Full title: BREAKING: Bernie Sanders just introduced the Guaranteed Paid Vacation Act — a bill to guarantee at least two weeks of paid vacation to every full-time worker in America. Over 90 other members of Congress have already signed on to the legislation.

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[–] 127 points 3 months ago (23 children)

Two weeks or 10 days isn't enough. Push for at least 20 days like most of the world has. Also force companies to provide sick days instead of using a shared pool. You shouldn't have to sacrifice a vacation because you got sick of had to go to the doctor.

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  • [–] 77 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    (Im not American) While I agree 2 weeks is not nearly enough, isn't this also a bit "perfect is the enemy of good"? Anything is better than nothing, and 2 weeks is at least a start. Pushing to 4 weeks can be done after the 2 weeks has been achieved.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    10 is better than what we have, but don't start with what you are willing to negotiate down to. Start strong and be willing to compromise if that is what is needed. I don't think mandatory minimum days off is a controversial issue except for the ruling class.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago

    Agree. In this political climate, getting any positive change is tough. This is a good first step that would have affected me at the first two of three FT positions I've worked. It's not good enough long term imo, but it's positive and I'll celebrate the hell out of that.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I’d argue we should start taking pages out of the right’s playbook. Start with hilariously unachievable numbers to drag the Overton window towards the left, so that your actual desired number seems more reasonable in comparison.

    Basically, if you only want 14 days, start by listing 28. Then when the final bill that congress is voting on only has 14 days, you’re able to say you reached across the aisle and compromised.

    Conservatives do it all the time. They’ll use conservative talking heads and influencers to float extreme ideas, and begin normalizing them. So that the conservative lawmakers can then start introducing more tame versions of the now-normalized insane ideas. Basically, drag the Overton window towards the right, and now your extreme policies don’t appear as extreme.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    No, this is conceding ground that could be used for negotiation before they even start. He's asking for 2 weeks, negotiations happen -> maybe 1 week is achieved.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    TBH this doesn't seem like a bill that was drafted with the intent of passing. More likely this is to give Democratic challengers of Republican incumbents something easy to confront them about when they inevitably vote against this. The bill reads as reasonable to the average worker, who may be less likely to support a candidate that voted against giving them a measly 10 days off.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    It should be the other way around: if you are really sick multiple days during your vacation, you should get more vacation days because you didn't have your vacation while sick. Since becoming sick right when your vacation starts is a strong indication of being seriously overworked for a long time.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    If I get sick on vacation I get to recover my vacation days. Of course I need to prove it, so it's not always worth it or practical, but it should definitely not be the same pool.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Yeah, my employer requires FMLA paperwork for any medical absences longer than 2 days.

    Anyone who has ever had to do FLMA paperwork knows exactly how obscene that is. My doctor’s office charges for FMLA paperwork specifically because it’s such a chore. Which means that if I need to be out sick for longer than a few days, I have to pay my doctor’s office to fill the paperwork out.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    What about not having ‘sick days’ but unconditional paid medical leave if deemed necessary by your MD?

    That’s what we have, and although it can be abused (as everything) it seems the most humane and natural thing to have. You cannot know how many days you will be sick. Generally people doesn’t get sick at all!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not opposed to that. Would need to have a limited number of unverified sick days as Americans would abuse it, at least for a time. If you go to a doctor and they say it is necessary for you to be off work for 3 months, then an employer would have to respect that. There would also need to be punishment for retaliating against employees that have long sick periods.

    One compromise is businesses could be compensated by the government for sick time employees use beyond what is given by company policy. If someone has to take two weeks and they were only slotted one, the government will give a fixed amount per day that does not exceed that employee's daily wages.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The way it works in Denmark is your boss can demand a doctor's note from your doctor. They can do this no matter the circumstances, but they're required to pay for it. I've never been asked to get a doctor's note, but I have also never been untrustworthy enough for a boss to not believe when I say I'm sick.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    In Spain there is an established procedure. The doctor signing you for sick leave must work for the public healthcare system, and the cost of the procedure is zero. The communication to the employer is via electronic means, and the information provided to the company DOES NOT contain the diagnose nor the treatment, just the estimated recovery time.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    My job has separate PTO and sick hours. Only downside is the sick hours cap at 80, with 40 given each year. So I basically just take random "sick" days.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Agreed, that's insane. I get like 3 weeks just around the holidays alone. Thanksgiving week, and about two weeks from Christmas eve through new years days.

