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[–] 44 points 2 weeks ago (72 children)

Me when asked whether I’d date a religious person.

To me, at least with Judeo-Christian religions that believe in hell as the destination for people who do not believe in their god, I find it so baffling that people can have mixed or non religious serious relationships, with the idea "well we just don't try to convert eachother".

How the hell do you square.

I love my spouse.

I love my God.

One day my god is going to send my spouse to be tortured for all of eternity. I will then spend the rest of my life happily hanging out with my god.

It only makes sense if you either don't really believe what you believe, or you are very certain your partner is going to change their view. From the atheist side it doesn't really matter.

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  • [–] 26 points 2 weeks ago (7 children)

    They probably don't subscribe to the entire package. Very few people do. They always cherry pick what is convenient.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

    I wish you were more correct than you intend, but you are grossly off the mark of reality.

    Most people that hold onto religion into adulthood do so because it makes them feel special above their fellow humans. It doesn't matter if all of it is correct so much as the things that make "believers" special are unique.

    TL;DR: Most religious people want to be special, not moral or correct. Which makes them evil piles of shit.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    I'm not even religious but this just feels like reductionist BS. That and that you're projecting just a wee bit.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Not everyone is a purist. Lots of the more open minded religious types are willing to entertain the possibility that their god cares more about people living a good life rather than selecting the right religion. Those types are fully compatible with a multicultural society. Often they’ll play lip service to fit in with the more extreme religious nuts, but the fact they can coexist happily is proof their views are more nuanced.

    I’m fine with anyone who is fine with anyone who is fine with anyone.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago

    Jewish people generally don't believe in hell because their scripture doesn't support it. Christians often believe in hell due to hellenization of Christian theology after the time of Jesus. Many Christians don't really believe in hell. The parts of the Bible people interpret as supporting the existence of hell are generally being misinterpreted.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (18 children)

    Judeo-Christian religions that believe in hell as the destination for people who do not believe in their god

    If you studied the theology of judeo-Christian religions, you'd learn that this view is very much a minority one. In Christianity for example, outside evangelicalism, nobody teaches that (Catholicism teaches for example that a “hidden Jesus” saves outside the church). In Judaism, as far as I know, no sect teaches that at all. In Islam, outside a few sects, nobody teaches that either (in shia islam for example, most non-Muslims are Jahil-e-Qasir, “inculpable ignorant”).

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  • [–] 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (17 children)

    First I would like to clarify my words a bit, when I said "judeo christian religions that believe X"

    I intended to mean "in the case of religions that believe X" (as in, I wanted to apply my I don't comprehend how a mixed religion relationship works for people who believe salvation is tied to belief), not to imply all judeo christian religions believe belief = salvation.

    However.

    At least from what I can see, just looking up different catholic sources. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding, https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-there-really-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church , more or less from what I can gather, that's primarally applying for say people who.. literally have never heard or rejected the gospel. IE, not someone who's married to a catholic wife and had a bible in the house and has the choice to refuse church every week.

    Sort of the old joke

    Eskimo "If I did not know about god and sin would I go to hell"

    Missionary: "of course not, if you didn't know you couldn't be blamed"

    Eskimo: "Why did you tell me then?"

    IE the concept of "invincible ignorance". and from what I'm searching the "inculpable ignorant" in islam. basically applies to people who have never been exposed to the religion. IE if they were around people of the faith... had access to a church/mosque etc.. that doesn't seem to apply.

    Pope francis had his line in 2018 that he implied atheists could go to heaven, but the vatican was quick to say taht should not "be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy father's words". In other words, the vatican isn't fully standing behind that, and that's very far from anything that the previous popes would have said.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

    Your god condones slavery. You can pontificate all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that your religion is vile.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (11 children)

    How convenient for you that you get to pick and choose which parts you like.

    Even though your own lord and savior said that he didn't come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it, and that not a single bit of that old law will change until the end of the earth (paraphrasing Matthew 5:17).

    You don't get to pick and choose what that "old law" was, it's literally the entire first part of your holy book. And it explicitly condones slavery (among a litany of other heinous shit).

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

    How convenient for you that you get to pick and choose which parts you like.

