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[–] 96 points 1 month ago* (36 children)

I know that it's mostly a joke, yet it is worth mentioning that those valuable spices were exclusively used by the rich and wealthy. Ordinary people and their food did not benefit from the spice trade at all. If you delve a little bit into culinary history and find out what the aristocrats did with (for example) extremely rare and precious nutmeg the British Empire fought wars over, you want to dig up their bones, revive them, just so that you can kill them again.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago*

    The limies weren't even that big into the spice trade, it was the dutch. You mention nutmeg, nutmeg and cloves came from a certain string of small indonesian islands only. There were some english traders there, when the dutch were trying to monopolize the trade.

    The dutch sent a delegation, that angered the natives that killed them. The dutch came back and exterminated the natives. Killed every single one of them, and the english and other traders there.

    Edit: Adaman islands if memory serves, fuzzy on the years no time to look up.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You're somewhat correct but also not.

    The spice scarcity and making do without is a result of two world wars ravaging a somewhat isolated island nation. See e.g. the Irish potato famine. Some were misfortunate enough to have no food at all - and many had to live with bland, rationed food items.

    Those decades were formative and a lot of that stuck around.

    And to be perfectly honest... I kinda like it. I like spiced (spicy in the flavourful, not the hot sense) food too, but there's some beauty in putting together a dish of meat and potatoes where you let the flavour of the meat and potatoes come through. In some sense it's actually similar to Japanese cuisine, specifically sushi, where the focus is on the fish itself, with minor added flavours (salt from soy sauce, heat from wasabi).

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    I think the two things we mentioned are not only not excluding each other, but rather cumulative: Spices were not common before the wars and the wars further increased their scarcity for most people, essentially preventing them from becoming part of the popular cuisine in a time period when other European nations became increasingly accustomed to using them.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    wow i dont have time to research what they did. tell me what did they do?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    They ate it, mostly as a status symbol. They'd carry it around with a small silver grinder to add it to their food. I'm not sure what was so bad about that, other than adding something worth a laborer's salary for a year on your food. Also, it contains myristicin which if one consumes enough in one sitting can sort of give a high - a really bad one with hallucinations that go in for 48h - don't try it, it can make you very sick.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    I mean, that's true, but hasn't been the case for at least a century, so why do they still eat like the aristocrats are hoarding all the spices?

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    WW2 rationing really messed up their culinary scene

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Sure, but that ended in the 50s. They can no longer reasonably use that excuse.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The real problem in my view is that people don't recognise post-imperial fusion cusines as 'legit' British food even though the curry house is the definition of an Anglo-Indian institution. When people in Britain claim the tikka masala it's not being twee or politically correct, rather it's earnestly considering an immigration-originated fusion cusine as part of the wider national one.

    Also even pre-20th century British food isn't exactly bad, I'd argue it doesn't travel amazingly in many cases but a Sunday roast in our climate is sheer perfection. Too many people expect France or Italy from a country with nothing like their climate.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago*

    a Sunday roast in our climate is sheer perfection

    i've got some amazing roast recipes, but they're "english" or "american" cuisine so bleh. but godsdamn are they tasty when they're done right.

    also, y'all have enough immigrants from the larger empire that claiming anglo-indian cuisine isn't british cuisine just kind of feels racist (which is parallel to your point). how long do you have to live there before you're british? I like the french approach. five minutes.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    It's a bit like more traditional Anglo and Celtic American foods in that respect, lots of simple shit that tastes good by itself but is generally considered basic or has had certain context stripped with time. A good example is meatloaf which in some reasons was basically whatever meat and possibly eggs you had lying around after a bit thrown together in an loaf. But then you get shit like cheese curds and it's just deep fried cheese and it's great.

    Also you can end up with something like my ancestoral food traditions where it's just soup, cooked meats, and weird increasingly modified trail foods. The trail foods also happen to still be cheap even with modifications, though I guess rice and chili ain't exactly that complex.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    WW2 rationing really messed up their culinary scene

    What? That doesn't make sense. Even if it was a decade of rationing, that wouldn't completely wipe out and replace a culture's cuisine. Just look at all the other countries that had rationing during ww2 and other wars, and their food is still flavorful.

    Also this isn't ancient history stuff, if what you said was true then we'd see that British cuisine was radically better before ww2, but it's not the case

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    It's a real effect. Wikipedia has a whole section about it in their British cuisine article. A combination of rationing continuing well after the war ended (until 1954), agricultural issues, and a bunch of other stuff put Britain in a position where even after rationing ended, the effects stayed on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_cuisine

    It's not the only reason British food has a bad reputation, but it's part of it.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    i mean, that is one effect. there's also the fact we have way better refrigerated transport nowadays so what we view as food deserts now, that was just average. a lot of the fruit and veg came canned 70 years ago if you weren't next to a place that grew it. those awful fruit cocktail in syrup things were damn good back then

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    We don't. It's a bit.

    The part people forget is that we didn't just take the spices, we took the whole cuisine and the people who could cook it.

    The general British public has been eating a multicultural diet for a very, very long time. So when you see bangers and mash, rather than wonder why it isn't spiced, consider that we're just being retro and tomorrow we'll have Indian and the next day Chinese and....

