▲ 497 ▼ Just baffling (lemmy.ml) submitted 1 year ago by jackeroni@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 138 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 48 points 1 year ago (74 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 74 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as "liberal" despite this internationally not being the norm at all. Here's a definition of liberalism: Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties. Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc... A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade. Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia's liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren't very influential w.r.t. party policy because it's such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party. Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they've come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They've remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here's the "political compass" for the Netherlands for example: Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it's interesting to note here that the PVV (the "far-right" party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn't even all that far right. Their economic policies aren't actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there's certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis. Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don't like being lumped in with liberals, because they don't focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it. You're not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals "left-wing", but it's a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago (31 children) Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. This is a very introductory overview to liberalism: Taimur Rahman - Introduction to classical liberalism - John Locke The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter history, but you'd have to read many more foundational texts before that one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (5 children) Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] reagansrottencorpse@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (7 children) We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (6 replies) [–] Asafum@feddit.nl 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) It's a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say "left" and "right" we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold. Republicans are much more "conservative" (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the "left" as they aren't as conservative and therefore they are "to the left" of Republicans. If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don't fit there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] folaht@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberals are rightwing. There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there's a small resurgance with Mamdani. But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. Canada's two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that. Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party). Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago You're mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (5 children) No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Please define liberalism for me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (21 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (20 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as "liberal" despite this internationally not being the norm at all. Here's a definition of liberalism: Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties. Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc... A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade. Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia's liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren't very influential w.r.t. party policy because it's such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party. Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they've come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They've remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here's the "political compass" for the Netherlands for example: Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it's interesting to note here that the PVV (the "far-right" party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn't even all that far right. Their economic policies aren't actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there's certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis. Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don't like being lumped in with liberals, because they don't focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it. You're not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals "left-wing", but it's a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago (31 children) Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. This is a very introductory overview to liberalism: Taimur Rahman - Introduction to classical liberalism - John Locke The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter history, but you'd have to read many more foundational texts before that one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (5 children) Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] reagansrottencorpse@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (7 children) We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (6 replies) [–] Asafum@feddit.nl 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) It's a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say "left" and "right" we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold. Republicans are much more "conservative" (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the "left" as they aren't as conservative and therefore they are "to the left" of Republicans. If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don't fit there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] folaht@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberals are rightwing. There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there's a small resurgance with Mamdani. But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. Canada's two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that. Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party). Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago You're mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (5 children) No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Please define liberalism for me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as "liberal" despite this internationally not being the norm at all. Here's a definition of liberalism: Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties. