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[–] 44 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

On the topic of why people still say Wayland is slow, it probably was much much slower and only years of successive improvement in both the DE and base library got it up there in speed.

Personally I joined Linux recently and don’t understand all the beef with Wayland, but it does seem to work very well for me, so I’m happy enough with it.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    A lot of people are holding legacy grudges about issues that have long since been fixed.

    NVIDIA drivers used to be absolute hell on Linux, now they work decently well outside of some specific, older, hardware. But, if you listen to social media commentors (the source of all wisdom), you'd think that trying to boot a Linux machine with an NVIDIA card is literally(-figuratively) suicide.

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    [–] 20 points 4 months ago

    I understand unplugging a second monitor to try and get the cleanest data possible, but Id be super interested in the data with the other monitor plugged in and even playing a video in the background.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Avoid XWayland

    It added 3.13 ms of latency, more than all other effects combined. Wayland is close, but X11 still wins

    Though only by 0.14 to 0.22 ms. Given there are efforts to optimize KWin, this gap will likely close sooner rather than later. And who knows, other Wayland compositors might already be better. VRR has the biggest effect

    VRR was faster in every pairing (0.26 to 0.45 ms) and also flattened the latency distribution. dxvk-low-latency is a win across the board

    0.10 to 0.29 ms in capped scenarios is a nice boost, but the real strength of the fork shows in the uncapped test case, where it gained 0.84 ms over default dxvk.

    Additionally, in scenarios where XWayland can’t be avoided, it recovered a full 2.1 ms. Conclusion

    Not factoring in XWayland, applying every optimization (X11, VRR, low-latency) compared to a default setup (which, on a modern Linux system, I assume is plain Wayland) moved the median down by 0.72 ms.

    That does not sound like a lot, but the raw latency does not tell the whole story as VRR additionally reduces latency jitter, and dxvk-low-latency’s pacer is great at smoothing out real-world scenarios where frame time dips and GPU-bound situations occur.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    So I skimmed the actual article, not sure if the author said this, but my guess as to why Wayland has a ... worse reputation generally in the latency department, than seems to be deserved?

    At least for myself, there was a significant period of time where ... XWayland was the only way to actually run whatever game, on my system, with/via Wayland.

    If this kind of thing was not just myself, and was generally common... well then XWayland = Wayland -> Wayland sucks.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago

    It is super neat to have numbers on this.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    FYI, all the tests use Nvidia GPUS.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    Interesting read!

    It would've been interesting too see how it compares to recent Windows versions as well.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Wish the VRR on my 180hz monitor wasn’t flickery :(

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Without dxvk-low-latency, XWayland adds 3.13 ms of latency to the measurement.

    Can 3ms actually be noticed? Like if you randomly select one mode and did a "blind" test to see if you can tell the difference which mode is on? This honestly sounds impossible to me.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago

    If you're familiar with the setup and play something where latency matters (competitive FPS and rhythm games cone top mind) I guess it might be enough to their you off your game.
    But on an unknown system, where you have no comparison, I'm not so sure.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I guess 3ms would not be noticeable to most people.

    It would be interesting to see how this behaves at lower refresh rates. Loosing the same 1 or 2 frames at 60/144 Hz should be noticeable.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    3ms by itself prolly not. But it adds up, if you add input lag, monitor lagetc.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    The 3ms is the full end-to-end latency. From the click to the monitor updating with the result.

    3ms isn't noticeable, even the worst performer (xwayland) only hit 8ms which wouldn't be noticed outside of very specific games.

    Fighting games' frames are around 17ms and moves that require hitting a single frame are nearly impossible to perform consistently.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    Cool shit, thanks.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Last time I tried pure wayland on Counter Strike 2 (a game where you can't use the Windows version online because it's blocked) this matters a lot because CS2's wayland native was glitchy with alt-tabbing and mouse grabbing with multiple monitors. Older source engine games you're also fucked because again proton is blocked and the Linux versions are (probably) stuck with XWayland for eternity.

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  • 18 comments in c/linux@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 5 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    X11 wins in each scenario, but it is just a 0.14 to 0.22 ms difference

    I think it's cool people seem to have noticed this difference.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    What a thing to worry about. I applaude the effort it is an interesting project.

