t's certainly been a journey for Valve. A week prior to the Steam Frame's launch, we spoke with two engineers at Valve about the project: Joy Lyons, hardware engineer, and Jeremy Selan, software engineer. The memory crisis and the price were a big part of that conversation. From that chat, we can confirm that Valve had aimed for a lower price point than the one it's launching the Frame for today.

Here's Lyons on the memory crisis:

"We set out to design this hardware with one particular price in mind, but we've made choices to make sure that we're making a product that is choiceful, that people can purchase, they can upgrade with different features later. But we wanted to make sure we had a base product with really great performance. Then that price target shifted due to the ongoing RAM crisis around the world."

Lyons also said that forecasting for the cost of certain components used in the Steam Frame is an ongoing challenge.

Not exactly boding well of the Steam Deck 2.

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[+] -24 points 1 month ago (45 children)

Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5? No, you have to use the manufacturer's closed source OS (forked from Linux). Some manufacturers release their source code, but a lot of them don't.

Here's a blog explaining how you can't run vanilla Linux on a raspberry pi and the extremely complicated way to use the open source raspi code to compile your own kernel:

https://blog.bktus.com/en/archives/czh2is/

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  • [–] 41 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Yes, I can. Manufacturers literally CAN NOT closed-source fork the kernel, because of its licensing. They HAVE to release the exact kernel sources used for the device.

    You can also run fully open Linux on your Pi5. There will be some firmware blobs, but then again so will any x86 board.

    Oh, and smartphones run ANDROID. Not just Linux, but a completely separate layer on top of it that is much different from the traditional desktop environments. Android isn't Linux, it runs on top of the Linux kernel. Sure manufacturers don't release their Android source, because they don't have to, but equating Android with Linux is idiotic.

    You seem to have a very... loose grasp as to what is considered open source and what "Linux" is.

    Here's a quick bootcamp: any fork of the Linux kernel is still Linux. Does the RasPi5 require a custom kernel? Yes. Does that make it any less open? No. Does that make it any less Linux? Also no.

    The kernel sources for Raspberry Pi boards are readily available. No request for access needed. You can clone the repo any time. That is open source.

    Samsung, Google, Motorola, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Nothing, etc. all either provide open repos for kernel sources, or provide them upon request (as per the GPLv2 license of the kernel). That's still open source. And just because each phone manufacturer - as well as each SoC manufacturer - had to make changes that aren't in mainline, doesn't make that any less open or any less Linux.

    In fact Google has been pioneering a way to get better kernel baseline support via GKIs, and manufacturer support for a lot of boards and SoCs have been introduced in the mainline kernel.

    But the thing is that ARM is progressing fast, with quite a few SoC/core manufacturers on the market (Qualcomm, Apple, Samsung, HiSilicon/Huawei, MediaTek, Amlogic, Allwinner, Broadcom, Rockchip, NXP, UNISOC, and so on), whereas X86 has two manufacturers who do end to end development in-house, and at a slower pace (usually one class of CPUs announced a year). The thing is, mainline WILL pay behind because ARM just progresses so fast that reviewing all the changes to add a new SoC to the supported list cannot happen overnight. That's why forks exist.

    But, I repeat, that fork makes it no less Linux nor any less open source.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Manufacturers literally CAN NOT closed-source fork the kernel, because of its licensing. They HAVE to release the exact kernel sources used for the device.

    Legally aren't allowed to, may not care anyway. Chinese legal system doesn't enforce this.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    The big ones obey, because they have international presence. From what I've heard, the small ones will provide it on request, since chances are they have no financial reason not to anyway.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    Yep.

    A decade or so ago it used to be that GPL source requests/demands were an uphill battle. You had to beg, threaten legal action, for months to get somewhere.

    Nowadays most manufacturers recognise that open sourcing actually helps them because people will create custom ROMs, or do the kernel upbring for newer versions the ODM refused to, so now with 0 work you have a new BSP and can push updates faster.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yes and the small, shitty ones that only sell on AliExpress don't and because Device Tree is a terrible concept, you still need to get distributions with explicit adaptations to each specific device.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (24 children)

    Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5?

    Wtf? The vast majority of phones do run Linux, and most of the rest (iPhones) run UNIX. And since when is raspberry pi 5 not Linux?

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  • [+] -3 points 1 month ago (5 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    They run android, it's not the same.

    Lots of distros “aren’t the same”, but android runs the Linux kernel at its core.

    Whether you like it or not, it’s Linux

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  • [+] -10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (17 children)

    I'm taking a very narrow definition of Linux here to say that a manufacturer shipping you a disk image with a precompiled version of Linux (that is closed source) is not proper linux.

    If Linus Torvalds and co can't make your computer run, then its not a good computing experience.

