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PM Carney says Conservative MP Jeneroux crossing the floor to the Liberals (www.ctvnews.ca)
submitted 8 months ago by to c/canada@lemmy.ca
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[–] 1 point 8 months ago (10 children)

What’d they do to nuke themselves? The only complaints are “they don’t do anything” even they did a lot even just as the other member of a coalition government during the Liberal’s last run, and people also say they aren’t charismatic enough but I never once got the feeling that Trudeau was particulary charismatic and we just elected a boring banker who is even more boring now. Why the double standard all the time? Why do they need to be 100% perfect just to still get thrown aside but the Liberals get to be all kinda of fucked and we still consider them some kind of “default” party?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    What’d they do to nuke themselves?

    by effectively folding themselves into the Liberal Party and by infighting like incompetant children.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (8 children)

    The fuck are you talking about? They formed a coalition so they could represent their constituents and force the Liberal party to be at least somewhat useful. That’s what governments should be and it’s why minority governments are such a good thing. If you hate the Liberals so much that you don’t want the NDP near them then what the hell is your real position trying to claim we shouldn’t be voting for the NDP and then, I imagine, should be voting for the Liberals?

    And then they get in trouble for working with the Liberals and they get in trouble for not being a homogenous blob, too? You don’t have a real stance, your brain is fucking mush, and nothing you’re saying is backed by any kind of true critical thought. Embarrassing.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (7 children)

    I'm almost afraid to help take their side, because I agree that the NDP did this to themselves with the infighting. Now before you go telling me that my brain is mush, let me try and explain why people voted ABC this last election.

    They held on to Singh too long, he wasn't drawing people in to the party. Say what you will but Polievres attacks at him driving a Maserati was successful at having people I know that support NDP questioning why a rich lawyer was running the party.

    There are also the other end of the NDP fan spectrum that I know from my time in construction, the types that used to see them as the labour party. They have absolutely lost that title on Ontario to the Conservative party, and have instead been positioned as the "human rights" party. Everyone who used to support the NDP on that front got tired of hearing about Gaza over the election cycle, and didn't feel the NDP should be as vocal about that as they were.

    Then there was the TFW/immigration support they went heavy on during the election, when all polling was showing the unpopularity of those systems, and wanting the numbers to be lessened. The NDP used to be against the TFW program, and it was positioned very successfully that they were supporting of it this last election.

    You talk about how they formed the coalition to get things to work, I agree, that was the right move to get Pharmacare. But all that did was position the Liberals as a party willing to make those changes, and in the past election cycle, there was little chance voters would give up a party willing to do that for the Conservatives.

    Now the fear should be who will lead them next. I watched the NDP leadership debate last night. There aren't really any people running that have charisma and the ability to get people behind their cause. I think we'll see the NDP suffer for another election cycle or two federally.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (6 children)

    Ok, so putting aside mush comments, let’s talk about those issues.

    Singh was around a long time. Could he have been better? I won’t say no. But why would people who question that turn towards a banker who campaigned under the banner of a center-right party?

    Human rights and labour support are the same thing. You cannot have one without the other, they are deeply intertwined. The conservatives only have the branding of labour and only if you let them say it. In Ontario, with Doug Ford, how is a rich nepo baby who commits oodles of white-collar crime, spends too much time trying to be the mayor of Toronto, and not doing good things for the working folk the guy who gets to be considered working class?

    I have no comment on the immigration thing.

    The only reason I would ever consider that excuse for the coalition being a bad idea is the absolutely embarrassingly high levels of political ignorance we in Canada are capable of.

    I’ve gotta watch the debate, it’s on my list of things to do, but honestly can we just drop the whole charisma angle? We’re talking about why progressive voters would vote for the Liberals and you cannot tell me that Carney was Captain Charisma. Even today I just see a horribly beige, empty suit who’s just a puppet for allowing provate companies and the US to run roughshod over us. He’s painfully forgettable, except that we will be feeling all the weakened environmental protections deeply for a very long time, so drop the “charisma” bullshit. Besides, PP was being dweeby enough that my own, historically conservative, father voted directly against him(I’m from Ottawa) and they still got votes. Progressives are supposed to be better than this and if we need someone to show up with purotechnics in order to be energized to do the right thing then that’s beyond sad.

