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[–] 73 points 3 months ago (47 children)

When people say Russia, do they include their government? Because the Russian government can fuck off alongside any government. I consider myself far left and I refuse to simp for any government or its leaders. Now if we’re talking about the Russian and Chinese working class, I’ll always support them.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Well of course we should support the international proletariat, even the ones heavily propagandized to the right such as in Russia and the US.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago

    Yeah, this can’t be a partisan thing. That’s just feeding into the same nonsense division governments manufacture. It has to cross those aisles and educate folks on the fact that all working class are in the same battle against the same collective ruling class around the world. We’re seeing authoritarian regimes forming around the world and they are working together. We have to do the same.

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  • [–] 37 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    When people say Russia, do they include their government?

    I would think that would be all they are including. regular russian civilians aren't out there making a lot of propaganda, it's all either state owned media or right-wing nationalist influencers. except for the occasional video trying to convince people that pork tongue is actually good.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    So what's your opinion of the US working class?

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  • [–] 34 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (10 children)

    Support. We’re the most propagandized country in the world and need to be free of this tyrannical bullshit.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Greatly appreciate you modeling healthier ways of engaging with leftist political ideology, thank you ❤️

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    I definitely can’t take full credit, but I appreciate this. My mom was a foster system case worker and bestowed her empathetic ways to me. I also admire people like Patrice Lumumba, Fred Hampton, Parenti and a few other folks. I like to assume most working class folks aren’t approaching a debate or idea with malice. Our brains are so inundated with stuff on the daily; we have opportunities to reduce that load and be respectful.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    What qualifiers are there that we're the most propagandized country in the world? I'm of the opinion that that's an incredibly hard thing to truly know and quantify.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The US has the largest military and police force in the world, and has had their hand in a multitude of regime changes, top secret experiments, etc. “Most propagandized in the world” might be a stretch, but the propaganda machine that has been manufacturing consent on this scale for years is easily among the worst of them all. Couple that with being in bed with Israel—another heavily propagandized population.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    Because US propaganda has never been interrupted for 250 years. The regime in control of the USA has been the same regime the whole time, and the propaganda of that regime never went through an overturning. Russia's propaganda machine started in 1992, because the propaganda machine of the USSR went through a counter-revolution with the dissolution of the USSR and its machinery. The same is true of China, which would only have it's propaganda machine since 1950.

    Additionally, the USA is the inventor and creator of essentially all modern mass media from movies, to television, to the internet. It has the largest and most prolific media production organizations in the entire world, and it has such a robust propaganda system that it has literally been running radio and TV stations for propaganda on every inhabited continent for decades.

    It has the time, the means, the capabilities, the money, the power, the history, the staffing, and the motive and it doesn't have an adversary anywhere near as effective as it is for everyone else.

    Also, PR professionals in the US outnumber journalists by more than 6 to 1. And most journalists are enmeshed in the Western propaganda engine, just as they had been in Europe well before the USA even existed.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    I'll support a government in so far as it does something to help the working class, generally that means I've only ever supported a government on one issue and told it to fuck off on the rest. I vote as far left as possible and that means I've never actually had a government comprised of people I've voted for.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Now if we’re talking about the Russian and Chinese working class, I’ll always support them.

    There's literally one question that I ask Russian people that determines if they are worth the support. Just ask them if Crimea should return to Ukraine. That's it.

    Actually... No, don't do that if you still want to believe in them.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    I think "support the working class" doesn't have to mean "do whatever they say". We're all generally propagandized into oblivion. Like, the US working class has been concerned about immigrants and trans women in sports but it's not pro-worker to go after those things.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You're based.

    I truly don't understand that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" rhetoric that LOT of folks maintain out there just because they hate the US. Like if China or Russia were better places to live. The worst part is that this is what dominant classes want, polarization.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    It’s wild because I know the folks saying those things are aware that politicians are not their friends. So I don’t know why they allow themselves to be captured by otherwise problematic beliefs. We don’t apply enough nuance and separation of ideas from people.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (16 children)

    No government can wage a war for twelve years against wishes of their own population.