    It's not cherrypicking, it's interpretation. I do not arbitrarily choose, I study the context, and use the Love of God as an hermeneutical key, to cite Martin Luther.

    Even though your own lord and savior said that he didn’t come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it, and that not a single bit of that old law will change until the end of the earth (paraphrasing Matthew 5:17).

    I answered about this text here.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (9 children)

    I have no interest in your pathetic apologetics.

    I hope that one day you're able to escape the abusive relationship you've chosen to have with a non-existent entity. It's so very freeing.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    You refuse to put faith in things that cannot be proved? Sad if true. But it's probably not.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (5 children)

    I like to believe in true things. Call me crazy.

    We have developed this thing called "the scientific method" that allows us to understand things without the need for "faith."

    And it's likely the reason that you didn't die as an infant.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (4 children)

    Only provable things can be true?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    When we're talking about extraordinary claims, then they require extraordinary evidence.

    Or in this case, literally any evidence whatsoever.

    Take it a step further. If I'm going to base my morals and entire lifestyle on said extraordinary claims, then yes I'm going to need proof.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    So you'll never marry? A marriage change your life more than religion change most religious people's life. And there's no way to proof that your fiancé(e) loves you. There are signs, words, but they could all be lies.

    And you know… it's not because you're a religious person that you should “base [your] morals and entire lifestyle” on it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (1 child)

    The fuck are you even talking about? Really grasping at straws.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    You said that you needed proofs to make life-altering choices. I gave you an example of a life-altering choice that couldn't be based on a proof of any kind: love can't be measured, weighted, proved, scientifically analyzed. And yet, we base our life choices on our belief that it exists in a person or not. And it's just one example.

    The scientific method is wonderful, one of the great creations of the human mind. But it's a tool. A tool that can be used to answer some questions, but not all questions. To try to solve existential questions with the scientific method is like to try to cut a steak with a hammer. It won't work, not because the hammer is a bad tool (it's a very good tool), just not the right one for the task.

    Now, religion may not be for you, and that's OK. It's great even! Not everyone need to be religious. What I don't understand is why everyone should necessarily have the same world understanding. Religious people are not dumb, atheist people aren't evil, and vice-versa. Theism and atheism are just two different legitimate ways to see the world. We can learn from each others instead of transforming everything into a cultural war…

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago (27 children)

    I don’t care how “progressive” a Christian is. They worship a god that thinks it’s okay to sell your own daughter into sex slavery and murder infants of the offense of their ancestors supposedly rebuffing Israelites during the exodus (and rightly so! Look what they did to Cannan.) even though the exodus never happened.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (22 children)

    I don't care how “anti-authoritarian” a socialist is. They believe that a highly centralized one-party state and rapid, state-directed industrialization and collectivization, accompanied by extensive political repression, censorship, and the suppression of dissent will lead to communism.

    It doesn't make sense, does it? Some traditions give birth to opposing schools, and it's unjust to conflate the two just because they share a name. What your describing is fundamentalism, not Christianity, and “progressive fundamentalism” doesn't have any sense, just like “anti-authoritarian stalinism”.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 weeks ago (12 children)

    Jesus stated unequivocally and emphatically (at least according to the scriptures) that the Law of Moses is eternal and will remain in force until the earth passes away.

    And he cited a law that directs people to stone kids that talk back as a gotcha in a legal beef with the Pharisees- who were like “maybe stoning children to death doesn’t fit the crime of sassing your parents, so we should not do that”

    That same legal code that Jesus explicitly endorsed expressly states that slavery is cool, and goes so far as to say that beating your slave to within an inch that slave’s life is acceptable.

    That legal code also says roughly half of all women should be stoned because whoever wrote the damn thing didn’t understand female anatomy.

    That legal code says it’s totally cool to sell your daughters as sex slaves.

    It says you should stone kids that talk back.

    That is “biblical morality”. They might be a decent person but they worship an awful scum bag that makes Epstein and Trump look positively benign.

    And that is all just reading the damn book with some honesty.

    Suffice it to say you’re analogy is stupid and doesn’t follow. Christians worship a dude who had more to say about paying taxes to your oppressors than he had to say about slavery.

