Twonks | Bluesky

Transcript

TW😢NKS

A comic in four panels:

Panel 1. White text on black

AI Design Logic

Panel 2. A guy sits in a restaurant at a table with a checkered table cloth. A waiter stands near, hands behind back waiting attentively.

Guy: Get me a cheese pizza

Panel 3. The waiter returns with a pizza in hand.

Panel 4. The guy gestures proudly at the pizza. The waiter looks less than amused.

Guy: Wow, look what I made!

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[–] 175 points 4 months ago (32 children)

Rich people think this way for everything

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  • [–] 56 points 4 months ago* (9 children)

    That’s why they don’t see any problem with replacing workers with AI. They think AI will do X better than humans do just like machines could build X better than humans could at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

    But the cost benefit analysis often proves to be quite the opposite in the long-term, despite deceptive short-term gains. But a short-term gains seem to be all that businesses seem to care about.

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  • [–] 49 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    They like AI because it doesn't provide feedback about their ideas being less than perfect.

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago (20 children)

    That's one of the core injustices of capitalism.

    Rich person says "Build a thing"

    Workers design, research, and build the thing.

    Rich person keeps the profits.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Reminds me of when I heard someone talk about a recent experience when they "built houses". I thought that sounded unlikely, as I could not picture this person wearing a toolbelt and hardhat and actually swinging a hammer. I asked for clarification, and they explained how they managed a construction company or something, and that in English, saying "I build houses" covers the management side as well, not just the people actually doing the building.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    As someone who has actually physically built houses (i.e. nailing walls together, putting up the siding, hanging and mudding sheetrock, installing doors and windows etc.) this mindset pisses me off more than anything. "Management" does stuff like buying already-built houses, trucking them to our site and placing them on foundations, discovering the houses were built in the 1960s with 2x3s instead of 2x4s and thus needed to be torn down to the floors because they're no longer up to code, necessitating us rebuilding the houses entirely from the floors up, and then discovering the houses were placed two feet too close to the property line so we have to literally chop two feet off of them and rebuild the walls.

    True fucking story. And I forgot to mention that the floors were 3/4 rotten so we had to rebuild most of them, too.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    the amount of resources that must have gone into that whole process, and the fact that they [management] were apparently fine with is appalling to me. wouldn't they at least have financial incentives to do it right the first time?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Well, the organization was kind of like Habitat for Humanity, just smaller. They mainly existed on charity donations. Looking back on it (forty years later), I suspect that the guy running it was embezzling a lot of the money.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    The laid off workers also suffer the loss, typically.

    Furthermore, I don't think "he gambled" compellingly makes this system fair or good.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    The laid off workers also suffer the loss

    Or benefits when they got employed. Point is, that you aren't rising much with just working. You earn your wage whether the owner did right or wrong decision. Unlike them you don't have to bear the risk of losing your savings

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    The owner also gets a wage and benefits while the process is running.

    And much of the time, they're spending VC money. Minimal personal risk.

    And even so, that doesn't justify the owner keeping almost all of the proceeds. I don't care if they put their life savings into it. Labor built it.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago* (7 children)

    Wage paid out of your own money to youself isn't a benefit.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    VC funding.

    Also why are you so invested in defending capitalists?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    VC funding

    VC funding isn't free money. Usually you have to have alredy prospering business for anyone to even talk with you. Companies like WeWork or more recently AI companies are extremely rare exception.

    Also why are you so invested in defending capitalists?

    Why not?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    VC funding isn’t free money. Usually you have to have alredy prospering business for anyone to even talk with you. Companies like WeWork or more recently AI companies are extremely rare exception.

    lol. Many people get funding for their companies because of their connections. Zoom famously got funding even though the investors thought it was stupid to try to address what they saw as a solved problem, but he was their friend so they gave him a few million dollars.

    The last business I worked for started with his daddy's money, which (surprise) came from previous capitalist exploits. The first one was similar.

    Why not?

