Comic Strips

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

They made the world to fill us with fear and then sell us a remedy for the fear. They give us pointless work to fill up our time, and then sell our time back to us in the form of convenience. They made the world filled with anger, and then sold us outlets for our anger.

They had the stuff, so they made the rules, so they made the rules to favor them getting more stuff, so they have the stuff, so they make the rules...

The Ouroboros eats itself starting from the tail, but it's the head that does the eating. These actions always start with someone who has enough wanting more. If we had the ability to shape our own destiny, we'd grow far beyond these petty things (think of how much generational trauma starts with "we can't afford to live" as the ignition point). That requires the people with the boots to get off our necks first.

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[–] village604@adultswim.fan 0 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

Or for people to collectively decide to throw the boots off, but we've been waiting all of written history for that. I'm not sure humanity is capable of it, as a whole.

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[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

We are capable of it, but the incentives are all fucked for it. It requires people to put in a fuck ton of effort... and then not suck up more then they need in doing so. Then, while they're not vacuuming up excess resources, they also have to fight all of the people who want them to fail in order to maintain the status quo. It's gonna be hard, but it isn't impossible. Once a big enough group gets past that line, it'll get easier for the rest of us to cross it as well (assuming no unnecessary lines get drawn in the doing so)

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[–] Nurse_Robot@lemmy.world 40 points 3 months ago (25 children)

Hard disagree. The amount of money and energy that has gone into manipulation and corporate lobbying has ensured that most people are brainwashed without ever knowing it. It's NOT the people's fault, it's the ultra weathy

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[–] Taldan@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

I don't disagree with that sentiment, but I would assert the people still have the ability to stop the untra-wealthy, and the idea we're helpless bystanders only serves the ultra-wealthy

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[–] Signtist@bookwyr.me 2 points 3 months ago

I remember reading a book as a kid that was set in the 1800's, and there was a kid who got an apple for his birthday and was so happy because it was the most delicious thing he'd ever eaten. I remember thinking at the time that I was lucky to have candy and other modern treats.

Now I think all those flashy products are part of the problem, and I instead try to view fruit as being a special treat I'm fortunate to be able to enjoy, like the boy from the book. There are still plenty of unethical things surrounding fruit of course, but at least I'm consuming less manufactured corporate crap.

We can't combat capitalism itself just by making changes to our habits, since the vast majority of people will still keep on consuming without a care, but we can at least distance ourselves from it by choosing less manufactured things. That way it should be easier to wean ourselves off of all the various products we're accustomed to having that will go away if we ever do manage to combat capitalism.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip -11 points 3 months ago (18 children)

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[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (8 children)

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/036/647/Screen_Shot_2021-03-01_at_2.28.39_PM.jpg

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[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago (5 children)

you are dismissing talk of holding actual problems accountable, to focus on inconsequential individual accountability, specifically using the “but you have are using an iphone, i am very smart” argument to not actually have to argue a point. you have been consistently dishonest in your messaging and it shows.

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[–] jafra@slrpnk.net 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Thanks for dismanteling his argumentation and putting it into context so well :)

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[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

because our buying habits are shaped by necessity and availability. to argue that the individual needs to change would require agreement to the degree of millions of people all at once, who have the privilege of choice make a substantial change, and even then the systems in place would defend itself from this change. in a discussion about needing to hold corporations and systems accountable, you argue for the responsibility of the individual, a concept that uses the most effort for the smallest gain, if any.

the concept of the free market is and has always been bull shit. the free market ideology requires the consumer to have: 1. maximal choice, 2. maximal and complete knowlege of every facet of a product (a. it’s ecological cost, b. it’s social cost, c. it’s manufacture, d. it’s transport, e. its storage, f. it’s operational harm ect. ) and every facet of every other option to compare. as well as truth in marketing which is antithetical to marketing itself.

in a discussion about the need to hold the system accountable, attempting to narrow it to the individual is a distraction to progress

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[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 3 months ago

purchases don't cause production.

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[–] jafra@slrpnk.net 3 points 3 months ago

👍

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[–] athatet@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 months ago

This is literally the ‘we live in a society, curious’ meme.

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[–] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

So what then? You are here, clearly you are participating as well. There is no ethical consumption here. I doubt the rocks you're throwing are thrown from somewhere safe when they inevitably get thrown back.

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[–] hirihit640@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The point is that it's your choice where to make sacrifices for the causes you believe in. Everybody already knows that fossil fuels cause pollution, this is not some big secret. People don't just get to hide behind "brainwashing" as a defense.

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[–] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

Yeah I think everyone gets that, but what then? We can acknowledge that the path of least resistance is destructive, while also acknowledging that some folks will be on that path through no fault of their own, and the rest of us are heavily incentivized to follow that path. It's far more efficient to try and fix the system routing the paths, than to individually change everyone's behavior en masse.

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[–] hirihit640@sh.itjust.works -2 points 3 months ago

To clarify, I'm all for fossil fuel regulation. The fossil fuel industry is different from most in that it has huge externalities, and those can only be controlled via regulation (as explained by Tragedy of the Commons). However, what I'm saying is that personal responsibility is still important. In fact, in a democracy it's basically all that matters. Whether you vote for public policy or you vote with your wallet, both have the power to affect change.

Changing the system and rerouting the paths and forcing everybody to follow, sounds nice in theory. And in this case I do agree that some regulation is necessary. However changing the system can end up enormously good and also enormously bad. It has both incredible power and risk. The problem is that nobody agrees on how to change it. Every few years the group in power changes, and reverses the policies created by the opposing group. I am not confident that this is as efficient as you say it is.

