Technology

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[–] VoteNixon2016@lemmy.blahaj.zone 117 points 4 months ago (2 children)

They even mention how the point is to buy the whole laptop once and then upgrade or repair it, instead of buying an entirely new laptop. Of course they're selling fewer laptops than anyone making mediocre netbooks

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[–] sfxrlz@lemmy.world 26 points 4 months ago (1 child)

But that’s not that easily quantifiable so it’s bad /s

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[–] VoteNixon2016@lemmy.blahaj.zone 29 points 4 months ago

MBAs in a nutshell

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[–] tirateimas@lemmy.pt 18 points 4 months ago

Exactly

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[–] Dultas@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago

So few that if you order one now you only have to wait til October to get it.

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[+] placebo@lemmy.zip 15 points 4 months ago (40 children)

[deleted]

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 67 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (23 children)

And I don't see why that is a problem. If a company is doing good thing and sustaining itself, I don't see why they will need to be the next dell, hp, or lenovo. That feels like the toxicity of "endless growth" in the capitalistic view of the world.

Not to mention in most of the place I go to, these are the most popular laptops only behind macbooks. In many situations, they are even more popular than macbooks.

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[–] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago (22 children)

I have never seen a Framework in the wild, however I applaud their approach, but even when taking repair costs in consideration, Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop and using the old laptop for some other purpose. I can't imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive, but I hope they do, I wish other manufacturers would make repair a higher priority.

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[–] runner_g@piefed.blahaj.zone 14 points 4 months ago (10 children)

My anecdotal experience - my Asus gaming laptop died about 6 months ago. with a lot of trouble shooting, I determined it was most likely the mobo. I decided to go with a framework, and was able to bring over my hard drive and ram, saving me like $400.

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago (9 children)

You also likely don't need to reinstall/resetup everything, which is absolutely painful.

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[–] runner_g@piefed.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

Getting the framework driver's was painful. I needed to download them over wifi, but wifi wasn't working because it needed the driver. okay, download on another computer and install via USB, nope. USB drivers aren't working either. I ended up spotting my hard drive into my desktop, downloading the drivers that way, and then moving it back to the framework laptop to install.

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 1 point 4 months ago* (2 children)

If you have a desktop with internet connection, maybe a USB stick would suffice?

There is also USB tethering from a phone that could work.

I am not defending framework. They should try to do better (maybe windows is the bottleneck? not sure). Just offering solutions to people who might encounter this problem later.

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[+] GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

[deleted]

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 3 points 4 months ago

oh Sorry, bad at reading comprehensions :(

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[–] webhead@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

I've literally never had a computer need drivers to make basic USB work in the past probably 20 years. I had a bleeding edge ai 350 framework right even when it came out. Linux was a little flaky with my sound but everything else worked. Same in Windows. Maybe I needed Wi-Fi drivers, don't recall, but I know USB worked without any. I'm really curious how you needed USB drivers of all things genuinely. I mean you installed the OS presumably from a thumb drive so how would that not work in the same os after installing? Lol.

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[–] runner_g@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 point 4 months ago

I took the working hard drive, OS and all, from my previous laptop and slotted into the framework. No OS installation needed.

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[–] runner_g@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

It may be a separate issue to drivers, because I have this other issue where after waking up from sleep, I have to either reboot or physically remove the USB port and plug it back in to make the USB work. I've disabled "allow windows to put this device to sleep" for every single USB titled thing in device manager, so I'm not sure what the issue is. I plan on installing a small linux partition at some point to play around and see if I like it.

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[–] webhead@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago

If you really moved the hard drive from one laptop to another without reinstalling the OS, that's probably going to cause issues. It'll "work" seemingly but it's gonna be messy like this. You're going to spend more time hunting weird shit than you would just doing a reinstall imo.

I'd backup what you need to and start over or you're probably going to keep having strange issues.

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[–] kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 4 months ago

USB drivers aren't working either.

What the hell do you mean, USB drivers need to be downloaded? Isn't that standardized and included with the system?

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

I would like to offer a slightly different perspective: I believe framework is uniquely positioned to survive the ram apocalypse (at least respect to their scale).

In the sense that, framework user can keep purchasing and upgrading components, like battery, screen, speaker, hinge, expansion card, without needing to worry about ram prices, and framework can profit from these component without needing to subsidize ram prices.