    Darwin != Linux, either.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    I can absolutely build the Linux kernel for arm from source for the raspberry pi. Whether it is using the open source raspberry pi fork or mainline. I can put any of at least a dozen fully open distros on it. Etc.

    Maybe there's some devices/manufacturers doing this and that's what you're thinking of, but your core argument here is 100% wrong.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    some devices = virtually every android phone.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Also, Android is linux, lol. Just because some phone models don’t allow you the freedom to build-from-source doesn’t change any of that.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The goalposts were that x86 is more open source friendly than ARM

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Ahahahahahah! No, no no no. None of that is true. Nor has it ever been true

    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    Have you ever tried stand-up comedy? I think you might be quite good at it— in the Trump-idiot garbage bin circuit

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    I would probably me more inclined to listen to anything you say if you also acknowledged your mistakes

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago* (6 children)

    I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just tired of people simping for ARM like its better than x86. Apple and Qualcomm are not going to make gaming better!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Ok but it's weird that you aren't acknowledging the things you were fundamentally wrong about, and were making a really big deal about

    Not sure how you can draw conclusions like that with big misunderstandings

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    but I dont understand how calling raspbian a fork of Linux is incorrect. I can't run mainline Linux on an android phone, I need to run something based on Linux that isn't from Linus Torvalds, the owner of the Linux trademark.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Rasbian is not a fork of "Linux". It is a distro that contains lots and lots and lots of open software. Including Linux. Just like Ubuntu and Alpine and Debian and Rocky and Neon and hundreds of other distros do.

    That distro is fully open .

    It includes an open, non-closed version of the Linux kernel.

    You can, and people absolutely do, use Linux from the Linux foundation, on tons of ARM hardware, including Raspberry Pis and other ARM-based general purpose computers

    Can I run desktop Ubuntu on my Motorola phone? No. But I can't run it on a Kankun smart plug either, and that runs Linux. Ubuntu wasn't designed to run on this hardware (though they did work a LOT on specific phone and tablet support). I also can't run it on a Milk-V Duo, but it is Risc-V and runs "Linux".

    Do many phone manufacturers do other things to lock down phones? Yes, but that has nothing to do with being ARM-based. And I was responding specifically to the ARM claims.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Go to github.com/torvalds/linux

    click "fork"

    You now have a fork of Linux.

    You're probably allowed by the trademark holder to still call it Linux, but its not associated with the official Linux kernel project.

    The problem with ARM is that all of the hardware manufacturers lock down their hardware or othwise make it difficult to use with mainline Linux. That was all I was saying. I wouldn't want to game on a MilkV Duo either.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    By that measure there are very very few Linux systems running Linux. Most distros ship their own slightly customized fork.

    All of the [ARM] hardware manufacturers make it difficult to use with mainline Linux

    No, they do not all do that

    And it has nothing to do with ARM vs x86 or Risc-V which was your original core point

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Darwin is UNIX. And anyone who knows what they’re talking about wouldn’t confuse the two.

    lol

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    the person I replied to mentioned Unix for some reason

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (5 children)
  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Your phone runs mainline Linux? You dont need to download a closed source binary blob from the vendor?

    Does your phone show up on this list?

    https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

    Notice how I dont have to ask this question if somebody owns a normal x86 computer.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yes, you do have to ask that question, dummy.

    Just look at every single newer generation x86 CPU. Until direct support is added in the kernel (which usually happens early on because Intel and AMD use a singular architecture for each generation so support is easy), shit's so broken it won't even boot.

    You don't need to download a closed source binary blob from the vendor

    Except, you know, the CPU microcode package, the GPU drivers, the WiFi, Bluetooth, etc. firmware (via the linux-firmware package), and the list goes on.

    Buddy, we've already established that your knowledge of Linux et al is surface level at best, why are you still digging your own grave with verificably incorrect/incomplete statements that literally move the goalposts of this debate every time you reply?

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  • the goalposts were that x86 is more open source friendly than ARM. Intel and AND work on mainline Linux because they actually submit their patches to mainline and make sure that they get accepted. Sure, there's firmware, but the code to use that firmware is open source and widely used. The worst you see is maybe SoC drivers for webcams.

    Compare that to ARM, where the majority of vendors dont provide source code for their kernels, and when they do boot with mainline Linux, half the shit is broken because of device trees or undocumented peripherals.

    I wouldn't want to buy an ARM computer.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Can you run Linux on your cellphone, can you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi 5?

    Yes and yes. In fact, I currently do both of those.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    OK cool, how much is broken when you use a mainline kernel, like the one I use on a normal x86 laptop?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    Nothing. Also, why do you keep changing the requirements? First it was "you can't run Linux", then it became "you can't run a mainline kernel".

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