    It all comes back to the idea that there is no reason you can give that could not be thrown directly back, and harder, at the Liberals and that I’m speaking directly to all the people who stomped all over our progressive option just to elect an obvious right-wing grifter. The Liberals just need to show up and they get treated like the defauly but the NDP need to do a whole song and dance just to continue to be ignored? And you think that makes sense?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (5 children)

    The problem is that with all of your counter points, you keep talking about "reason". This is politics, Doug Ford wouldn't still be in charge if people voted on reason. You keep making the same problem that the NDP has been making in expecting the whole population to use reason and think rationally as well. They don't, and you and the rest of the party leadership need to realize that.

    The charisma thing is a real consideration, because the NDP have proven they need that to be able to get ahead of the other two parties. Everyone has spoken to Jacks charisma being the one thing that got the NDP as close as they've been, but now you are telling me that charisma isn't important? Especially when they're trying to rebuild the party? I'm sorry but we will be in complete disagreement on that one. Pierre doesn't need charisma, he's at the head of the other party that won't raise taxes in the masses, so hence not being in the NDPs tough spot.

    I tried using the term "Human Rights" because that's what I believe them to be, but a lot of the people I was referring to, would call them "identity politics". I'm sorry to say it, because I'd rather acceptance be the default as well, but people who would otherwise support the NDP didn't this election cycle due to all of the noise around identity politics. I'm also from Ottawa, so I'm sure you know the Lanark county types I'm referring to, I grew up around them.

    It's just an uphill battle to rebuild a party, and I'm not sure how the leadership hopefuls will manage to pull it off. My fingers are crossed for them, I've always been an NDP supporter but want to feel like I'm not just throwing my vote in the trash. Even in my "always NDP" riding it went red last time. I just want to see them get back to the basics (hence Ashton being my hopeful til the AI thing)

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    I’m literally telling you that I’m pissed because people do not do the reasonable thing. I am well aware that reason is hard to come by and I am saying that right now. You are deliberately missing the point to try to justify your bad decisions and shitty opinions and I’m really not here for that kind of poor behaviour.

    “My fingers are crossed for them” well you’re gunna have to do more than that if you want that to be anything more than a few empty words that are only even there so that you can pretend as if you’re being polite. Considering how hard you’re trying to justify the Liberals, though, maybe genuine effort is not something you really understand.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Dude I can't control the masses, I don't know what you want me to do?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    I never asked you to do anything, you just showed up and started making excuses.

    Also, you are the masses, and so am I. You can’t just wait for things to be better to start making progress, you have to put the effort in before it’s easy. I don’t vote for the NDP because I think they’re gunna win in the next election, I vote for them because they align the most with my views and because if I jump ship on them now then how will they ever have the support to be better later? How could we change public opinion on their electability by broadcasting a message that would say that we don’t believe they’re electable?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Dude, I've worked on Hardens campaign here in Ottawa. I know the actual challenges to reaching out to the masses, and while jaded, I still work on the actual problems, and try and reach out. It's still just a fact of the matter that a large amount of the voting base is afraid to put the vote behind the NDP out of fear of the Conservatives.

    You're spouting a lot of platitudes on here, which I can appreciate being fired up about, but you're going at it in a completely aggressive and ineffective way. Going after people in our own party is a terrible use of your own time, and not constructive at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    I appreciate that, but I have very clearly laid out that I’m pissed off at the people who claim to be progressive but who keep voting for a party which continually moves rightward. I’m pissed off because, well before you showed up to my comments here, I was talking about how if we want to see progress we need to actually support that progress with hard numbers. I very clearly explained that the reason I’m mad is because people think they’re voting for an imperfect center-left party to save themselves from the Conservatives but if they so afraid then they may want to know that the Liberals are doing a lot of the same shit. I don’t give a fuck about their fear because that excuse is worthless in this context.

    You just wandered in telling me that I’m wrong and then went off about a bunch of shit I responded to with clear answers. I’m not stupifd, I’m explaining why I’m frustrated and I can do that without needing to do all the emotional labour to make people comfortable with their incredibly poor, ill-informed choices.

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