    Capitalists have done incalculable harm to our environment, society, and individuals. They don't need your defense. They have almost all the money and power.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    What you don't see are all the cases of business failing resulting in total loss of capital. What you see, you see because it worked out. But for every single startup that survived are 5-10 that don't.

    Capitalists have done incalculable harm to our environment, society, and individuals

    First, generalization like that caused incomprehensible harm to many societies. This sort of generalization was foundation of Fascism, then Nazism, and then Holocaust.

    Second, while imperfect, that capitalist system works. I've seen no other system that would reconcile the incentives of multiple egoistic parties. None. Every utopian design fails miserably when inevitably some people turn to be assholes.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Failing businesses is irrelevant to the argument that labor is entitled to a fair share of what it creates.

    Your analogy to generalizations and an old timey Godwin's law is laughable.

    The capitalist system "works" at tremendous cost to many people. Many such systems work. Chattel slavery would "work".

    And you haven't clarified why you're so eager to defend this system. Are you a capitalist? Do you employ people while keeping the bulk of the profits?

    I don't think I can take you seriously

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Failing businesses is irrelevant to the argument that labor is entitled to a fair share

    How about labor getting their fair share of loss if business they work in fails. No? Why not?

    And you haven’t clarified why you’re so eager to defend this system.

    And you haven't proposed any better system. It's always the same when I ask that question.

    But I'll satisfy your curiosity. I am a capitalist. I run super small business. If you think it's sunshine and rainbow, you're sorely mistaken. It's more work, there's no pay guarantee, competition is ALWAYS ahead of you, in capital, scale and know-how, you're sweating shitless on any change in costs, because raising prices always comes at the risk of losing customers, meanwhile you're required to do shit ton of government mandated paperwork.

    But I'm still in favor of capitalism. Because my parents and grandparents lived in socialism and told me how their life looked like. Long story short: It was an inescapable poverty and no free speech. That's how alternatives really look like.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    How about labor getting their fair share of loss if business they work in fails. No? Why not?

    If the business fails, the workers lose their income and their shares are just as worthless as anyone else. The workers should have shares. (Or some other mechanism so there's not a handful of fat cats living a life of luxury due to the labor of many others)

    The person who started the business can always go work somewhere else. It's not like he's put to death. And if the concern is that "someone who loses their money might suffer and die" then we should fix that problem more generally, because there are many other ways to end up there.

    And you haven’t proposed any better system. It’s always the same when I ask that question.

    That wasn't the question or the point. A fairer system off the top of my head is profit sharing with a union. But that wasn't the point.

    If someone says "X is bad for A, B, C" saying that Z isn't better is not a rebuttal. We haven't gotten that far. We're trying to reach agreement that X is bad. Then we can talk about replacing or fixing it. Maybe Z does suck.

    It's a common mistake. Someone will be like "windows sucks" and someone will be like "well apple is expensive", just blazing by on that express train of thought. Take the local train.

    But I’m still in favor of capitalism. Because my parents and grandparents lived in socialism and told me how their life looked like.

    So you have generational trauma skewing your views.

    Long story short: It was an inescapable poverty and no free speech.

    Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with this economic system. And let me remind you of all the people fired because their employer didn't like what they said, where they risk falling into poverty and worse.

    The way capitalism manifests in the US is a set of tiny tyrannies. Your boss tells you when you can piss, what you can wear, what you can say in public. Maybe you don't care because you are the boss. You give your people time off?

    I am a capitalist. I run super small business. If you think it’s sunshine and rainbow, you’re sorely mistaken. It’s more work, there’s no pay guarantee, competition is ALWAYS ahead of you, in capital, scale and know-how, you’re sweating shitless on any change in costs, because raising prices always comes at the risk of losing customers, meanwhile you’re required to do shit ton of government mandated paperwork.

    And the dream is for you to make it so big that you don't have to work anymore. Your business expands. You buy out or out compete everyone else. You sit back and let other people work. Then you raise prices, lower wages, and buy a private jet.

    The end state of capitalism is a rich asshole who doesn't work, and a shitty world for everyone else. Maybe it takes years. But enshittification is pretty widely understood.

