I am still picking one up as I just want a headset with good Linux support that won't spy on me. I'm coming from an OG Vive, so it should still feel like a big upgrade.
post
I'm ok with it Valve. I might not be able to pick one up right now but it doesn't mean I'm not interested. Just please don't give up on FEX-EMU. That to me is the true value proposition of all this.
ARM is arguably more closed source than x86. Most ARM computers violate the Linux GPL license and run a closed-source fork of Linux.
FEX is cool, but I'll wait until RISC-V becomes viable before I switch away from x86.
I'm more excited about the waydroid integration, I want to run android TV apps on my Steam Machine.
I'd say ARM makes sense for headsets for now because of the Oculus headsets, but I wouldnt be surprised if the Steam Frame 2 ran on x86.
I wouldnt be surprised if the Steam Frame 2 ran on x86.
Chance is higher that Steam DECK 2 will be ARM/Snapdragon. So far nobody seems to capitalize on the fact that x64 ran out of patent protection this year.
Even if the base AMD64 instruction set is out of patent, there's been a steady trickle of ISA extensions over the years, and enough software expects some of them to be present that it would really hamper the usefulness of a third-party implementation if it didn't have them.
True but emulating specific extensions is less costly than emulating everything through FEX. Basically a slimmed down version of what Transmeta tried all those years ago. Especially Nvidia would be big enough to also come up with their own extensions.
Not saying that this will happen, just that there are feasible ways for competitors
If you're going to emulate them, it has to be at the software level instead of part of the CPU (otherwise you'd effectively just have implemented the instruction, but stupidly, and still fall foul of any intellectual property issues), so you need to run custom code when an unimplemented instruction is decoded (that's easy - you can just trap on an invalid opcode), but also need to tell software that might try to use them that you support those extensions (plenty of software checks the CPUID on startup and just errors out if required extensions aren't reported). That's harder to do. You could:
- run all user software with a debugger attached, single-stepping it and intervening when the CPUID instruction appears. This would be really slow as you'd have to context switch to run some debugger code after every instruction.
- run all user software on an emulated machine, in which case it doesn't matter what your real architecture is (although having a compatible memory model helps avoid loads of locks).
- run all user software on a virtual machine, which requires virtualisation extensions, which came later than AMD64.
I'm old enough to remember Transmeta processors. I know what they did.
And it was functionally the second bullet point, with all instructions being emulated, so the emulation software was what the CPU really ran. You can do emulation of a CPU on a compatible CPU, but it doesn't generally end up faster than doing it on an unrelated CPU. E.g. the code you're emulating will use all the registers the CPU has, so you have to maintain a mapping from emulated registers to real registers (and because you need some registers for the emulator, some emulated registers necessarily must spill to memory), and the code you're emulating could use any part of the address space, so you've got to map from the emulated address space to the real one. Every instruction potentially needs some alteration, so you can't just run them as-is. There can be time savings, e.g. x86 has all aligned writes under 64-bits be atomic, so on unmodifed Arm, you need to insert extra locks, and if x87 instructions are used, they don't quite conform to IEEE754, so would need doing via many integer instructions instead of a single float instruction on non-x86 platforms, but there can also be time savings from using a different architecture, e.g. Transmeta's CPUs had way more registers than x86, so could give all emulated registers a real register and still have enough for the emulator itself to use.
It's hard to look at the new Intel Panther Lake processors and see that the advantages of ARM outweigh the disadvantages. Look at the new Intel handhelds, they just operate on a whole new level of efficiency.
I have yet to be aware of any Intel Arc G3 handheld that manages to come down to the 540g in weight of a Switch 2 console. The Acer Atlas 7 has a smaller screen and yet weighs a bit under 700g, so 150g more while it has a smaller screen.
No but they're also far more powerful than a Switch.
You claimed that the Intels are more EFFICIENT than ARM processors, so the devices need to be lighter and faster but so far I'm not aware of any x86 handheld that manages that.
I'd totally be in favor of that happening. Device Tree is a clusterfuck and as long as the cast majority of consumer ARM devices don't support the SystemReady specification, x86 is more flexible but that's not the point you were arguing.