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  • [–] 27 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    How do you explain the US wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    The US population elected a president who was promising to end the Afghanistan War in 2008. That war ended in 2021. That's at least 12 years of war against the wishes of the majority.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Good question. For most of those years (goes for both wars) they just straight up lied about how bad things were going. Then there's the propaganda. Holy hell, so much propaganda. Like not saying you're wrong by asking that question but there are ways of selling unpopular wars.

    Added to this, capitalists fucking LOVE wars. And without breaking capitalism all they're really going to do about the majority coming out against war is say 'yeah, what the fuck are you gonna do about it then?'

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    capitalists fucking LOVE wars

    Wait, I thought China was capitalist?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (5 children)

    How many Chinese billionaires are there again, I forgot

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, that's the idea! China is capitalist but

    capitalists fucking LOVE wars

    And China hasn't fired on a ship since 1988 and hasn't dropped a bomb in a conflict since 1989.

    So is it that capitalists love wars or that China isn't capitalist? I'm confused

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    The question itself is ridiculously reductive. Let's also not forget how China has ongoing border disputes with pretty much every neighbor that occasionally flare up, is expanding its reach in the South China Sea with artificial islands that serve as military outposts, is building up a massive navy and is in the process of modernizing its army.

    The .ml explains a lot lol

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    The question itself is ridiculously reductive

    Says the person who says "China is imperialist" and "China is capitalist" and "All capitalists love war". Not reductive at all.

    China has ongoing border disputes with pretty much every neighbor

    Yup, pretty normal stuff for a country surrounded by borders and "international norms" defined by genocidal European imperialists.

    is expanding its reach in the South China Sea with artificial islands that serve as military outposts

    Against whom I wonder? https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News-Stories/Article/3771407/us-navy-destroyer-conducts-freedom-of-navigation-operation-in-the-south-china-s/

    is building up a massive navy and is in the process of modernizing its army

    I wonder why?

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-american-pivot-to-asia/

    https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/us-replicator-drones-counter-china-military-mass

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2021-12-16/washington-preparing-wrong-war-china

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    History says you are so, so wrong. Indisputably wrong

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago*

    Am I? In all those long conflicts the population was at first at least indifferent(Like the US in the Vietnam war or USSR in Afghanistan war) or outright supportive(Like the US in their Afghanistan war) and after the public opinion changed the wars quickly ended. On the other hand the tsar was deposed after less than 3 years of WWI.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Damn, americans must love expensive insulin

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  • [+] -7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Ok? They might, if they wanted they could have adopted one of the European healthcare models a long time ago.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Voting is a sham in the US. whatever the owning class pays for is what we get here. They just propagandize the voters they can control and disenfranchise the rest. Regardless of what percent of the population wants something, the scales only move when the elite tip them. We don't have a true democracy here.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    I remember smug Americans scolding third worlders for having dictators run their countries, proudly claiming that they themselves were just better, more democratically inclined, which ofc led them to living in democracies. The third worlders just didn't want democracy hard enough.

    Now Trump is president and they just lay down and take it.

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  • [+] -10 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Hey bud I don’t actually think you can get any further to the left than anarchism.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago

    So two things worth mentioning IMO, one important, the other kinda pedantic but still important from a theory POV:

    1. Being the "furthest left" is not always the best tactic, and certainly not a strategy. If being far left means a practical program to unified liberation and resistance to capitalism, that's great, I'm right there with you. But actual conditions are contradictory and constantly struggling to be the furthest left is sectarian/opportunist and not practical/critical.

    2. Capitalism contains anarchist elements, such as anarchy in production. There are right wing anarchists ho want to consolidate power by delegitimizing/eliminating social protections; not liberate the masses to self actualize, but liberate the individual to rob and oppress.

    I don't make these point to attack you or anarchism, I work with anarchists and feel affinity with them, and I think they would agree with me on these points. But in my experience, the point is not to be the furthest left, but to have the best means to determine actual truth and teach others to think critically. In some ways, the left/right paradigm does more harm than good, even if it is useful in other contexts.

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  • [+] -5 points 3 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Ironically, calling anarchism "disorganization" is almost always a result of capitalist/authoritarian propaganda about what anarchism is. Sorry you can't conceive of a world where people organize themselves without the use of oppressive violence.