    The morality of Jesus isn’t a political spectrum. He’s a raging asshole and his morals should be left to rot in whatever unmarked grave his disciples hid his corpse in.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

    Jesus also said, “The law was made for the man, not the man for the law.” He disobeys the law more than once and asks his disciples to do the same. Then, after Jesus’s death, Peter is instructed to disobey the law even more. So no, the Bible is quite clear that when Jesus says, “Until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished,” he doesn’t mean that all the horrific commandments we find in the Bible must be obeyed. Just a few verses later, Jesus even changes the law!

    You can always take verses out of context (both literary and historical) and make anything look horrible. Here, Matthew is actually doing the opposite of what you think. When he writes, “Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,” he isn’t addressing u/FuglyDuck, an American from the 21^st^ century, but people of his own time. He’s saying that those who “relax one of the least of these commandments and teach others to do the same” will still enter the kingdom, while many Jews of his time believed they wouldn’t enter it at all.

    And right after that, he says, “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Yet the scribes and Pharisees were well known for their meticulous observance of the letter of the law. So he’s saying that people who observe the letter of the law won’t enter the kingdom of heaven, while those who “relax” the “commandments” will! You see, if you read the text thoughtfully and take its context into account, it says something quite different. It's convoluted indeed, but that's the literary style of the time. You can't make strong assertions like that without studying the subject a minimum. You can't read 2000 years old texts like they were written yesterday. Even in translation, they have to be decoded.

    I have no idea what you mean when you say that Jesus explicitly “cited a law that directs people to stone kids who talk back.” There’s no law in the Old Testament that says that. There’s Deuteronomy 21:18–21, which is a pretty bad law, and as far as I know, Jesus doesn’t cite it. But this law doesn’t speak about children: the “kid” in question is described, among other things, as someone who drinks alcohol. He isn’t a little child. But yes, Deuteronomy 21:18–21 is a shitty text, even without your exaggerations. There are other bad texts in the Bible, and not only in the Old Testament. But they have to be read in context.

    For example, you say the Bible “says it’s totally cool to sell your daughters as sex slaves.” I assume you’re talking about Exodus 21:7–11. It’s another shitty law by our standards, but at the time it was a step forward: it protects women who were sold. Yes, selling a daughter is a horrible practice, but it was the norm for much of human history. The Bible wasn’t written in a cultural vacuum. It takes people’s practices as they are and tries to push things in the right direction. And it worked! We moved in the right direction, so those laws now seem backward. They seem backward because they succeeded. Jesus says as much in Matthew 19: the law was imperfect because it was given to an imperfect people. And when Jesus gives a commandment himself, it’s still the same principle.

    But what you don’t understand is that only a small part of Christianity considers the Bible to be the “inerrant Word of God.” Jesus didn’t, and neither do “progressive Christians.” So no, my analogy still holds. You’re applying something that’s true of only one part of Christianity to all Christians, and that’s intellectually dishonest. Your criticism is completely justified when directed at people who believe God actually approves of killing people or selling slaves. But that doesn’t describe most of us. We objectively do not worship the God you’re describing.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago (7 children)

    the Bible is quite clear

    No it isn't, or else this conversation wouldn't be happening.

    The Bible is a thousands-year-old compilation of local folk tales and the musings of illiterate sheepherders, munged together by rich elites who saw its usefulness in controlling the masses, and has been translated. modified, and reinterpreted dozens of times to keep it effective at controlling the masses. It's fraught with inconsistencies, and calling anything in it "quite clear" is honestly just laughable.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (5 children)

    You didn't show anything, you shared your interpretation and claimed that it's the one "most" Christians believe without any evidence.

    More to the point though, your interpretation isn't even clear - you yourself admitted that the Bible uses difficult prose, suffers from translation issues, and needs to be viewed through a cultural lense calibrated to the times it was written. How is that "clear" at all?

    And I did give you an argument. I directly countered your claim that "the Bible is quite clear" by saying nothing in the Bible is clear and giving examples and reasoning for why I believe it isn't clear. I thought that was quite clear.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    I proved that citing official Catholic texts.