    Maybe a worker owned collective would enshittify, too. But as a small consolation, you'd at least have thousands of rich people instead of a billionaire.

    Now, I wrote this on the toilet so it's not the most coherent or polished. I appreciate you taking the time to go back and forth even though we disagree.

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  • [–] 35 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Obviously never used AI. How it really goes is that you ask for a cheese pizza and after you spend hours and a bunch of money on tokens, you get an onion and peanut butter pizza with no cheese and you go, "Fuck it. Close enough."

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    You forgot the part where they steal the pizzas from other parlors to sell them as thier own.

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago
    [–] 60 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    you know, i've tried to defend some usage in the past, explaining my processes and the many steps of manual refinement, masking, and layerwork i put in to things, how i only run local models with open weights, how all my power comes from hydro etc etc

    but as the tools keep evolving i've realised nobody else seems to actually care about the process. the pro-people just want as much slop as possible. someone likened it to a slot machine, where you keep pulling just because. that's where we are now.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I fully get where you’re coming from. I fully believe that you can’t vibe code correctly unless you already know how to code correctly. I’m against the shifting paradigm of β€œwho cares what the code looks like aa long as it works properly and the LLM can read it quickly” bullshit that’s coming out of it. I want to read the code and understand it too. I want it to be object oriented and not just dumb ad hoc methods everywhere that’s 1,000 lines when it could’ve been 100 lines.

    Now anecdotally, as someone who uses it for my main work and side project, I am still getting a lot of use out of it. I’m learning new things at a faster rate than I would have before. For my side project, I am trying to optimize gear sets for a game and there’s hundreds of millions of different configurations. The LLM I’m using knows about my code and the project and what I need and is able to suggest other algorithms, like I was able to learn about Dinkelbach’s algorithm. I have it write up design docs with formulas and pseudocode implementation and I review that and it takes my comments into account. I treat it like a junior developer and ask for questions to make sure I understand what it’s doing. I think a lot of people aren’t treating it like a junior developer or intern and that’s where problems come from.

    Now, I wouldn’t be using it if it wasn’t free with my company, as this is more of β€œlearning/research” for my job.

    And for my job, we have semantic memory and a ton of MCP servers setup that guide it through the right code and can do internal documentation search so it’s way more powerful than just using base Claude Code or whatever. It has helped me stay more on track with my projects as an ADHD person (even though I’m medicated) by documenting what it does after it does it in a shared doc rather than me forgetting to do that because I run a command and log off for the day or something.

    I do hate the water usage and energy usage though…

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    Same, but you forgot, the massive stealing of intellectual property that no government fights against because they are scared to be left behind by big tech, the impact on learning (especially students), and the impact on little hands that had to moderate the NSFL content.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    i refuse to use ml models for code. the copyright issues alone should be enough to keep them away from every public code base until the matter is settled. but also because local tooling is, frankly, shit. i have a bit of hope for text diffusion models, but i have a hard time seeing the situation improving because everyote is full in on cloud models now.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Imagine if you put that much time into a useful skill.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (9 children)

    i do. i experiment with transformer and diffusion models like a few hours a month, tops. the result isn't interesting enough. the process of bending and breaking the models is the fun part.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Sounds like it's a very rewarding hobby lol.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (7 children)

    yeah, it's a great way to see the limitations of these systems. just like ctf and ioccc.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    I was being sarcastic, man. That sounds like a tremendous waste of time.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    i will always take the time to explain things i find interesting to people. the benefit here is that i can now much more efficiently break large models as well when i come across them. helps me add anti-ai clauses to websites, cv's, and repos i publish.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Thanks for taking one for the team then, I guess!