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    [–] 80 points 3 months ago (31 children)

    That also includes simping Putin and Xi.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (28 children)

    Are these Putin and Xi simpers in the room with us right now?

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  • [–] [S] 20 points 3 months ago (24 children)

    Yes they’re from 3 Lemmy instances, one of them being yours.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (23 children)

    It's so crazy that I've never met one then, only people with takes that are nuanced and are based on non-CIA approved sources (although I really think this only applies to Xi, I've never seen a single person supporting Putin)

    Seriously though, I think you're pre-emptively blocking out what people are actually arguing just because you perceive it to be russian or chinese or whatever propaganda. Almost everyone I've talked to/seen has had reasonable takes that are based on evidence, and a huge part of that is asking why they believe what they do instead of just screaming "TANKIE" at them

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (22 children)

    Yeah. I haven't seen a single person actually praise Putin, because he has not achieved a single thing worth of defense and praise in all of the years he's been Russia's leader.

    Xi however is a different case. His country is doing very well on many metrics and is threatening to overtake the US hegemony on the world stage. Around the time when China seemed to start catching up to the West, you started reading about how China literally was 1984 irl.

    Outfits connected to the same US that is the single biggest reason for everything bad in the middle East and the Islamic world started condemning China for islamophobia. These same US based outfits also condemned China for worker abuses, despite the fact that their country was built on the backs of slaves, and still utilities the labour of millions of undocumented immigrants. That's not to speak about how prisoners are used as cheap workforce in America.

    The US and its propaganda arm has spewed so many lies and destabilized so many regions that I simply cannot trust anything they say about any other country -- especially not a well-positioned rival. Why is China the eternal Big Bad? The same atrocities the Chinese are accused for have been committed by many allies to the yanks, with comparatively non-existent backlash and critique. The US lies to accomplish its strategy goals, something that even the blindest US shill can't deny. Is it that unbelievable that they would lie about China?

    Then you look at China and see a nation that isn't only threatening the US position as the world leader, but also doing much more in service of its people than all American presidents since Reagan combined. You notice how narratives about "social credit scores" are exaggerated beyond parody without any criticism in Western media, and your trust to the West's judgement of other nations starts to falter.

    Why would I believe the US and its rhetoric about China? I know they don't give a single fuck about human rights, they just want to "win". To me, it's more likely that the majority of whatever China is accused of doing is exaggerated or simply untrue.

    That's what leads me to "defend" the country. I'm not Chinese, I don't live there and I gain nothing by being positive to them. However, westerners talk about China with such racism that I simply refuse to partake in. Westerners are also guilty of far uglier crimes and should therefore just zip it.

    I also love to see that there exists a government that can jail billionaires and force them to pay their fair share to the people from which these leeches get their riches. In the US, you're supposed to eat a rich man's shit with a grin.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    I haven’t seen a single person actually praise Putin, because he has not achieved a single thing worth of defense and praise in all of the years he’s been Russia’s leader.

    That's not actually true. Putin first two terms coincided with super high oil prices which brought in a shit ton of revenue. His administration used that money to stabilize the ruble and ensure consistent payments of state wages and pensions, which for the decade prior had been totally chaotic and people were not just angry but in serious economic precarity. That alone earned him a massive amount of popular support. Basically, he presided over a decade of standard of living increases that had seemed impossible before he was elected.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    China and the US has some of the same issues, and also issues more unique to both.

    The US takes on imperialism and human rights.. Or rather lack thereof is a shared value with China.

    The US and Chinese economies are both relatively fucked, based on financial speculative growth and has limited upwards possibility for their youths. Look at the American GenZ hate towards work and reciprocated reaction from employers, look at the laying flat movement in China. Which is banned to even mention on social media.

    Go to any major Chinese (Tier I and II) city and your first reaction will leave you in awe. Everything looks great on the surface, but how do you achieve cheap motorcycle deliveries within minutes? By having a large, lost, low class of workers. Selling their time for peanuts, barely able to scrape by. Potentially being shipped medicine by parents, as seen in a Danish travel programme recently.

    The US has the same kind of gig economy, but not nearly to the same psychopathic degree China does.

    Both economies have fucked up rural areas, just like most of the world, low key forcing people to move towards population centers to find work - Said centers ends up flooded with labour.