Processor start-ups need to make their own x64 processors now that the patents are no longer valid.
You claimed that the Intels are more EFFICIENT than ARM processors, so the devices need to be lighter and faster
That's not correct. For one, I did not say they were more efficient. For another they can be similarly efficient and also larger and heavier, because they're more powerful.
That’s not correct. For one, I did not say they were more efficient.
"Look at the new Intel handhelds, they just operate on a whole new level of efficiency."
So the "whole new level of efficiency" isn't better efficiency, it's worse efficiency and the need for bigger batteries. Got it!
You are misunderstanding me because you're not paying attention to your own words . "A new level of efficiency" is not the same as "more efficient than ARM processors". It really just seems like you're just more interested in "being right" and being a dick in general than any sort of good faith discussion so I'm gonna cut my losses and block you. Goodbye.
The rumors seem to say it will be another AMD chip.
At the moment, there is no ARM SoC that is as efficient at idle as Intel's Panther Lake, so I dont know why Valve would tie themselves down with Qualcomm and have bad Linux support and shitty BIOS.
That's just wholly incorrect.
Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5? No, you have to use the manufacturer's closed source OS (forked from Linux). Some manufacturers release their source code, but a lot of them don't.
Here's a blog explaining how you can't run vanilla Linux on a raspberry pi and the extremely complicated way to use the open source raspi code to compile your own kernel:
Yes, I can. Manufacturers literally CAN NOT closed-source fork the kernel, because of its licensing. They HAVE to release the exact kernel sources used for the device.
You can also run fully open Linux on your Pi5. There will be some firmware blobs, but then again so will any x86 board.
Oh, and smartphones run ANDROID. Not just Linux, but a completely separate layer on top of it that is much different from the traditional desktop environments. Android isn't Linux, it runs on top of the Linux kernel. Sure manufacturers don't release their Android source, because they don't have to, but equating Android with Linux is idiotic.
You seem to have a very... loose grasp as to what is considered open source and what "Linux" is.
Here's a quick bootcamp: any fork of the Linux kernel is still Linux. Does the RasPi5 require a custom kernel? Yes. Does that make it any less open? No. Does that make it any less Linux? Also no.
The kernel sources for Raspberry Pi boards are readily available. No request for access needed. You can clone the repo any time. That is open source.
Samsung, Google, Motorola, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Nothing, etc. all either provide open repos for kernel sources, or provide them upon request (as per the GPLv2 license of the kernel). That's still open source. And just because each phone manufacturer - as well as each SoC manufacturer - had to make changes that aren't in mainline, doesn't make that any less open or any less Linux.
In fact Google has been pioneering a way to get better kernel baseline support via GKIs, and manufacturer support for a lot of boards and SoCs have been introduced in the mainline kernel.
But the thing is that ARM is progressing fast, with quite a few SoC/core manufacturers on the market (Qualcomm, Apple, Samsung, HiSilicon/Huawei, MediaTek, Amlogic, Allwinner, Broadcom, Rockchip, NXP, UNISOC, and so on), whereas X86 has two manufacturers who do end to end development in-house, and at a slower pace (usually one class of CPUs announced a year). The thing is, mainline WILL pay behind because ARM just progresses so fast that reviewing all the changes to add a new SoC to the supported list cannot happen overnight. That's why forks exist.
But, I repeat, that fork makes it no less Linux nor any less open source.
Manufacturers literally CAN NOT closed-source fork the kernel, because of its licensing. They HAVE to release the exact kernel sources used for the device.
Legally aren't allowed to, may not care anyway. Chinese legal system doesn't enforce this.
The big ones obey, because they have international presence. From what I've heard, the small ones will provide it on request, since chances are they have no financial reason not to anyway.
Yep.
A decade or so ago it used to be that GPL source requests/demands were an uphill battle. You had to beg, threaten legal action, for months to get somewhere.
Nowadays most manufacturers recognise that open sourcing actually helps them because people will create custom ROMs, or do the kernel upbring for newer versions the ODM refused to, so now with 0 work you have a new BSP and can push updates faster.