That being said, as a smaller company, they certainly don't have the same amount of bargaining power on ram as most big players, and the launch of LPCAM2 is a bit risky, since that pervents people from purchasing new ram/board/laptops given the current ram prices.

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[–] AbidanYre@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Does a new generation mobo/chip combination generally still support the older generation of RAM?

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

Nope, not on intel core ultra 3 unfortunately (unless you have LPCAMM2 lying around, which is unlikely), that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.

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[–] AbidanYre@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.

That's what I get for only reading 2/3 of your comment before responding.

🫰 1

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 3 points 4 months ago (6 children)

Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop

They're absolutely not.

can't imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive

Being that you can and have been able to buy them without RAM or storage, I'd say they're better-positioned than anyone.

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[–] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago (5 children)

Umm, not sure if you have seen Framework's prices.

The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850 (and you can't get it until October). To buy an equivalent Dell? Around $1,000 and you can get it tomorrow. The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.

And no, they aren't positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2. You don't have that just lying around.

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850

Is not at all a weak processor. Intel currently makes the best x86 mobile processors on the market. The entire point is that you don't have to buy a whole new computer when you upgrade. You just get an updated motherboard and slap it into the existing chassis.

The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.

And all 3 will be outdated when it comes time to upgrade. And they'll all be shittier than the Framework.

they aren't positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2

That is 1 of 5 computers they sell.

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[–] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch. The i9 version you can't even buy from Framework currently. I get the homerism for Framework, but I guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.

I don't think you get the point. To upgrade a Framework, even if you are able to move the ram and SSD over, you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop. With Framework, you move parts over and slowly upgrade. It's not sustainable at the current costing for anyone except for people who are very into home repair.

Framework is moving all over their laptops to LPCAMM2 because the newer platforms require it for faster RAM, the alternative would be soldered on RAM which defeats the entire purpose of Framework, as you wouldn't be able to 'upgrade' your laptop or repair it.

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 1 point 4 months ago

Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch

Brother, what Intel processor are you talking about? They sell the latest gen of processors, which are the best you can buy.

guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.

LOL based on what? They sell more computers than they can produce.

you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop

For a lot more money, yes. I don't think you get it. You can just upgrade the motherboard. You don't need to replace anything else. You can upgrade the display, you can upgrade the RAM, you can actually repair the battery, the keyboard, the trackpad, etc. etc.

the alternative would be soldered on RAM

...nope? Not correct. They can continue using regular old SODIMM RAM like they already are in the FW13. Don't know where you're getting this from.

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[–] spectrums_coherence@piefed.social 0 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

That is just plain not true. If you are a enthusiast and know where to look then you definitely can find better deal than framework, but getting a dell (or even better dell?) for half of the price is simple not true.

On Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-14-laptop/spd/xps-da14260-laptop, a core ultra 7 358H with 32GB Ram and 1TB SDD is 2749$ with no touch screen and a 2K display and windows Home.

On framework website https://frame.work/products/laptop13pro-intel-ultra-3/configuration/new, the same processor, ram, storage, with 2.8k touch screen, plus windows pro cost 2299$

Framework is cheaper than dell if you don't try to find deals or buy older models.

If you buy older models, then framework don't need to replace ram, I can upgrade my laptop to kitted out ryzen AI 9 for only 849$, https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009 with my existing 64GB of ram. I don't think you can get any laptop close to that quality with this price.

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[–] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago

It's very true. You recognize that Dell always runs discounts and the only people paying full price would be corporations or ignorant people such as yourself? Literally Dell is running a discount to bring the price down to $1,300. Wild how price inefficient Framework is, for something you can't get until at least October, when every other manufacturer you can get now.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 12 points 4 months ago (11 children)

Why does everything need to cater to the average consumer? The average consumer is a fucking idiot, especially when it comes to technology. They don't need to sell to everyone, they just need to sell enough to keep their company running and their people paid.

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 4 months ago (9 children)

I feel this way about spicy things. Everything "hot" is just hot to the average schmuck from the Midwest. Anything spicier than that gets dumbed down to become that (like taco bell Diablo sauce) or becomes hard to find.

