steam force disclosure, so anyone interested can just look there. Some like Itch don't even enforce a description of the game so you've got no idea with them!
"AI" is a generic marketing term for a load of different things (for instance you might have different opinions on generating all your graphics compared to translating your game into another language compared to using a code assist compared to cloning an entire game), so a catch-all "uses AI" term isn't necessarily relevant to everyone.
Ultimately if you're posting you've always been free to put as much or as little info in the post description as you like, and to add extra info in the comments if you find something relevant about someone else's post.
My suggestion would be that any ai disclosures the developers make (whether they say it contains AI or if they explicitly say it does not) should be included in the post body. Obviously sometimes people overlook things, but I think it would be a good norm for the community.
Obviously it's your comm so do what you want with it :)
Seems fair, I usually copy the description anyway so if there's some disclosure it's not much extra effort to copy that too. Other posters don't always add a post description though, so I'm not going to start deleting posts just because that info is missing!
Would you mind at least "recommending" it in the sidebar?
Some like Itch don’t even enforce a description of the game so you’ve got no idea with them!
Itch doesn't force a description, but they do force a 'do you use gen AI' tag. You can even filter on use of gen AI now.
Thank you for dedicating your time to create these posts. :)
Yep, please at least copy any disclosure the devs have made!
Would also appreciate a "could not find disclosure" for everything else.
100% for this. I don't think people should get up in arms if the fact it used AI in development is not clearly available, but if its right there on the steam page it should be tagged.
imo tagging is not enough, they should be shunned to their own sublemmy(?)
Pretty sure they're called communities.
That seems overly harsh as not everyone minds it like I do. If you'd like to create your own no-AI-allowed free games comm, no one is stopping you!
hey, i was asked for my opinion and that's what i provided. i think the way AI slop infects and corrodes communities and trust is underrated atm.
is a tag only to filter for something or can you set a tag to "ignore"?
I think that varies from client to client
if you can't ignore it it's not going to be useful for people who don't want to see it.
I think that's maybe possible, but may not be required. I personally don't like heavy-handed moderation. I prefer people to make decisions for themselves. Tagging AI allows users to know what they're seeing and choose for themselves whether to ignore it, downvote it, or block it on their own. It's their choice.
If someone decides to create a generative AI community for games because people here dislike them then great. It's their choice.
they should be shunned to their own sublemmy(?)
I think my Lemmy client can just block the tag, so I don't mind, either way.
I think first you'd have to define "made with AI". I have personally given up worrying about AI usage in the code-side, but I definitely do want to know if the game has visible AI assets / audio
Well if the developers used AI then it was made with AI. If they didn't use any AI then it was made without AI. I don't think that's a complicated definition at all.
Having a description of exactly how AI was used would also be nice, yes.
What about if it’s just for proofreading or a spellcheck? A lot of them are no different or fancier than what’s included in Word or other text programs. Those shouldn’t be clumped into the same group.
There needs to be a line between generative, and tools.
Whatever is disclosed on the store page should be copied into the post body. I don't think that's a monumental ask.
I don't work for Epic, Steam, Google, etc so what to disclose is above my pay grade.
Almost all developers are using AI to some degree from what I can tell, I end up having to tag most posts on my emulation community as "AI Assisted" after wasting my own free time looking through repositories for open source software and I still miss things because I'm not a developer myself. Disclosure is hit and miss. Some devs even actively try to hide it. No doubt the few other contributors miss things as well. On top of that Lemmy still doesn't support tags like Pylova/Piefed do. What a fucking mess.
It's getting to the point where I'm considering removing that tag and replacing it with "Human Coded" or "AI Free" because that's becoming the exception instead. Currently I think that makes more sense and promotes attention to the exceptional tag, instead of everyone getting complacent and beginning to just ignore the tags because almost everything will end up having Anti AI tagging. It's just natural human behavior to start filtering out redundant noise. Have not committed yet, I can be discouraged or encouraged on this strategy here.
100% vibe slop (pure agentic programming) by non-programmers is remaining banned to be clear. That's easy to spot at least. The reddit community allows it, it's like wading through sewege looking for gold nuggets and then learning half of what you found is Fool's Gold instead.
It's also adding a lot of homework to a voluntary effort running the community I didn't ask for or anticipate when I started it.
It'd be nice if I could share these thoughts without risking zealots on either side downvoting me but I also anticipate that which is rather unfair. I'm just trying to navigate a new reality, it's not locked in yet. That's... why I'm here 😆.
In that scenario they used ai to spell check. So it’s made with ai
The idea continues to hold water :]
But what is considered Ai? Those spellchecks are functionally identical, so anyone who has used words spellcheck would need to disclose Ai.