    You didn't prove anything. Depending on what statistic you're looking at, Catholics aren't even a majority of Christians, but even if they are, do you honestly think all Catholics follow the "official Catholic texts"? Catholicism is famously one of the more contentious Christian sects, and always has groups that disagree with the Pope and their leadership.

    That the Law is not eternal is very clear

    Again, it isn't, or else this entire thread wouldn't be happening, and the constant arguments among biblical scholars about that very verse wouldn't be happening.

    if you see a text that says the contrary it should either be dismissed as a text contradicting the whole message, or interpreted to find the actual message.

    Lol. In other words, "have blind faith"?

    If that's your argument, you aren't making it in good faith, and I have no interest in continuing further.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    You didn't prove anything.

    Yes, Catholics can be “contentious,” but the text I cited wasn’t an encyclical. Not all texts carry the same authority: teachings affirmed by a council are binding on all Catholics. There are exceptions, of course, but even the most traditionalist Catholics try to interpret these texts in ways that allow non-Catholics to be saved under very exceptional circumstances. They can’t reject the teachings outright without being considered heretical. If we include mainline and liberal Protestants, that clearly makes a majority.

    the constant arguments among biblical scholars

    Find me one non-fundamentalist biblical scholar who holds this position. I’ll wait, since this isn’t up for debate. Scholars debate when, how, and why particular laws changed, and what those developments mean, not the existence of these changes. If you don’t approach the Bible as the inerrant word of God (a view rejected by most Christians, even in the very fundamentalist-friendly United States) it’s clear that the Old Testament laws consciously contradict one another: they respond to one another. So the laws can't be eternal, as within the Pentateuch itself they aren't!

    In other words, "have blind faith"?

    I didn't said that at all, you're distorting what I'm saying. Why is it so hard to have honest exchange of view on this subject on Lemmy?

    I'll give an other example from The Capital. That's what Marx wrote in the chapter 15 of the volume III:

    Development of the productive forces of social labour is the historical task and justification of capital.

    Here, Marx is praising capitalism, because it develops the productive forces. If I used this quote to say that The Capital is pro-capitalism, or not clearly anti-capitalist, you'd say that I understood nothing or was arguing in bad faith. And you'd be right accusing me of that, as The Capital is anti-capitalist at its core. Of course, that don't work with less clear subjects.

    I just ask you to give the Bible the same treatment as any other book.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    Yeah I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to say, and I don't know how to make it any more clear. Agree to disagree I guess

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    If I’m missing the point in your opinion, it’s surely because I genuinely don’t understand, you’re right. Sorry if that’s the case.

    Agree to disagree is often a sane conclusion.

    (Sorry for the deleted comment too, it was for an other thread.)

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  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Jesus also said, “The law was made for the man, not the man for the law.”
    ...
    You can always take verses out of context (both literary and historical) and make anything look horrible.

    First off, it's amazing that you're pulling out "CoNtExT" on me here while doing exactly that.

    ^23^One Sabbath he was going through the grain fields, and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. ^24^The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” ^25^And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food, ^26^how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions?” ^27^Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for humankind and not humankind for the Sabbath, ^28^so the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”
    -Mark 2:23-28

    Now lets talk about that context.

    The first thing here is that they weren't harvesting or gathering. Harvesting is an entire process. With grains, they would use sickles to cut the grasses, stack them into sheaves to let the grass dry out, then take the bundles to the thresher, removing the seeds of grain, and bringing the grains into storage to keep it away from critters and such.

    What is not prohibited is what the Disciples were doing. Plucking the heads of wheat and popping them into your mouth. That was not harvesting, except in the most pedantic and modern sense of the word.

    Furthermore, most of the Laws have the exceptions for the preservation of life. The Disciples were hungry. Some translate it as 'starving'. And this is the argument Jesus is making here. That it was an act to preserve life, which is in fact permissible.

    And right after that, he says, “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” ... snip... ?You see, if you read the text thoughtfully and take its context into account, it says something quite different. It’s convoluted indeed, but that’s the literary style of the time. You can’t make strong assertions like that without studying the subject a minimum. You can’t read 2000 years old texts like they were written yesterday. Even in translation, they have to be decoded.

    Sorry. You were lecturing me on context?