I really enjoyed when that Buldak 2x spicy chicken raman "challenge" became a thing, because that's some great tasting raman and more in line with the normal amount of spicy I like to eat. Now I'm back to having to just order it online again.

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[–] fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.com 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

You can order the sauce separately too. I love that Buldak spicy carbonara stuff.

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 4 months ago

I totally have some! But man, it's kind of pricey for what it is. Not saying I don't spend more on most of the hot sauces I buy, but still.

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[–] AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

In my part of the world 2x is weak, the challenges were doing 3x 😂

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

I've never seen 3x, but I've gotten the 4x before. It wasn't much hotter than the 2x, really.

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[–] AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago

At some point, your tongue is numb anyway.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

As an average schmuck from the Midwest. I'm sorry our weak tastebuds are fucking up your options.

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

It's not your fault. The taco bell one really tucked me off, though. The first summer it was out was a limited time thing. It was actually a bit spicy. A lot more spicy than anything else a fast food chain had.

But then when they brought it back permanently it wasn't half as spicy as it was. Taco Bell has like 5 fucking bland ass sauces now, and three of them taste about the same. What's the damned point? FU taco bell. You could have left me with at least one option besides all your ketchup with tobacco sauce mixed in. No wonder I've only been there like 4 times in the last year.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

Yeah, I remember thinking the diablo one was pretty hot for my taste but now it's the one I go with. I didn't know they changed it, I thought I might have developed some tolerance lol. It's gotten way too expensive for what it is anyway.

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 4 months ago

Yeah. They buy cheaper stuff, and charge more for it. I can't stand the taste of their trash burrito shells they went to. Then, they charge twice as much for just a bean burrito and give you half the filling, even though it's just super cheap refried beans.

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[–] MangoPenguin@piefed.social 3 points 4 months ago

Comes from the corporate mindset where only growth is good. Just existing as a company that's makes stuff for a small group of people is somehow 'incorrect' to these crazy people.

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[–] fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.com 2 points 4 months ago

How many laptops are enterprise purchases as well? Those dont get fixed.

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago

It may be, but that doesn't resemble what they said. Presumably that is a less clickbaity headline.

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[–] PabloSexcrowbar@piefed.social 0 points 4 months ago

That argument falls flat because Android rose to prominence on the backs of enthusiast recommendations.

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[–] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 3 points 4 months ago

XDA is pretty much slop these days.

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[–] akilou@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 months ago (7 children)

Well, what is hundreds of thousands as a percentage of the overall market? Like if they sold hundreds of thousands of grains of rice, that's "almost nothing" compared to the rest of the rice that got sold

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[–] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 8 points 4 months ago (1 child)

"Most of the market" includes the segments of commercial support contracts for office laptops which Framework doesn't even target. Then you have the next biggest which is "go to Costco/Walmary/bestbuy and get what is on sale. So Framework simply cannot be a majority brand without those.

Among the remaining segment, e.g., developers that get to shop around and buy whatever they want? Its fairly popular.

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[–] nullify3112@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

I don’t understand what you mean in your first point. There are clear pathways for companies and schools to buy in bulk on the framework website. Not saying that FW is successful in that way but it is there.

I agree on your second point but would tie it to marketing. Having your laptop on sale at Costco is a marketing strategy, which for better or for worse, FW doesn’t do right now (and probably doesn’t have the ability to do)

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

In no context is hundreds of thousands of people "almost nobody".

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[–] GalacticRobot@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

I mean, Dell is the #3 in laptop sales and sells roughly 30 million laptops per year. So yeah, Framework is roughly 0% of market share. I know this is a very tech enthusiast heavy website, but there are certain realities that people should face. It's like saying Nothing Phone is going to remotely compete with Apple. It's not a fair or valid comparison in the first place. I think a more fair comparison for Framework (beyond what they are hoping to achieve) would be with a small system builder like System 76, XMG or the likes.

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[–] artyom@piefed.social -1 points 4 months ago

This is not a reality anyone needs to "face", it's just an intentionally poor choice of words.

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[+] GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

[deleted]

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 0 points 4 months ago

Wrong

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[–] its_prolly_fine@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

I didn't know they existed, so that might be a factor too. Need some better advertising

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[–] artyom@piefed.social 4 points 4 months ago

Advertising is expensive as hell. Probably not a huge budget. The products kinda sell themselves in the right circles.