There’s tools in photoshop that use Ai or very similar systems. They would need to disclose as well.
It’s not a s simple as people are making out to be. A local model isn’t the same as LLM and generative content. They fall under being similar to spellcheck, and procedural generated content, or autofill tools.
Your idea is a sieve though, yeah it “holds” water, but there’s so many flaws and issues, it just doesn’t make sense.
Even translators were running what could be considered ai a decade ago. Where’s the line? We got to go back to not even using spellcheck? Yeah, no, let’s be realistic about this.
Yes, disclose those too!!
I have absolutely zero problem in letting me have a more informed choice. Disclose all the tools used and people will select what they tolerate themselves.
Doesn’t even need to be a detailed thing, “local self trained LLM used, photoshop used, this grammar check website used” is perfect cause I’d see ‘local self trained LLM’ and nope out anyway
So what, they pay someone who just goes and does the same thing and now they can avoid disclosing it?
You don’t know what parts of your tools you’re already using could have been ai, or the artist you paid touched something up in PS, but now you can say OC from a paid artist. Does that make a lick of sense to you?
You think if you pay a proof reader they’re not gonna go and put it into word to look for basic mistakes first?
If you did a search you definitely do know what parts of the tools are ai because that’s a hot topic right now. And commissioning an artist who you know uses ai should be disclosed all the same, both as a matter of crediting that artist and in the ai disclosure. “Assets made by Mr. Artist” minimum, who I can then also look up. “Assets made by Mr. Artist using photoshop” is preferable though. A dev should at least know what tool their artist is using, else that lack of care is just as reflective of the final product as ai
A dev should at least know what tool their artist is using,
Lmfao, try asking the contractor working on your house for the list of tools they used. You’re delusional. Do you think that contractor knows what tools were used to make their hammer? Their tiles? Where does this end dude Jesus. It just doesn’t matter, that’s the point and problem, you’re paying someone else who is supposed to take the liability and issues with not doing it right. That doesn’t fall back upwards. That’s just asinine.
What the fuck yes a contractor should know what tools they used? You should know this before you even hire them! And it’s the same with artists, in my experience any artist I’ve talked to is more than happy to talk about what they use when getting a price quote, then I can just look up like “clip studio paint ai” and become informed
You might just have bad contractors or something :[
They know what tools, but they don’t matter to you, if you ask they’ll roll their eyes and just go on a client who is less of a problem and wouldn’t waste their time with frivolous requests and questions that don’t matter. Does it matter if it’s copper hammer or steel hammer? Does it matter if it’s smooth or waffle faced? If you think these questions matter…. You want their brand of chalk line and ingredient list for the chalk? These are the type of questions you’re saying you want to ask of an artist.
You also know that’s not what I said, don’t try to twist my words lol.
Man don’t get aggressive, we were having a nice discussion on how to appropriately tag and now you’re being a dick for no reason
You’re the one putting words in my mouth and twisting my point. If you’re idea of a “nice discussion” is to be outright fallacious, go off buddy.
And you’re idea of appropriate tagging is apparently to go through your contractors with a fine tooth comb, that’s not how things are done.
Nah, it's even worse to have a plethora of existing pre-ai tools and still choosing to use AI for a task. Fuck those people extra hard.
With a local model, what’s the concern? It’s functionally identical to those tools, and could be expanded upon to include your lore and other literature. It can also look for syntax and other things as well. Which are things previous tools aren’t capable of.
There’s different “levels” of ai, even using photoshop has a lot of automated generative content. Those are indistinguishable from ai.
Procedural generated worlds would fall under this umbrella too.
Firefox runs a local LLM to do translation in the browser... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Much to my chagrin, AI has become a very powerful programming tool and is used to write a lot of code.
So much so that a majority of devs I know IRL are basically just code reviewers and don’t actually program like they used to.
Granted, I do not work in the game industry, so it might be different there.
Edit: now that I think about it, just because I don't care doesn't mean it shouldn't be disclosed. I'm just too tired to care at this point, I just wanna play good games, and admittedly I could just ignore the AI discourse around a game i'm interested in. Transparency is good. I'll still leave my original comment below, I tried to explain myself but did so quite poorly I guess:
Because I honestly don't really care about the code, I think a game can be good and worth its price even if the dev used an AI tool somewhere in the programming. I think the game should be judged by how good it is overall, and worrying about the non-visible parts of it is a bit of a waste of time, imo. A buggy mess will always be a buggy mess, and fortunately games have reviews warning users of slop. There are so many aspects to game development and design, that you can quite easily tell when a game was made with passion, instead of being a sloppy cash-grab.