    You should probably go study the basics. There are multiple legal codes being discussed in the passage. the author of Mark even explains this to you in a parenthetical aside, ya dingus. (Verse 3: "For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they wash their hands, *thus observing the tradition of the elders,").

    Jesus is advocating the written Law of Moses, as written in the Torah. Predominately, in Deuteronomy, but also in Exodus and Leviticus.

    The Pharisees were citing the Oral Law, also called the Tradition of the Elders. (they, being the Elders.) the Oral Law fixes a large number of the things that went wrong in the written law. Like, for example, they knew (long before Jesus came around) that around half of women don't actually bleed the first time they have sex; and that using a bloody cloth as evidence of virginity (and the lack of a blood cloth justification for stoning new brides) is simply fucked in the head....

    Or that it's normal for children to gripe about their parents, and normal for children to push boundaries as they grow up, and that stoning children for doing so is fucked in the head.

    They also added things like "wash your food. and your hands." to it. Mostly it was ritual and not about practical hygiene.

    I mean. if you had just read the damn passage you'd know these things. the washing of food and hands as a ritual purity was not part of the torah. it's part of the Oral Law.

    So when he says "you're righteousness must exceed the pharisees"... He's saying they don't measure up because they are not following the Law of Moses.

    Also, if you actually read Mark 7, you'd also know the answer to this:

    I have no idea what you mean when you say that Jesus explicitly “cited a law that directs people to stone kids who talk back.”

    Specifically, Jesus says in verses 9 and 10:

    ^9^Then he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! ^10^For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.’

    The first is found in Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16

    Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
    and Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    What they mean by "honor your mother and father" here includes obedience. (as well as holding reverence and respect).

    The second is Exodus 21:17 and Lev 20:9. most christian translations will say "cursed" or "speak ill of" or something to that effect, for example, the NSRVUE:

    Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.
    and All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their bloodguilt is upon them.

    the word being used in the original Hebrew is 'qalal', which yes, can mean "curse". It also means "to insult:", to "revile" or to "speak with contempt". when they do so, it's less in the sense of a ritual invoking harm on a person, and more speaking evil of them. (which is how Jesus phrased it. funny, huh?)

    the JPS, though, as a jewish translation puts it as "insult"

    Lev20:9, as the example:

    Regarding anyone who insults their father or their mother: they shall be put to death; they have insulted their father and their mother—and the bloodguilt is theirs.

    There’s no law in the Old Testament that says that.

    lol. so, Jesus literally quotes the damn thing in the passage. still gonna lecture when you don't even know that much?

    Yes, selling a daughter is a horrible practice, but it was the norm for much of human history. The Bible wasn’t written in a cultural vacuum. It takes people’s practices as they are and tries to push things in the right direction.

    So you're saying an all-powerful god, dictating his eternal and absolute and perfect law to his bronze age idiots couldn't be like "don't do that, that's messed up", but he could say things like "don't wear clothes of blended fabrics," and "Don't eat shellfish or pork"- all of which was far, far more common?

    But what you don’t understand is that only a small part of Christianity considers the Bible to be the “inerrant Word of God.” Jesus didn’t,

    yes. he. fucking. did. Read your damn book.

    ^17^“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. ^18^For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. ^19^Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ^20^For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Earlier you said:

    Here, Matthew is actually doing the opposite of what you think. When he writes, “Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,”

    lets summarize the meaning of the words on the page, shall we?

    • "I didn't come to abolish the law of the prophets"
    • "I didn't come to abolish [the law] but fulfill [the prophets]"
    • "the law is eternal"
    • "whoever breaks it will be the least"
    • "you need to be more righteous than those asshats who don't even follow the law."

    and you're lecturing me on context? about twisting verses? You're saying the exact opposite of what any honest person would read in that passage.

    Now lets have some fun. the 'new covenant" comes from Jeremiah 31:31-37.

    it says that god will create a new covenant because they broke the old one. And that god will do some magic binding rituals to ensure that this new covenant cannot be broken.

    So if Jesus did what he said he came to do (fulfill the prophets)... we literally would be incapable of breaking the written Law of Moses. Further, if Jesus was Messiah, then we'd not be having this conversation, The Kingdom of Israel would lead the entire world, Rome would have fallen at the hands of Jesus, and all the Israelites would have been gathered back home and there would be peace because no one would be physically able to deny god.