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  • [+] -9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (8 children)

    What you call Chinese comes with fries and gravy, man.

    Edit:🤣🤣🤣 must've hit too close to the mark to piss you guys off so much that you go through and downvote every comment I've made.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Apparently you really offended all the people who do get chips and curry sauce from the Chinese. Which always felt a bit sacrilegious to me, like these places are known for amazing rice and noodles so let's get fried potato which we can get at basically any other food place in the UK.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Gravy is something Americans put on everything.

    And even in Belgium, we don't get fries with our Chinese food.

    So sounds like you are projecting.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Americans absolutely do not put gravy on everything. Thats the british and canadians.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    I remember reading that in today's money sugar used to be over £100/kg. Spices probably more. No shit regular people didn't use them much! But sugar was also considered a spice too.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    Walking down a high street in the UK. I smell loads of spices from even the shit takeaways.

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  • [+] -9 points 1 month ago (14 children)
  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    Why not? If that is the case then American cuisine is limited to corn syrup and growth hormones.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    There's more than one American cuisine. Southern, Northern Mexican (Cal-Mex, Tex-Mex, etc), New York (basically fusion of Jewish and Irish in a few things), American Chinese, etc.

    American fast food is common, but not the whole thing.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Nope, if Britain can't have anything similar to another culture then America can't have anything Irish, Jewish or Mexican either.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    or Mexican either.

    Uh 'Mexican' isn't indigenous either . . . it results from the fusion of Native American, Spanish, and French cuisines, among others.

    And there isn't a single Mexican cuisine either, there's multiple.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I've got a recipe from my Ojibwa neighbor's Grandmother for roasted grouse made with nothing more than honey, salt, and cranberries roasted in duck fat. Served with wild rice cooked with cranberries. The subtleties of the dish will blow your mind. It makes delicate Japanese dishes look like all show and no go flavor. The smokiness of the hand parched wild rice set against the tart cranberries is to die for. A meal meant for kings, (And Queens if you swing that way)!

    And she can't get enough potato klub, lefse, and lutefisk when I make those Norwegian dishes I learned from my Grandmother and Mother.

    It's like there is no accounting for food tastes.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    There are some indigenous mexican peoples still around, and with that their cuisines.

    A minority cause of all the invading and pillaging done by Europe and America, but they're still around.

    Latest census data: 11,800,247 self-identified Indigenous Mexicans (9.36% of the total population of Mexico)

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The rest of the world thinks that Britain doesn't use spices, what we don't know is that for some reason, we seem to use them in our confectionery.

    We really like ginger.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    The British eat so much Indian food it's crazy. There's a Nando's on damn near every corner in London.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    It’s just like how in America there is a Mexican restaurant in every small shitty town.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago*

    South African and Portuguese fusion food.

    The history is that South Africa had a lot of Portuguese immigrants during the Portuguese civil war, and that then made a whole new cuisine that's a fusion of South Africa and Portugal.

    And the owner was from that region, and brought that cuisine over to England, big hit, made a chain of it

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Everyone always forgets that Chicken Tikka Masala is a British dish and one of the most popular meals in the country

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The British claiming tikka masala is like NYC claiming pizza.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    It's quite well established that it's a British dish. Curry in general isn't, but Tikka masala is. It's like Canada claiming Pizza Hawaii.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago*

    Its not so clear cut: https://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/npr/1145119758/who-created-chicken-tikka-masala-the-death-of-a-curry-king-is-reviving-a-debate

    "It's kind of like: who invented chicken noodle soup?" says Leena Trivedi-Grenier, a freelance food writer who probed the various origin claims in 2017. "It's a dish that could've been invented by any number of people at the same time."

    "How do you colonize and enslave an entire country for a century and then claim that one of their dishes is from your own country?"

    Still possible it was created by the South Asian diaspora in Britain but there's a reason the likes of Nigel Farage want CTM "remigrated" and not so for the likes of Shephard's Pie or Yorkshire Pudding.

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  • [–] 33 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    I dated a British girl in high school. She microwave broccoli in water. No salt or seasoning. No butter. No nothing.

    She took it out, drained the water and told me her dish was done.

    That was the last time she made anything for us.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    That doesn't sound all that bad? Not everything needs to be salted. Broccoli in and of itself has a nice flavour, imo

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Sounds like me, except I would drink the broccoli water.

    Once you reset your palette, cutting out excess salt and sugar and cheap fats, and processed foods, you learn to enjoy the taste of whole foods all on their own. Salted ourselves to taste, which is far less than processed food will add.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    ...there's gotta be a healthy solution somewhere between industrially processed meals and plain microwave-boiled broccoli

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    People think Britain doesn't use spices. Read Mrs Beeton's recipes from the 1800s. It's ALL the herbs & spices - all spice, curry, chilli, cardomom, fenugreek, ginger, mace, nutmeg, pepper, saffron etc. British cooking really hasn't changed that much if you look at it in its entirety.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Sure, privately and those who have time. But the public houses aren't going to stock a full cabinet of spice, replacing a spice cabinet is spendy.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    The evidence is out there to see. Perceptions may be distorted by the hardships the UK suffered of rationing during WW2 and after. But the reality is that herbs and spices were always important and still are.

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