Yes and the small, shitty ones that only sell on AliExpress don't and because Device Tree is a terrible concept, you still need to get distributions with explicit adaptations to each specific device.
Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5?
Wtf? The vast majority of phones do run Linux, and most of the rest (iPhones) run UNIX. And since when is raspberry pi 5 not Linux?
They run android, it's not the same.
Lots of distros “aren’t the same”, but android runs the Linux kernel at its core.
Whether you like it or not, it’s Linux
Someone is making a real fool of themselves here, amirite?
I'm taking a very narrow definition of Linux here to say that a manufacturer shipping you a disk image with a precompiled version of Linux (that is closed source) is not proper linux.
If Linus Torvalds and co can't make your computer run, then its not a good computing experience.
Darwin != Linux, either.
I can absolutely build the Linux kernel for arm from source for the raspberry pi. Whether it is using the open source raspberry pi fork or mainline. I can put any of at least a dozen fully open distros on it. Etc.
Maybe there's some devices/manufacturers doing this and that's what you're thinking of, but your core argument here is 100% wrong.
some devices = virtually every android phone.

Also, Android is linux, lol. Just because some phone models don’t allow you the freedom to build-from-source doesn’t change any of that.
The goalposts were that x86 is more open source friendly than ARM
I would probably me more inclined to listen to anything you say if you also acknowledged your mistakes
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just tired of people simping for ARM like its better than x86. Apple and Qualcomm are not going to make gaming better!
Ok but it's weird that you aren't acknowledging the things you were fundamentally wrong about, and were making a really big deal about
Not sure how you can draw conclusions like that with big misunderstandings
but I dont understand how calling raspbian a fork of Linux is incorrect. I can't run mainline Linux on an android phone, I need to run something based on Linux that isn't from Linus Torvalds, the owner of the Linux trademark.
Rasbian is not a fork of "Linux". It is a distro that contains lots and lots and lots of open software. Including Linux. Just like Ubuntu and Alpine and Debian and Rocky and Neon and hundreds of other distros do.
That distro is fully open .
It includes an open, non-closed version of the Linux kernel.
You can, and people absolutely do, use Linux from the Linux foundation, on tons of ARM hardware, including Raspberry Pis and other ARM-based general purpose computers
Can I run desktop Ubuntu on my Motorola phone? No. But I can't run it on a Kankun smart plug either, and that runs Linux. Ubuntu wasn't designed to run on this hardware (though they did work a LOT on specific phone and tablet support). I also can't run it on a Milk-V Duo, but it is Risc-V and runs "Linux".
Do many phone manufacturers do other things to lock down phones? Yes, but that has nothing to do with being ARM-based. And I was responding specifically to the ARM claims.
Go to github.com/torvalds/linux
click "fork"
You now have a fork of Linux.
You're probably allowed by the trademark holder to still call it Linux, but its not associated with the official Linux kernel project.
The problem with ARM is that all of the hardware manufacturers lock down their hardware or othwise make it difficult to use with mainline Linux. That was all I was saying. I wouldn't want to game on a MilkV Duo either.
By that measure there are very very few Linux systems running Linux. Most distros ship their own slightly customized fork.
All of the [ARM] hardware manufacturers make it difficult to use with mainline Linux
No, they do not all do that
And it has nothing to do with ARM vs x86 or Risc-V which was your original core point
Darwin is UNIX. And anyone who knows what they’re talking about wouldn’t confuse the two.
lol
the person I replied to mentioned Unix for some reason
Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5?
Yes and yes. In fact, I currently do both of those.
OK cool, how much is broken when you use a mainline kernel, like the one I use on a normal x86 laptop?
Nothing. Also, why do you keep changing the requirements? First it was "you can't run Linux", then it became "you can't run a mainline kernel".
Yes and also yes. What???
Your phone runs mainline Linux? You dont need to download a closed source binary blob from the vendor?
Does your phone show up on this list?
https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
Notice how I dont have to ask this question if somebody owns a normal x86 computer.
Yes, you do have to ask that question, dummy.