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    it's the curse of getting into something early and it becoming a global issue; i did a course on machine learning in 2014 and have tinkered since then.

    like imagine getting into blockchain-based systems because of git in 2007. can't talk about that stuff at all now.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Surely you can see the damage it's doing to human creativity and intelligence, the economy, and the ecosystem as a whole.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    oh i am anti as all hell. i have knowledge of how the models tend to work, how the training is done, and how reasoning and tool use is implemented. that's why i never use online models and check the datasets of local ones.

    but like... the idea isn't bad. it's just that the way people use it is to steal information, burn through massive resources, and atrophy their knowledge. just like how the idea of a block chain, or a uniquely identifiable digital token, isn't intrinsically bad, but the biggest use was grifting.

    a model trained on consensually acquired data, using only renewable energy, run locally, can still achieve useful things like quickly finding information from a loose query, doing bulk edits, making templates and placeholders, or offering suggestions. it's just that it would take longer and not be hype-worthy. so no for-profit entity does it. that's what makes projects like the ai horde interesting.

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    the best part is that the waiter stole it from another restaurant

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  • This, but you don't get a pizza, you get a wheel of iron, colored in brown with glue on top of it.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago*

    AI would bring you a big cheese wheel with salami on it, and temu Ratatouille in the background, in the wrong scale. Because that shit is DUMB!

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Somebody on the other app said that Cheese Pizza stands for CP and the AI thing becomes even more accurate

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  • [+] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    "Give me a cheese pizza in the style of a famous italian restaurant pizza kitchen. Use lots of cheese, tomato sauce, and bread. Cook it in an oven at a very high temperature. The cheese should be hot to the touch. The crust should be thin when the cooking is complete and have a few tiny black spots on it to show that it is crispy. Put the pizza on a metal tray and deliver it to my table within the next thirty minutes. Make no mistakes."

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You forgot to specify Italian DOP cheese, now you have a pizza oozing with shitty Kraft/Lactalis pseudo-cheese.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    How is this different from what anybody who hires or employs people do?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    How is this different from what anybody who hires or employs people do?

    Fun question.

    1. Most employees will someday no longer be day-one idiot employees. (conttasted with AI)
    2. Many managers take a class or something to know how to get results from their employees. (in contrast with many people given unlimited token allowances)
    3. Most employees are capable of a relationship amd even loyalty, if any is merited. (in contrast with corporate AI API vendors who only want to extract wealth)
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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I think most people leading a team would say "we built this". Personally, if I hire someone to build something for me, I'd say something like "I had this built" intead of saying I built it myself.

    I think there should be a short form for "I had AI do this for me"... "I prompted" maybe?

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    People very comfortably say "Company made this", or "we made this" regarding a place they work even if not on the team if talking to someone external.
    When people get houses built they often say they're building a new house, even if it's actually someone else doing every part of it.

    There's a part of our language that lends itself to having the cause of a thing be responsible for the thing.

    The closer it gets to being something you could have personally done every part of and another person is involved the more we tend to draw back, which is why the AI art language grates a bit.

    My coworker said he's building a cabin up north: I have no uncertainty at all that he's approving a design and someone else is doing it.
    I wouldn't say I put up a handrail on my stairs: it's plausible I could have, but I didn't (it's an awkward space with weird stud spacing, and I have older family I want to be able to rely on it, so I paid someone with licensing to do it right in 20 minutes). I don't want to take credit for what I didn't do.

    With the art, only one person actually caused it to be made. But it also feels like taking credit for something more difficult than it was.
    If I drop a bucket of paint off a balcony, I wouldn't say "I caused a giant mess to be made", but "I made a giant mess".
    If I pointed at it and said "I have made art", people would assume I was joking, despite a surface similarity to some art. The amount of effort is disproportional to the claim.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I believe the "part of our language that lends itself to having the cause of a thing be responsible for the thing" (in the contexts you give examples for) is just the human desire to be included in what's happening, even if you shouldn't be. If we were honest, we would callout these inaccurate claims. But it is a component of social lubrication that we ignore minor inaccuracies. We allow white lies because the cost of pursuing them is greater than the value of uncovering them.

    That is not the case with people falsely claiming ownership of things genAI has made for them. Presumably because we understand that the person "building their house" is not building their own house from scratch. And so it doesn't erode the foundation of architecture to allow that inaccuracy. Carpentry as a profession won't be written off because Business Chett heard someone say "anyone can build a home (by having someone else do it for them)."