    Then unlimited vacation on top of that, from which I've already taken 4 weeks this year.

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  • [–] 55 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    Wait - so currently it is legal for employers in the US to give ZERO vacation days to employees? Jeez, what kinda shithole country is the US?

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  • [–] 21 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    They elected a 'thing' that's obviously been a con man for decades.
    A blatant racist, casino bankrupting corrupt piece of disgusting scum. Who has had nearly 30 court cases for sexual assault.
    A so called human that has numerous websites tracking their obvious lies, thousands and thousands of confirmable and easily debunked lies.
    Then there's the 30 plus felonies. The numerous court cases and fines etc, some of which involve being fined for stealing from children's charity's.
    The list goes on and on...

    But, then, get this, then they fucking elected it again. And this was after the Covid debacle, an attempted insurrection, stealing of top secret documents to sell or use in nefarious manner, AND the Epstein-tRUMP files being in everyone's faces.

    That is what the us is to me now. And for the rest of my life.
    A country so complacent/evil/stupid that they can elect one of the very worst 'humans' in living history... TWICE!

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    They elected a ‘thing’ that’s obviously been a con man for decades.

    its unrelated to current president. this been a problem for decades. clinton, bush, obama, biden, trump etc

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    So how many vacation days did the law mandate before 2016?

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I think they're saying that an electorate that stupid wouldn't have been voting for reasonable policy even before that.

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  • [–] 38 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    neat. i’m salaried and have “unlimited flex time off” which means “you're kept so busy with mismanagement of projects if you leave for two weeks you’ll screw your peers over.”

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  • [–] 34 points 3 months ago

    Always remember that when an employer says you're screwing coworkers over by taking leave that the employer was free to hire another employee to make it so the workload would be reasonable, and that you as an employee had no such ability to influence the situation. All you are doing is taking leave for your own personal health.

    ALL leave is health-related leave.

    And any company offering you "unlimited" leave is just making it known that they're the kind of company to make efforts to not have to pay you. "Unlimited leave" is a big red flag.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    Don't forget the psychological effect that it has on people that makes most people take less time off. Also the company can benefit from it by no longer having to agree to accrued time which means if the setup had people bankng time they would be paid out on it when they retire, leave, or get fired. This allows them to save all that money each person had been saving. If the company is willing to set things up like this you should always be asking how do they benefit from this change.

    It's crazy to think the majority or people working are all to young to know that at one time companies actually did try to come up with real incentives to keep its employees happy.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    My company switched to unlimited PTO about 2 months before my son was born. Prior to the change the policy for paternity leave was 2 weeks plus any vacation days you wanted to spend. I had 2 weeks at that point so was looking forward to spending a month off with my new boy and helping the Mrs recover.

    With the new policy they eliminated paternity leave and just had unlimited PTO. I had to press really hard for them to finally say to just take the month off and that they only would start to look at people who take more than 3 weeks off.

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  • [+] 31 points 3 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Contractors are difficult because they tend to be hourly, and hourly employees lose out when there is time off. My first studio would do typical 2 week shutdownns around Christmas time, but they stopped doing it because workers complained about lost pay.

    They should definitely be added. But I think getting a foot in the door is more important while we still have this current administration.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    How should this go about if I may ask? Genuinely curious to learn the terminologies behind this.

    Is it a bonus? Paid leave?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    A bit hard to say. Since there's two major types of contractors

    1. the "basically employees" contractors are ones who do everything expected of an employee but aren't granted the status of an employee. This is a "simple" matter in enforcing that they be actual employees under the law, either through courts or with a definition of duties that keep them from skirting that line (though employers will always try). Basically make the definition relatively lax so they can't do stuff like "work 38 hours a week" to avoid it.