Just look at every single newer generation x86 CPU. Until direct support is added in the kernel (which usually happens early on because Intel and AMD use a singular architecture for each generation so support is easy), shit's so broken it won't even boot.
You don't need to download a closed source binary blob from the vendor
Except, you know, the CPU microcode package, the GPU drivers, the WiFi, Bluetooth, etc. firmware (via the linux-firmware package), and the list goes on.
Buddy, we've already established that your knowledge of Linux et al is surface level at best, why are you still digging your own grave with verificably incorrect/incomplete statements that literally move the goalposts of this debate every time you reply?
the goalposts were that x86 is more open source friendly than ARM. Intel and AND work on mainline Linux because they actually submit their patches to mainline and make sure that they get accepted. Sure, there's firmware, but the code to use that firmware is open source and widely used. The worst you see is maybe SoC drivers for webcams.
Compare that to ARM, where the majority of vendors dont provide source code for their kernels, and when they do boot with mainline Linux, half the shit is broken because of device trees or undocumented peripherals.
I wouldn't want to buy an ARM computer.
Troll harder bud.
Yes, I am running PostmarketOS on my cellphone. It is called PinePhone.
Even DietPi where you can install it to pretty much everything? Even x86. Even armv6.
ARM is arguably more closed source than x86. Most ARM computers violate the Linux GPL license and run a closed-source fork of Linux.
Honey, you can even run Asahi Linux (fully FOSS) on Apple Silicon. WTF are you taking about?
First of all, ARM is not owned by Apple, and if it weren’t so open, so open source friendly, Apple would not have been able to create Apple Silicon chips in the first place.
Secondly, lol, Asahi Linux proved that, not only could apple’s apple silicon chips be reversed engineered, but that it was both a worthwhile enterprise and that Apple wouldn’t come after them. Because Apple officially stated that they just do not care. Apple intentionally designed the chips to be capable of booting and running alternate operating systems. They, themselves, created a very clear and open development pathway.
Oh, not to mention that it is definitely Linux.
So… That’s what the fuck I’m talking about. Again, what the fuck are you talking about?
Not for a lack of Apple trying to lock it down.
Asahi Linux does not work on the latest macs, and most of the features on M1/M2 do not work.
You dont have these issues with x86, because it is more open source than ARM. AMD and Intel treat Linux as a first-class citizen and upload code for their computers directly to Mainline Linux.
Literally, none of these things is true.
If you spent as much time on research, as you apparently do one making shit up, you would know that.
If you're so confident, show a source
Have you heard of GitHub?
Take a look through there 💋💋💋

https://www.gnustep.org/resources/OpenStepSpec/OpenStepSpec.html
https://distrowatch.com/table-mobile.php?distribution=opensolaris
I wonder what that price was. According to https://pcpartpicker.com/trends/ 16GB RAM seems to be up by about $100 to $150, 256GB SSDs are up by about $75 to $100. So probably the price they were at last year was around $849
All semiconductors are up because the same fabs make it all.
Further, hardware producers are likely starting to look at the "new normal" of ever-increasing prices as a reason to be extra conservative on pricing, because pricing for this moment sets them up to have to increase the price if costs continue to rise, turning customers off even more.
I suspect it was $500-600.
They didn't commit to anything beyond "below Index" when they first talked about it. My guess is also around $800. It's not an insignificant amount of engineering. They also hint at having made additional hardware tradeoffs due to RAM price explosions, so they would've been spending more elsewhere (probably on the display)
I'll get one, eventually, but it's a big purchase. It'll probably be a next year sort of deal. I kind of figured the original price was around $750 for the entry level version, they would have probably had a 512 version but that would create a problem of segmentation of already expensive hardware. Thanks by the way, Sam Altman. Why don't you go hump a black marker won't ya?
Yeah. This sucks.
I was hoping for a new generation of hardware but I do t feel like it’s worth it at current prices.
It feels like a large expense for a step sideways.
I'm going to have a bit of a hot take, judging by the comments here. $1k is exactly what I expected when they made the announcement that it was in development, and it's what I put aside for it. Would it be nice if it cost less? Of course it would. However, $1K is what the Index cost, and I would consider the Frame to be a substantial upgrade as a solid, daily driver headset.