I guess i'm just optimistic that when the AI bubble eventually pops some actually viable, non-destructive and overall helpful tools remain and the slop goes away
Did you use "AI"? Then the answer is yes, full stop. That part is extremely straightforward, just don't lie about it!
Yes, but it should be limited to using ai for assets lit art, voice acting, models, etc.
I don't think should be used to tag games that have used ai as part of their development. Like how are they able to determine how much ai is warranted at tag. Would one dev using ai search to look something up counts as ai use?
I know this isn't what you want to hear but, this is only going to be relevant for a few more months. Everything is going to be built with AI to some extent.
Been hearing that for years now, how AI is only a few months away from a variety of lofty goals. Funny how that never seems to fully materialize
At this point, it's already easier to list what DOESN'T contain AI code than what does. It's only going to get more widespread.
Having a model run a code review isn't lofty goal, it's available right now and it's very good. Anyone who's done this will agree that it's a tool to improve the quality of the code.
The only reason not to do it is ideological, and it's not a hill worth dying on. We already use linters and so on.
100% adoption (the thing we were both referring to until you randomly started talking about something else just now) is a lofty goal yes, one that has been repeated in LLM marketing for years now. Always a few months away.
To address what you randomly just started talking about: Again, we’re on year five of identical testimonials to what you just wrote. Leave us behind if it’s already “very good”. Constant talk of getting left behind but nobody ever actually leaves
Yes, clearly if you don't keep up with the progress then you won't know what it is.
Just one more datacenter bro trust me AGI is here bro we just need to ingest a few million more books bro you'll see bro it's right there. (heavy /s)
It really is available right now though?
You're thinking of "built with AI" as in "make a game, bot", but the reality is "run a full code review" and it's here right now and it's very good.
Yet another person trying to tell a senior software engineer they don't know what they're talking about. I wish I had a penny...
For starters, AGI - Artificial general intelligence. What we have is not general intelligence. It doesn't understand a thing. Two. I've rejected enough AI written code reviews to know that it is not here right now and can in fact not write good code. It can write code that on the surface performs the task desired at best. And that's still pushing it and flawed and poorly architected.
I always find it odd when someone needs to state their credentials to give themselves some credibility - it always has the opposite effect.
Agent code reviews find loads of bugs, some security issues, some user facing, dead code etcetera.
Refusing to use that support is an ideological position.
Given how many people seem to care, perhaps it isn't as irrelevant as you think it is.
What they're saying is, is that so many, if not all games and software will have been developed using AI in some capacity, that it'll make the tag pointless.
Well, then an AI-free tag for developers who proudly avoid it. I'm sure people will continue to care.
I posted this elsewhere but you should read it too:
Having a model run a code review isn’t lofty goal, it’s available right now and it’s very good. Anyone who’s done this will agree that it’s a tool to improve the quality of the code.
The only reason not to do it is ideological, and it’s not a hill worth dying on. We already use linters and so on.
Ideological hills are the only hills worth dying on. Otherwise you're dying over a random patch of earth.
What a silly thing to say. Ideologies are never worth worrying about because they are by definition unsupported by reason.
It seems you've chosen your ideology poorly, then. My ideology attempts to be supported by reason as often as is possible. Of course, there are things reason alone can't tell you (see: the is-ought gap), but of course one ought to follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if that evidence makes you uncomfortable.
I don't do arguments in semantics, but I will note that your definition of "ideology" seems very unusual.
In my view, there's significant evidence that AI tools are very proficient at supporting developers, and that very clearly makes you uncomfortable.
Did your "significant evidence" ignore the massive water use, land use, copyright infringement, and other ethical concerns?
It's not like i'm one of those people from Dune or whatever. I'm not against all machine learning - just these specific tools made by these companies and these specific massive environmental problems. (Among other big issues)
Yes I did ignore those issues.
Game devs certainly will.
Being a developer without using AI is becoming untenable. That's the reality that any developer will tell you. Theres posts here to that effect from career developers bemoaning the changes to the industry every day.
What do you think ideology means?
I don't do arguments in semantics.
Insane reply just admit you thought it meant something else lmao
Maybe look up a definition for me lmao
I mean sure I guess
of beliefs or principles, especially one on which a political system, party, or organization is based:
"socialist/capitalist ideology"
"The people are caught between two opposing ideologies."
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ideology
There is colloquial use of the term to refer specifically to beliefs/principles held in contrast to what evidence supports, but I don't think you can make an argument for this overriding the general meaning of the term, especially when it comes to (hopefully) educated discussion.
of course not, it will be an added burden that posters can't possibly satisfy.
this isn't an investigative community.
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