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    This reads like a rebuttal but I'm not seeing it a contradiction.

    If you don't provide the ideas, manage the logistics, supply the labor, test for quality, etc., then I wouldn't say that you were a part of making it. You're an investor, certainly, but that's not a maker.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    Well see that's the thing about patent/copyright/trademark/etc laws that don't make sense to me. If it's illegal to copy someone's idea and sell it as your own how is it viable to ask AI to do something where it pulls all of the data from someone else's work and gives it to you and you sell it as your own. (Or use it to make something you sell) In general it would make sense that you would have to pay the person who's idea it was you used for each sale... Or that no one can own any idea, and patents/copyrights shouldn't exist at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    AI eliminates software copyright.

    Look at malice.sh

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Not sure what malice.sh is, the link goes no where for me.

    That said, as far as I knew a fully AI created work couldn't be copyrighted, but that doesn't mean someone who uses AI to make something and sell it can be used legally without purchasing it. I assume you probably could even make a copyrighted work that you used AI to make, so long as it wasn't fully AI created

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Presumably this:

    malus.sh - Clean Room as a Service | Liberation from Open Source ... Clean Room as a Service Finally, liberation from open source license obligations. Our proprietary AI robots independently recreate any open source project from scratch. The result? Legally distinct code with corporate-friendly licensing. No attribution. No copyleft. No problems.

    The problem is that AI actually can do useful work, unlike what the fuckais want people to believe. It can do that. Except you don't get any updates or support, or help with fixing bugs. So not even sure how useful this is. But oh look how evil lol

    All this shows is how stupid intellectual property, patents and copyright is. We're not talking about "high art" or ingenious inventions or stuff, it's all capital sucking up the work of workers and turning it into a commodity. A commodity that fundamentally is easy to copy. And copying isn't theft, it doesn't take anything away except the potential profit the capitalists are dreaming of. If you are taking away my copy, my ability to learn or enjoy culture, then you are the thief. Because most of the time there is no profit, only potential profit that would never materialize. We have a 1000 textbook variations about the same topic, because every one has their own copyright instead of collaboration and free resources. Pulp.

    There are no artists posting on reddit, they are no genius comments or novels posted. Millions of books from an industry that produces slop. And LLMs managed to turn all that into something resembling intelligence which might be useful for quite a few things. And they don't even copy, they use machine learning to turn it into a model of the thing.

    And suddenly everybody looses their fucking mind and pleads for more stringent copyright laws lol.

    Fuck the AI bubble and environmental BS and do address the avalanche of societal problems coming our way, but copyright law is not the fucking answer. It's an oppressive and imperialist tool to collect rent. And it will make things much worse long term if there are no legal open source/weight AI models.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    ugh

    These guys sound like a bunch of assholes.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    I mean yeah totally, it sounds comically evil lol. But I don't think this will even work out for them.

    If it could work out to really cleanroom create new standard library stuff, then the "value of programming labour" has actually gone down very much. At least for these kinds of "solved problems". That would be the moral there, that we have solved certain problems and now have machine intelligence who can create infinite variations and adaptations to this. Which would be awesome, being able to rewrite much of the IT stack in more safe or more performant languages, or automatically optimize and improve. If that was possible already it would be a cause to celebrate. On to code bigger and better things.

    But we're not even there yet, they'd have plenty of problems, bugs, issues and downsides with their "malus alternative". So I don't see a huge issue with this.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    But the pizza was stolen from the store down the street

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    Architects to engineers? Engineers to construction workers?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Photographs: 🀨

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    I prefer the term β€˜built’ when I share my vibe coded slop, thanks

    *sarcasm

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I definitely get the sentiment. But in my opinion it's closer to somebody going to the pizza shop, ordering and picking up a pizza and bringing it home to fam and saying "hey I got us a pizza"

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    I sometimes have LLMs make and spin up single us UIs for things. It's not uncommon for me to prompt "make it pretty" or " can you make it" pop " more" which makes me laugh quite a bit.

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