    International human rights abuse? Yeah the US is worse, but that's most likely due to the US being everywhere.

    Domestic human rights abuse? If you think the UK or US is censored, learn Chinese and visit their social media. A picture of Winnie the pooh? Gone. Mentioning laying flat? Deleted.

    Then we have the Uyghurs, Hong Kong not being respected for the one hundred year lease initially agreed upon, stole the Dalai because they can't accept Tibet isn't Chinese.

    International conflict, 9-dash line, no signs of wanting to finalise the Chinese civil war still ongoing with Taiwan, continued support of Russia despite them being behind the bloodiest current war on our planet.

    Not to talk about the AI cold war the two states are running at the moment, neither side has dared to say it publicly and neither side have shown any signs of wanting to stop the ongoing cold war for the betterment of our planet.

    Is the US the good guys? Nah.

    I'm personally growing more and more annoyed with my own government and the EU as a whole not being willing to take a harder stance against the US. Trump made the blunder of a lifetime, but the Hormuz is still closed instead of trading energy in Euroes - Benefitting everyone but the US. The world economy would had taken a rollercoaster ride, but it would benefit all of us long term.

    Both the Chinese, American and Russian leadership is a cancer to the planet, and more countries should recognise them as such

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (16 children)

    Xi may be doing things well, but with a truly distopic fine-print beyond every single good thing.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    "But at what cost??" ass take.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Copy-paste because I have things to do:

    Their "houses are for living, not for speculating" slogan is an example. China's government might be actually doing something with that... Just to by the other hand harden their mass control and mass surveillance even more; not for anything they have one of the biggest — if not the biggest — regional firewalls (maybe just behind North Korea's one) — the GFW. Then also they have "Reeducation Camps", and all that stuff that any good fascist dictatorship has. Not to forgive Xi Jingping image cult.

    So yeah, at what cost? It's at the cost of their freedom. Oh, and China has other parties outside the Chinese Communist > Party? To think, ladies and gentlemen.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Lol, so you don't understand the first thing about how China's government works, and you take everything the US State Department and billionaire-owned media say at face value. That says a lot about you, but not much about material conditions in China.

    The only freedom China lacks is the "freedom" to be a lazy parasite getting fat off the labor of others. But I can see why that would be concerning if you take the Epstein class and their pet "journalists" seriously when they assert that the freedom to exploit is the only real kind of freedom so obviously China's an authoritarian hellhole.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (3 children)

    I'm not taking that from the U.S. I'm just being consistent. The U.S. is good? Hell no, they're fucking shit. That means that China's good, automatically? Not, they're fucking shit too. It's as simple as that, I hate both because they're simply the polar opposite of good.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    If you say China is bad too, but you can't provide any source for "China Bad" other than the US State Department and Billionaire-owned media, then you clearly don't think China is bad "too" because you're happy to take the word of the US that China is bad.

    I genuinely don't believe you know even the most basic things about how China's government is organized and who gets a say. I say that because you obviously don't even know the name of the single party when you whine about it being a single party state, and because you think that them being a single party state has any bearing on how their government is organized or the amount of freedom enjoyed by their citizens.

    Maybe start with that and come back when you know anyfuckingthing at all about the subject under discussion.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I have explained everything with a lot more details in other comments. Read them before you hastily conclude that I don't know what I'm talking about, because I'm not gonna repeat myself again and again to people that polarized; you're falling into a non-sequitur fallacy from a fallacy of appeal to ignorance and a fallacy of the straw man.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago*

    I have explained everything with a lot more details in other comments

    Doesn't seem to be showing in your profile, got a link?

    Read them before you hastily conclude that I don't know what I'm talking about

    It wasn't that hasty, you made it pretty obvious, but I still waited til you removed all doubt.

    you're falling into a non-sequitur fallacy from a fallacy of appeal to ignorance and a fallacy of the straw man.

    And now I'm starting to think you don't know what any of those things mean either, since none of them apply here. But when you come back with that link that totally exists that shows you've ever demonstrated a single bit of knowledge about China's government, you can also explain how anything I said meets the definition of those fallacies, and we can all have a good laugh.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Their "houses are for living, not for speculating" slogan. China's government might be actually doing something with that... Just to by the other hand harden their mass control and mass surveillance even more; not for anything they have one of the biggest — if not the biggest — regional firewalls (maybe just behind North Korea's one) — the GFW. Then also they have "Reeducation Camps", and all that stuff that any good fascist dictatorship has. Not to forgive Xi Jingping image cult.