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[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 124 points 4 months ago (1 child)

I'm increasingly comfortable being in n the almost nobody category. You should be too, after all almost nobody uses Lemmy.

[–] 87Six@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 months ago

It's nice here.

Makes me think how much I wanted to play mutliplayer games as a kid. I always played single because all my games were err, yknow.

Then I got to play MP little by little only to realize I hate everyone. Teammates in shooters are almost always idiots. People raid me in online RPG's because I dare not log in at 7 AM daily. My friends are impatient as fuck playing open world games like Minecraft, it always ends in 2 weeks. Nobody can agree what game to play. They tell me how they argued and broke up with their so and so as I'm fighting for my life in the trenches of battlefield 1, like I give a damn.

Now I play by myself in that little "almost nobody" and I'm happier than I ever was in multiplayer...

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[–] DJKJuicy@sh.itjust.works 72 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I want one real, real bad. But buying anything with RAM and SSDs in it right now is off the table.

I also want a Steam Machine and an AM5 based desktop. Also not gonna happen.

[–] FoxtrotDeltaTango@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 months ago

I want one too

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[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago

Exactly, I wanted to buy the new fully metal body pro model so bad but the prices are stupid high because of the shortages caused by the AI grift

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[–] BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago

It do be like that

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[–] chloektboehnchen@lemmy.blahaj.zone 39 points 4 months ago (6 children)

I have a framework 13. Last week I noticed my battery had gone spicy pillow. Screwed it open, removed the battery and ordered a new one. A few days later I got the new battery, put it in and screwed everything back together. Took me less than 30 minutes in total, got original parts and not some sketchy Amazon crap, was less complicated than repairing my desktop PC. This is how you do repairable tech.

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[–] wowwoweowza@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

I’m thinking of a framework for my next machine but I have been using laptops for decades. Still have a Linux one from 2014. None of them get spicy pillow. So… just luck of the draw?

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[–] chloektboehnchen@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago

I guess. I've had a hp convertible previously and it also got the spicy pillow. Just my luck I guess. The difference was, that the hp one had shifty screws and lots of glue and the case was permanently deformed by the expanding battery. In comparison the experience with my framweork was just so much better

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[–] hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago

I have my fw13 plugged in almost all the time. So I set the battery max charge to 60%.

If I really need more juice, I can set it back to 100, but I basically never need that.

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[–] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

Was the battery covered by warranty?

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[–] chloektboehnchen@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 4 months ago

I don't know if It generally is, I've already had my framework for some years, so the warranty was already expired.

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[–] froh42@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago

Amazing. I did the same on my 2012 macbook air, and a friend's Asus notebook. My 2019 Lenovo is still going strong, I expect to get 10y of lifetime out of it. Oh, and Lenovo spare parts are dime a dozen. I have rebuilt old Lenovos multiple times in my life, typically by buying a broken donor machine.

So exactly what is the business case for buying a Framework Notebook?

(Yes, they are really beautiful, cool and I'd WANT one. But there always was a better option to buy, for one reason - price: used Lenovo, portability: MacBook Air)

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[–] snrkl@lemmus.org 37 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I* want* to buy one. But:

I'm mid cycle with my last laptop; and
who the hell can afford to buy RAM for a new system these days?!?!

[–] Ghoelian@piefed.social 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Even if I could afford ram, that doesn't even mean I can afford a framework laptop. I've looked at them every time I've thought about buying a laptop, but they're just so damn expensive and I already have a perfectly good desktop.

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[–] snrkl@lemmus.org 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

I hear you. My philosophy changed about 20years ago when Apple switched to Intel:

Mac laptops are expensive, but I regularly get 4-6 years from them without too much drama if I simply max out the ram when I buy them.

My thinking of my eventual move to Linux full time, a Framework or System76 machine costs similar to a Mac, and use the same Max ram philosophy.

I just wish the build quality was just a bit better for the price, but I'm willing to trade a little for user serviceability...