As an HTC Vive adopter, ordering an ergo kit sounds par for the course for VR. You usually don't need one unless you plan on playing for 4+ hours, so I expect the Frame will feel similar in that regard. Since I like flight sims, I plan to get the head strap or fabricate one.
As for people complaining "it only has one game", you clearly haven't been paying attention on Steam. There is a massive library of dedicated VR games, as well as a plethora of "pancake" games with VR support. Most games on the Meta store are also on Steam, as well.
My go-to games are Hotdogs, Horseshoes, and Handgrenades; Elite: Dangerous, DCS, Derail Valley, Pavlov, TribeXR, Beat Saber, Pistol Whip, SUPERHOT, Assetto Corsa, Battle Zone Gold, and a VR mod for MechWarrior 5. I'm planning to get some QoL mods for Skyrim VR and Fallout 4 VR and giving those a run.
Are you excited for H3VR2?
People don't have a spare thousand dollars... They just don't.
A lot of people do have that. There are those who do and are willing to pay out the nose for tech toys to dull the pain.
I mean just look at the current sale of GPU's.
Yes, that's why they're having to limit purchases to make sure the scalpers don't get them all
It's not that prices are too high, it's that wages are too low.
Here's a two things that will greatly improve this situation, unions forcing higher wages, and taxing the filthy rich till they're no longer billionaires.
When prices go up and wages remain the same, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
I mean, it's both, right?
We all agree wages suck shit, but my company bought 64GB of RAM for our laptops last year for about $200 each, and right now that same stuff is, what, $900?
Both things can be true at once.
I'm still haunted when RAM was at all time lows in recent history and I didn't stock up. Figured I'd do it when I did a full upgrade a year later.
😭
I recommended a laptop to someone a few days ago only to discover its price had LITERALLY DOUBLED since last year:


Had to buy RAM for my work machine a few days ago, 600€ for 32GB. Shit hurts, man.
Have you not been paying attention to the semi-conductor and memory market? Prices are absolutely too high due to AI at this point and is part of the issue of why this and every other thing that uses a electronics is expensive as all heck. There's a reason why my 64 GB of ram I bought for 110 dollars is now 500 bucks.
Wages and taxes are a whole other topic that while also true, is a whole other discussion outside of the release price of a VR headset.
Just to play devil's advocate, everything is politics. If wages were higher, if multi-millionaires didn't exist, if you owned your home and had a larger say in your communities laws and regulations, if your anti-trust agency was doing their job, if you owned a part of your work the AI bubble would look wildly different if not be impossible in its current form. We're seeing the effects of wild wealth concentration and financial markets detached from their underlying financial output.
I know that they had to release it, after all the R&D, but the way they did is just bad. Having to pay for the charger separately. Having to pay the comfort pack separately. Receiving only 1 game, which is a 6 year old game that cost £13, currently. Having no color pass-through, without paying extra. Why would anybody go out and buy this, if they haven't bought already a VR headset. Yes privacy is nice, but there are others that also do it and cheaper (especially second hand). Especially knowing this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiadamborsky/2026/05/05/inside-leviathan-why-gabe-newells-new-yacht-is-a-total-game-changer/
No one likes the current market conditions, but if they included all the things you are asking for it would have started at $1300 and everyone would be even more upset.
Agreed with the current market, obligatory fuck AI and fuck Trump, but there is a small, small point about the charger. That would not have broken any bank to have included that along with the controller straps. Even the Index came with controller straps.
I with you on the straps, but personally I'm glad that I'm not forced to buy a power adapter I don't need.
Agreed. Controller straps are cheap. And I already have 3 Steam Deck charging blocks: one for the OLED, one for the Deck Dock, and another for the LCD. I don't need a fourth. Presumably the Frame is compatible with those already, and the extra-long cable from the OLED block is long enough for seated VR to work while plugged in anyway.
Not that I can afford a new VR headset in a year that multi-nozzle 3D printers are becoming widely available at affordable prices, but I digress...
top 100 comments