    2. The "truly contractors" who essentially set their own hours and get paid for work provided. Basically stuff in the gig economy . These are pay as you go so I'm not sure you can enforce vacation time into this model.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    For the second, I can see it being offered by the employer -a merciful one that is- that you get paid leave. It can be also a sort of compensation if the work tasked is expected to have a crunch time toward the late stage.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Crazy that we're fighting to achieve some of the lowest time-off standards in the developed world.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    He can introduce the most sane, rational, logical bills this country has ever seen, and there's no chance of it passing until after the 2028 election at best. Even with the current progressive momentum, there simply aren't going to be enough votes to pass anything good (especially enough to overcome any virtually certain veto) unless progressives rout everybody else in both this year and the 2028 elections.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    This. Even if it manages to pass through this deeply partisan Congress, it needs to be signed by the president. If the president refuses to sign, it'd have to be sent back with a supermajority to override the veto, which is simply unthinkable today.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    My immediate thought with this is that is to force the opponents to vote against it, so that it becomes another example to use as an argument for voting in people that aren't against any progress.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    "Rise in the number of part time employees surges as employers exploit this one loophole."

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    The jobs that are easy to part time to avoid benefits are already doing so. This doesn't really move the needle on that.

    Though, it would be a good thing to address that at some point.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Didn't this already happen under Obamacare?

    A bunch of service sector employers tried to schedule their staff at under 32 hours while still squeezing them for 40+ hours of work. Everyone hated the system, because it continued to leave the onus of health care on individual employers, while private premiums climbed. And then the courts + Trump Admin defanged any effective enforcement.

    What a great system. So glad we weren't simply covering everyone with Medicaid by default.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    It's again and again baffling how backwards the US are. We've had four weeks minimum since before I was born, and I'm an ageing millennial

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    Yep. Almost everywhere already has this. We even get long service leave here in Australia

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    I don't understand why the US hasn't got powerful unions to defend workers rights. Don't people organise themselves!?

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

    And of course businesses regularly lobbying against unions as well as any form of regulation they can along with media outlets controlled by the ultra wealthy serving as their propaganda outlets against unions, among other things.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    There is a long and storied history behind this if you actually are interested in learning why

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Someone earlier informed me about the Taft–Hartley Act, which i had no idea about.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Check out the film Matawan. Based on real events in West Virginia. And that was just one event, and I believe the beginning of years of bloody clashes.

    There were essentially wars fought within this country between unions and union-busting agencies (often backed by the US government) like the Pinkertons and Baldwin Felts.

    Check out The Battle of Blair Mountain, it's wild stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

    It's a real shame to see what states like West Virginia have become. Their union forebearers would be rolling in their graves to see what they've become. It's shameful.

    More info:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence_in_the_United_States

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Probably worth mentioning that many of the countries with 20 days paid vacation have 20 business days of paid vacation, which in practice works out to four weeks. Countries that have a multiple of seven are probably going by calendar day which is essentially the same.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    I have 24 days Paid Leaves here in Bulgaria. The thing is: if you do not take them all over the calendar year, they roll over to the next year, but by law the company must keep the cash on hand to pay them out. I was regularly starting the year with over 20 accrued days. And so were several 100s of colleagues. This has gotten so bad and froze so much cash that the company is now giving an extra 2 days if you use all your days before the end of the year. Sweet deal!

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (7 children)

    I think this is stupid. We need the bill to be way more aggressive, ambitious, and inclusive.

    Here's what needs to be happen for this bill to bring meaningful change:

    1. Increase the guaranteed paid leave time to at least 20 workdays. Having just 10 workdays off is a joke, we need to raise our standards to match the rest of the developed world.
    2. Expand the coverage to include part time workers and contractors. I think it's fine if part employees get slightly less guaranteed time (like 2/3 of what full timers get) and contractors get more nuanced rules, but they need to be included. If they're not then that just opens a loophole for corporations to continue not giving people the vacation time they deserve
    3. Include paid sick time in the bill, and explicitly separate it from vacation time. These are not the same thing and should draw from the same pool. Guarantee all employees get a least 5 workdays of sick leave that can be expanded up to 10 workdays if the employee provides a doctor's note.
    4. Add paid sick leave that is NOT paid sick time. The Federal government needs to follow the Massachusetts model where workers are eligible to take up to 20 weeks of paid medical leave for their own serious health condition, up to 12 weeks of paid family leave to care for a relative, or a combined maximum of 26 weeks per benefit year.
    5. Just like MA, this money doesn't come from the employers but from the government. That means the federal government needs to create a department in every state that processes these claims and pays people properly when they need to take time off to ensure that the benefits are guaranteed.
    6. Require companies to give at least 10 workdays of paid bereavement leave. Employees should be eligible to get this benefit any time a spouse or close relative passes away (parents, children, and siblings).
    7. Make all 11 federal holidays (technically 12 with Inauguration Day, but that happens once every 4 years) paid by default, and add election day as the 12th annual paid federal holiday.
    8. Include a stipulation that mandates companies to provide a paid day off for any holiday that falls on a weekend either the Friday before or Monday after. Employers also need to provide essential workers that need to work on holidays, their paid day off within one week before or after the holiday.
    9. Provide guaranteed paid maternity leave for up to 24 weeks all mothers for every child, where they are eligible to start their leave at 4 weeks prenatal. Just like with the sick leave, the federal government will guarantee 100% of their pay for all 24 weeks.
    10. Provide guaranteed paid paternity leave for up to 16 weeks. Fathers also need to bond and take care of their newborns as well as the mother of their children. The federal government will guarantee the first 12 weeks with 100% pay, and the last 4 with 67% pay.
    11. Have the federal government guarantee paid time at full rates for any mandatory time off taken for civic duties like jury duty.
    12. Mandate employers provide employees with at least 5 paid workdays that count as personal days that can be taken for any personal reason such emergencies, ceremonies, errands, or extra sick time or vacation time.
    13. The federal government needs to explicitly ban employers from firing or retaliating against employees for taking any of the time off provided and guaranteed by the bill, maintain their health insurance while they're gone, and be legally required to give employees their jobs back or provide them with an equivalent position that has the pay and benefits once they're back.