What I don't like about resorting to regulation, is that it's all or nothing. The policy passes or it doesn't. The free market is much more flexible. If 20% of people vote with their wallet, that wouldn't have been enough to get a policy to pass, but it sure is enough to get an industry to re-think their strategy and try to re-capture that 20%.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

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[–] fxdave@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

You want the people fight for the better. That's I think noble. But at the same time you argue against that the enemy is the government, and you put the blame on ordinary people instead. So you want people to fight themselves. I want people to fight the government. Law is the solution for many of these issues. E.g.: It's not big pollution vs small pollution, I'd like NO pollution.

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[–] Taldan@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago

Battery was produced in South Korea. Can you substantiate your claim South Korea is employing slave and child labor? Ensure you have a source substantiating both

I find child labor unlikely, but plausible, but slave labor in South Korean battery factories? I doubt it

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[+] hirihit640@sh.itjust.works -10 points 3 months ago (3 children)

this idea of "brainwashing" is a convenient way to dodge personal responsibility. Next time I think about returning the shopping cart I'll remember I'm "brainwashed" and leave it in the middle of the parking lot. I guess the US people who voted for Trump, are blameless because propaganda exists. I guess the people who use AI tools to write code or make art, are blameless because advertising exists.

We're on lemmy right now because we chose to be on it. It doesn't take an ultra wealthy person to do that.

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[–] Nurse_Robot@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I'm not wasting any more energy on you. Have fun being cynical

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[+] hirihit640@sh.itjust.works -7 points 3 months ago (1 child)

You're the one being cynical, telling people they don't have personal responsibility

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[–] some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago*

Image macro of scarecrow from the wizard of oz with text: "hey look! / a strawman"

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago (12 children)

consumers are killing the planet

Consumers have no control over the availability of the things they purchase.

Hiding behind this idea that a society’s functions are dictated by just the ultra wealthy and corporations is just wrong

It's empirically proven.

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[–] Sphks@jlai.lu 0 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

Consumers have no control over the availability of the things they purchase.

Come on. That's denialism. Let's start by not eating beef nor lamb anymore. You've got a lot of choices : poultry, pork, fish, veganism, etc. Beef meat is producing plenty of carbon emission.

https://assets-global.website-files.com/61642bed5d6a8ae19539536c/6236d060438100394aa7a7e1_nhl1.jpg

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[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago

id love to see the underlying data that produced that graph

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

That’s denialism.

That's capitalism. The consumer has no democratic input into the economic process.

Let’s start by not eating beef nor lamb anymore.

Way ahead of you.

Of course, most meat produced in the US has historically been exported. Far more effective than individualist efforts at Veganism has been the Trump trade war with China. Far more effective than individual consumerism has been drought induced climate change.

Beef meat is producing plenty of carbon emission.

Cattle inventory has been on the decline since 1979 fully independent of cattle demand.

The cost per head has been rising. Beef share of the market is being priced out whether you eat it or not.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip -1 points 3 months ago (8 children)

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[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Through the private ownership over the means of production which they leverage against the proletariat through the commodification of community goods and resources in order to coerce their labor of which they then profit off in a cruel and oppressive cycle of forced dependency which is maintained through the state.

This is like Leftism 101.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip -2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

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[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

By organizing to take back the means of production and revolutionize the system. Not uselessly deny yourself simple pleasures to feel morally superior to others by buying into the capitalist propaganda which shifts blame onto the consumer and away from the owners of production.

It's literally Leftism 101 and you're failing.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

How is blaming yourself and strangers on the internet going? Have you succeeded in no longer causing global destruction? I hope so.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago*

Your purchases have no impact, eh?

Not under the profit motive, no. Industries monopolize. Territory is enclosed. Goods and services are enahittified. None of that is a consequence of consumer demand.

Where do the ultra wealthy get there wealth again,

The violent seizure of primitive and industrial capital from the working class.

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[–] athatet@lemmy.zip 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

They get their wealth by stealing it from the workers.

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[–] Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Hard disagree. But feel free to tell me how your attempt of stopping to fund all of that goes, surely you know how to do that without joining the Amish and being on the run from your countries' tax agency.

You can't even realistically avoid Nestlé and all its smaller brands (way too many). Stop blame the fucking people for the mess of the different power structures we were all born in, it's nobodies fault but those in charge of those systems. Which is not us, systemically. Nobody is "funding" this crap, everyone's forced into it. Welcome to fucking capitalism.

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[+] bloogoose@lemmy.zip -2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

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[–] village604@adultswim.fan 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

The system has been rigged so people can't afford to not consume the products.

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[–] Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Exactly.

Food, shelter, health, social interactions, mobility, now "intelligence" (well, a bad simulation of it). EVERYTHING has been capitalised. To believe anyone could change shit by just "consuming differently" is very much stuck in the same ideology that created this disaster.

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[–] LwL@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

Is anyone here aware of the concept that you can both take some personal responsibility and attempt to change the system?

Changing the system sufficiently WOULD result in many of the changes people could make on their own already. You don't have to be the perfect sustainable human being in a society that doesn't care. You also don't have to be the person driving 3km to work in a car instead of using the perfectly fine public transport or bicycle infrastructure. There's a middle ground.

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[–] Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 3 months ago

Nobody said you shouldn't act responsible within your abilities, just that the system won't be repaired by individuals consuming differently in any way (Big corpos would just adapt to extract your money in a new way). Consumers can't do jack shit about the greater economical structures at play except voting, and, well… apparently that also doesn't do enough.

Blaming consumers and everyones habits is quite literally propaganda of oil companies.

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 3 months ago (5 children)

They’re rich and powerful because we the people make them so.

Fuck off with this bullshit "we". I didn't make any of these people rich or powerful. In fact their violent control of capital is exactly what's destroying humanity and the planet.

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