    Literally none of that happened. The very nature of the world as it exists today demonstrates the bullshit. So yeah. you actually did say one accurate thing:

    He disobeys the law more than once and asks his disciples to do the same. Then, after Jesus’s death, Peter is instructed to disobey the law even more.

    Being a blasphemer and false prophet is contrary to the Law of Moses. I get that's not how you meant it. but it is true all the same. Jesus didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (8 children)

    What your describing is fundamentalism, not Christianity

    No, they were just describing events from the Old Testament.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago* (7 children)

    Again, the Bible ≠ God, except for fundamentalists.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago

    I’ll use an actual biblical example. Moses didn’t exist, and the Exodus was not a historical event. I think the people who wrote these texts knew that to some extent. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be so many inconsistencies. They weren’t stupid; they knew what a contradiction was.

    But I don’t care. How would the fate of a people 3000 years ago change my life today? It wouldn’t. But the story is a lesson, a lesson that can change my life today. I believe that people were inspired by God to convey a message. They did so in their own language and cultural framework, using the rhetorical tools available to them: myth. That message can be summed up in a few words: God wants God’s people to be free, and God walks with us when we try to free ourselves. I’m not a slave in Egypt, but I’m not always free. I can be a slave to my anger, my passions, or a habit, and God helps me in my struggle for freedom. When I read the story of the Exodus, I look for what it can teach me about freedom today.

    How do I know the Bible is truer than, say, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, or the IKEA catalogue? The truth is, I don’t. I do think, not just believe, but philosophically think that something beyond the world, which we might call “God” as an approximation, exists. Or, to be more precise, I think its existence is more probable than its nonexistence. I don’t know that it exists; it just makes more sense to me.

    As for the rest, yes, those are beliefs, not certainties. I can live with that. Uncertainty is part of life! If we acted only when we knew something for sure, we’d do nothing. A lot of people like to lie to themselves, pretending that we can know whether God exists, that our political ideology is the best one, or what is right and wrong. Sometimes we can know these things. For example, I know that my political ideology is better than fascism; I have no uncertainty about that. But in most cases, we can’t be certain. I could stop at “a God probably exists” while continuing my life as if not, but I choose to thrive in uncertainty rather than fight it, and that leaves me freer to explore and open myself to other traditions and schools of thought.

    I said that most Christians (by far) believe people can be saved without believing, while a minority believe that salvation is impossible without the correct belief. I believe something else. I belong to another minority, probably the smallest one: I believe there is more than one legitimate spiritual path. The Catholic Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church; it’s just that some people are members of the Church without knowing it. I believe the Church is one path among others, and simply the one that fits me today. The Bible helps me, the liberal Christian tradition nourishes me, and the community shelters me.

    God is unknowable by definition. We’re talking about a being that exists outside time and space, so our words can’t legitimately claim to describe it. When we describe things, words that seem to contradict one another may both be true. It’s like two people describing the same mountain: someone on its northern face might describe it as a different mountain from the one described by someone on its southern face, even though they’re both describing the same mountain.

    If I’m wrong, if there is no God, or if I’m irredeemably ignorant of the One True Religion™, it’s not a big deal. My faith has helped me live a better, fuller, and freer life. Who cares if an effective medicine turns out to be a placebo? And if I’m wrong and only people who believe a precise set of doctrines are saved, then I don’t want to be saved by such an assholish God. So everything works out for the best. (Though that idea makes no sense to me.)

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  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (3 children)

    I didn't say it was god. These are alleged historical events. You don't get to just say it didn't happen.

    Slavery was real, and the Old Testament has explicit rules about it. And Jesus never had a single thing to say about it (besides the thing about fulfilling the old law. Which, again, explicitly includes slavery).

    This has NOTHING to do with fundamentalism. You don't get to hand wave this shit away, it's at the very core of the religion you claim to believe.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

    And now let me ask you this…

    How much of the Bible is false? How much of it could be false for you to not worship the god described in it?