    But the results... calling something "bad" for 3ms of latency is a bit ridiculous. That's only significant to a cat, to us larger meat sacks 100ms would be blazing fast reaction speed, making 3ms negligible. For an average person it means even less.

    To me the message is gaming on Linux is in really good shape as far as input lag.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Wtf no 100ms is absolutely unacceptable. Anything over 30 ms becomes easily noticeable. You can feel the difference between preformance dlss (30ms added latency) and 60 on quality. 10ms difference is whatever but its one part of a stack and it can compound if every part of the stack neglects latency optimisation

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Whenever US players find themselves on one of the AU hosted World of Warcraft servers with 200ms latency they can't stop complaining about how awful the game is to play.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    When I find myself on servers like that in any game I pretend I'm training for operating a Martian Rover and see it as an extra challenge. I just hope the ping in consistent.

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  • [+] -16 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    It takes you ~100-400ms just to blink... No, you have a placebo effect on latency. You have been trained by marketing to "feel" the difference.

    I think if anything, a response time with frame rate, BFI, and other technologies can be perceived as faster or slower. I remember watching my first 120hz TV for a movie... 24fps x 5 = 120hz so I worked out to be really smooth. 24 x 2.5 = 60hz so it wasn't really "good looking" perspectively for an uneven fps/refresh rate, even if the 60hz monitor/TV had better specs, the way the 24 fits the 120 made appearance better.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Blinking has no relationship with input latency. Its not speculation people who play games universally agree that latency is noticeable. Put some on a game at a lan then put them in an online match at 140ms and you won't find a single person who doesnt notice.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    I'm not saying it does. I'm just saying your argument of 30ms being noticeable is null as blinking is ~10x that.

    Anyway your new argument is online competitive play where Ethernet might have 30ms server RTT vs someone with 140ms wireless, sure, bc even if your reaction time is 100ms better than the other guy, he still has a 10ms advantage over you, minimum.

    Anyway, now we're all over the place. Look at the figure given in the article that gives a higher level of Total latency

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago

    End to end system latency on a good system is around 15-30ms. I'm saying that I can absolutely tell the difference between end to end system latency of 15-30ms and 60-75ms. Its pointed out and noticed constantly by players and reviewers its one of the biggest strikes against dlss and other framegen. The 100ms network example was an extreme one to highlight that its noticeable even though its "only a blink of an eye".

    If any part of the stack increases input latency it quickly degrades the experience. Lucky 10ms on an already very efficient system does not make Wayland a deal breaker but if that was 30ms difference it would be.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    But the results… calling something “bad” for 3ms of latency is a bit ridiculous. That’s only significant to a cat, to us larger meat sacks 100ms would be blazing fast reaction speed, making 3ms negligible. For an average person it means even less.

    You are conflating reaction time and response time. They are very different things.

    Yes, your reaction time is in the 100s of miliseconds, but it doesn't take much of a delay in the response to your reaction before it becomes perceivable, and the response time is what was measured here.

    If you have ever played rhythm games, then you may be aware that some of them have settings that allow you to offset the delay, such that your pressing a button at the exact same time as the note plays is also registered as happening at that time, even though it took some additional time for the input to reach the game. Without such a setting, you intentionally have to press buttons early (how much depends on your setup) to ensure that your input registers at the right time. A delay of 100ms would be extremely obvious

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    You underestimate how short 100ms really is. Animations of 200ms feel snappy, anything less and you can leave the animation away.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    I'm well aware how short 100ms really is and it is very obvious if your inputs are off by 100ms or more; rhythm games are rarely that strict, but I've also played games where some inputs had to be timed to within 1/60th of a second (~16.7ms)

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    It's not that you will necessarily perceive that latency in any meaningful way, but in a competitive gaming setting, a few ms of latency means you react a few ms later, which means your opponents get a few extra ms.

    I mean 3ms is very good, and nothing to worry about IMO. Pretty sure Windows isn't any better either. Either way, in a competitive setting, every ms counts.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago

    17 year old project that still cannot match it's predecessors...

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