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[–] Ghoelian@piefed.social 1 point 4 months ago

My problem with apple is that they're a shitty anti-consumer company, so i won't ever buy anything from them. (I also just really dislike macos. have to use it for work now and jesus it is awful)

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[–] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 68 points 4 months ago (4 children)

The article is clanker slop. It's mostly reiterative, a clear sign of clanker slop. Clankers are reiterative in their slop. A lot of clanker slop is reiterative.

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[–] abc@suppo.fi 43 points 4 months ago

That's an excellent point, and you're right to push back on this. Let me make an honest evaluation of the situation.

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[–] skisnow@lemmy.ca 15 points 4 months ago (1 child)

Not all reiterative spamlike garbage is clanker slop. Some of it is deliberately written to prioritize SEO over respecting the reader or producing anything of quality. Either way thanks for giving me the heads-up not to give them any of my time.

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[–] Reygle@lemmy.world 10 points 4 months ago

AKA some of it is meatslop

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[+] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

[removed by mod]

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 2 points 4 months ago

That's where the clankers learned it.

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[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 4 months ago

It felt repetitive to me too lol. I thought it scrolled back up to the top of something.

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[–] W3dd1e@lemmy.zip 33 points 4 months ago

Honestly if the average person can’t buy it at Best Buy or Target, they won’t. Most people don’t know about this stuff.

Wherever a random coworker or family member asks me which of two laptops to buy, it’s always between a couple of prebuilt machine at a big box retailer.

I love the idea of Framework myself, but I can’t afford to buy one.

Too niche for the average buyer, too expensive for the rest of us.

[–] Burghler@sh.itjust.works 27 points 4 months ago

This is rage bait

[–] pachrist@lemmy.world 25 points 4 months ago

They are expensive up front. I have one of the first 11th generation Intel ones. I bought a new CPU fan last year instead of getting a new laptop. One of my kids dropped it, and I'll need a new screen for it here soon.

Instead of buying 3 laptops, I bought 1 and repaired it. Super worth it.

[–] NENathaniel@lemmy.ca 24 points 4 months ago

I own one 🤷‍♂️ they’re expensive but I’d recommend em nonetheless

[–] Wispy2891@lemmy.world 23 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I like the idea of owning one. Then I see the prices and I compare them with the prices of refurbished ThinkPads... (No, I don't need a new laptop)

[–] forkDestroyer@infosec.pub 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Nothing wrong with buying a used machine.

I bought one because I want to support modular/repairable tech. At the time I had the disposable income for it. I dig it.

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[–] hereiamagain@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

Samsies. I also got the amd version that came out before the AI 300 stuff, so it was discounted, which was nice

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[–] forkDestroyer@infosec.pub 1 point 4 months ago

What's surreal is that I bought it before the RAM prices spiked up. I could probably sell a ram stick now (48gb) for nearly half the price of a regular laptop. It's absurd.

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[–] Mac@mander.xyz 20 points 4 months ago

I was considering a framework but realized i didn't need a laptop. lol

Would like one, though!

[–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 55 points 4 months ago (4 children)

So it's not serving the bottom-feeder market for effectively disposable Windows laptops.

Why should it need to? Serving a niche interest is perfectly valid as long as you're making enough money at it to be self-supporting. Despite what the line-go-up-at-all-costs advocates think.

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[–] LastYearsIrritant@sopuli.xyz 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

They also have a 12" laptop for the lower end market.

When friends or family ask my opinion on what computer to buy, I have two recommendations.
1 - Frame.work with Linux on it
2 - Macbook

Unless you're tight on cash, those are the two best options. Heck, even if you are tight on cash, get a used version of either of the above, you'll probably do just fine.

Unless you're REALLY tight on cash, then get an ebay thinkpad and load linux.

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[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

Used Thinkpad is also a solid alternative if the power of apple silicon is not needed

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[–] Dultas@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago

Kinda disappointed in the recent Thinkpads since they removed deep sleep and only have sleep to idle which is garbage in my experience. I ended up re-enabling hibernate because it would get less than 8 hours on battery while sleeping and would cook in my bag once put into sleep. The framework (at least the 13 not sure on the pro) still supports deep as far as I'm aware.

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[–] 87Six@lemmy.zip 1 point 4 months ago

this can also work because they will at some point get sold down for lower prices so it's not like people that can't afford a new one can't buy a second hand one. A SH framework will be better than any shitty other laptop in the long run.