    So yeah, at what cost? It's at the cost of their freedom. Oh, and China has other parties outside the Chinese Communist Party? To think, ladies and gentlemen.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Fair points I guess, but I'd like to point out that a lot of these were made as defensive measures against outside interference and aren't actually all that different from stuff NATO countries are doing right now. Their mass surveillance isn't driven by corporations trying to extract every last penny off of you, which is more than what any NATO country can say. You can also just get a VPN in China and access the outside internet relatively easily. And what Xi Jinping image cult? I'm pretty sure that ended with Mao. There are also other political parties in China BTW, although they only serve advisory positions to the CPC. Not saying any of this stuff is good, of course, just that it's not that much worse, or in some cases even better, than rival countries. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about China can explain this better.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I'm not saying that NATO or the US are better, but I'm trying to push back against the polarized, totally pro-China folks who are only following a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" rhetoric, thus becoming blind to all of China's major issues.

    For example, another point is that the entire economic boom in China is driven by an enormous working class that is heavily overexploited by the State yet rendered invisible for convenience, and that is barely compensated with less than the cost of a piece of candy for that labor.

    You can also just get a VPN in China and access the outside internet relatively easily.

    I wouldn't be so sure. You need much more than that (as far as I remember, a specific form of DPI bypass, sometimes the use of multiple VPNs at once [which are hard to find and download because their sites are blocked within China's territory], sometimes even Tor or another overlay network or mixnet [such as Nym, I2P, Hyphanet, or Freenet], and a lot more stuff that I don't recall precisely because it's far beyond my current technical knowledge).

    ...there are more parties...

    Can you name a few? I'm asking honestly, not out of malice or to be combative; I'd like to know more about that, tbh, because it's hard for me not to be skeptical about that claim.

    And what Xi Jinping image cult?

    Do you remember the whole thing with the Winnie the Pooh picture? Well, sort of that. Only a person who is egocentric, egolatrized, and narcissistic enough to instigate a cult of personality would actually ban something like that, and do it the way he did it. Also, you don't have to go that far — look at the streets and you're going to see photos and pictures of Jinping everywhere. And yeah, I know that it's quite normal for a politician to display photos of himself in public areas, but not on that scale. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about; I'm from Venezuela, and both Chávez and Maduro had (and Chávez still has) a huge cult of personality, and everything aligns with Jinping's imagery.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I’m trying to push back against the polarized, totally pro-China folks who are only following a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” rhetoric, thus becoming blind to all of China’s major issues.

    To be honest, these people are few and far between. Most people will give you well-thought-out reasoning if you ask them for it respectfully.

    For example, another point is that the entire economic boom in China is driven by an enormous working class that is heavily overexploited by the State yet rendered invisible for convenience, and that is barely compensated with less than the cost of a piece of candy for that labor.

    Source?

    You need much more than that (as far as I remember, a specific form of DPI bypass, sometimes the use of multiple VPNs at once

    Everything I've heard about this has said you just need a preinstalled VPN, international eSIM, or roaming plan

    Can you name a few?

    I'm no expert on China but here is a list on Wikipedia that took less than 30 seconds to find

    Do you remember the whole thing with the Winnie the Pooh picture?

    You know Winnie the Pooh isn't banned in China, right? Do you have any sources for claims? Because it sounds like you're projecting your thoughts about Maduro and Chavez onto Xi

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    I don't think all of it is due to Chinese/Russian propaganda, but there are a bunch of people out there who seriously consider Chinese "socialism" as flawed but a good system to emulate.

    Which is wild, if they apply practically any principles of socialism to China.

    Thinking China is in any meaningful way controlled by the workers is some next-level mental gymnastics.

    I've encountered quite a number of people who genuinely believe it. And unfortunately a decent chunk of those online from lemmy.ml. It's certainly not everyone on that instance, but it is quite a number.

    The number of liberals on .world is pretty damned high too, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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