    Now THIS is a serious bill. It guarantees a generous 42 workdays (20 vacation + 5 sick time + 5 personal days + 12 holidays) worth of paid time off annually which finally puts this country not just on on par with the rest of the developed world, but ahead. If the US is to serve as the leader of the free world, this is how it has to be done. This on top of the mandatory employment protections and extra paid time off for specific scenarios, makes this a truly worker friendly country. This kind of bill would increase happiness, improve health, and reduce stress for hundreds of millions of people.

    Now, I'm not naive, I know Republicans and corporate Democrats will try to water this down. However, even if we only end up getting 2/3 or even 1/2 of the benefits and guarantees on this bill then that's still a huge win. You have to start negotiations from a high a place so you'll end up with something that's at least acceptable. What Bernie proposed is starting from a low place to appease people who are genuinely greedy and apathetic to the point of being evil. You can't do that. You have to hit them hard and rally the people on your side. People will whine about me letting perfect be the enemy of good, but I'm not. I'm against letting mediocrity stop us from achieving anything meaningful. If the Democrats did less performative shit and focus on real change like my hypothetical expanded bill, they would sweep the GOP into oblivion.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    And this radical plan would just bring the USA to the established standards of the developed world.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Actually, if the US offered 42 paid days off a year as in my hypothetical bill, it would rank first in the developed world alongside Monaco who also offers 42 paid days off. Also most countries in the developed world don't mandate things like personal days, bereavement, or paid time off for mandatory civic duties. For the few countries that do, it's very limited.

    For example, a couple of countries in the Balkans offer 7 days of paid bereavement time per year, and that's the highest in the world. Most countries offer only a couple of days or nothing at all. So offering 10 days for every loved that passes away in a single year would make this the most the most generous paid bereavement leave in the world.

    Still though, we currently have nothing so anything would be nice at this point.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    You're COUNTING sick days. Sick days are generally not counted elsewhere. There are limitations on the number of consecutive days you can take without getting signed off by a doctor, but that's it. Had one team member that got frequent migraines, and averaged about 1 sick day every two weeks. Good employee, just took a lot of sick leave. Questions were asked but because it was a valid reason nothing was done.

    What you're describing is 25 days off plus public holidays. Very normal.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    What Bernie proposed is starting from a low place to appease people who are genuinely greedy and apathetic to the point of being evil. You can’t do that.

    Without leverage, we have to do it this way. They just shut it down if it's the slightest bit "radical". Make it in a way that even the most rabid MAGA diehard can't disagree with the idea.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    Shocking

    Here in France I have 35 (not including national holidays).

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What fucking century is this?

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    10 days a year is ridiculously few

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Oh look, something else Israel has that the US doesn't

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    In Sweden we got 2 weeks in 1938...

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    Germany has 20 required paid vacation days, though way more common are 30 days. Even most low end jobs I have seen provide that amount of vacation days. Though there are surely some shitty companies, which don't adhere to that standard. Ah, and public holidays don't count towards these vacation days.

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