    To most christians, the whole point of the Old Testament is to point to, and explain the New Testament, right? When the OT says stuff happened, it doesn’t really matter that it didn’t actually happen. It matters that people believed it happened.

    After all, if you don’t believe in the fall of man, or that god picked a chosen people and gave them the first covenant, you can hardly believe the second one, can you?

    If you don’t believe god came and spoke through the prophets and promised the messiah, you can hardly believe Jesus is that promised Messiah.

    And to be clear the only historical record we have of Jesus is in the Christian Bible. And that Christian Bible says Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law of Moses, and that it is in force until the Earth passes away.

    It doesn’t matter if the exodus happened or not, the Torah does in fact exist. (And the Torah is the law he’s talking about.) and so, with Jesus explicitly saying that, he’s also tacitly condoning slavery and all the other awful shit in the Torah.

    If you are a Christian, then you worship a monster.

    The Christian god is incompatible with a god of the gaps. Afterall, a god of the gaps is not involved in human affairs where the Christian god most certainly is.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    I’m really, really not sure how one can rectify following a theocratic authoritarian who claims to have been sent by god to take over the world with anarchy.

    Except, of course, by admitting Jesus was a charlatan.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago

    He literally told people to “Give to Caesar what is Ceasar’s”!

    It’s literally one of the most famous quotes.

    Granted it’s basically a non-answer, but that’s because if he said “pay your taxes” out right… he might have escaped the mob, but his disciples would have left him to die in a ditch. Maybe one full of molten lava all “you were supposed to be the chosen one Anakin!”-style.

    And if he said “you don’t have to pay taxes” explicitly, the Roman soldiers watching would have had him executed. (This exchange is found in Mathew 22:15-22)

    There’s also a bit about paying temple taxes, in Mat 17:24-27where Peter tells some peeps that jesus pays the taxes, Jesus basically says “the king doesn’t pay taxes, nor his children…” [claiming to be the son of god and saying he shouldn’t have to pay temple taxes…] “… but let’s not annoy the tax man…” (so he tells Peter to go find a fish that owed Jesus some coin.)

    And the point still stands. Jesus still said more about taxes, as weak and empty a statement as they were, than he does about one of the mose abominable practices man has devised.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago

    I'm a very practicing Christian, my wife is nothing. I presume you could call her agnostic. She just doesn't care. Religion was never a problem between us, I don't try to convert her, and neither does she. Politics is more of a divide as she's more conservative than me (she's not conservative, but she mainly informs herself with traditional medias… God the anti-trans disinformation is strong there!). But we work things out by respecting each others and viewing our differences as a strength. For example, we have children, I speak about my faith, she speaks about her lack of faith, and this way our children will have the chance to choose.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    That's only a minority of religions. Don't paint every religiin with an evangelical Protestant brush.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

    Mentioned in a different post on that, but I did phrase my statement badly

    IE I meant to say I find the concept of a mixed marriage in the case of people who believe, salvation = belief, and those who don't believe are damned, is crazy. not to imply all religious believe salvation = belief.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 weeks ago

    I think a lot of religious people are happy to bend the rules of their religion to match their desired lifestyle. God will forgive them and Jesus is coming for them on white horse with a choir of angels. As long as you meet your performative obligations and ask for forgiveness later, you can do whatever you want.

    Note this is not true of all religious people and while it is representative of my interactions with many American Christians of various denominations, my interactions with Christians in South and Central America and Europe have been quite different.

    I grew up in a half-religious home, but it was a very chill "God Loves everyone" kind way. Nevertheless, religion can be dangerous. While my exposure in the home was harmless, just a little casual low-key exposure to a local church put me on a path to being a very devout young Evangelical for a decade or so.

    My parents got along well and I barely remember them fighting or arguing. They made it work despite the religious gap. I now consider myself a non-theist/atheist/agnostic/non-religious/Buddhist-adjacent/Satan-loving/philosopher. I dated a few Catholic women (some more devout than others), a non-religious woman, but mostly people who just went to church with their parents or grandparents a few times a year and otherwise just lived a normal life.

    Would I date a religious person now? Probably not if their values were tied to it and it wasn't just a cultural connection. Sounds like hard work and life is difficult enough without intentionally setting everything to hard mode.

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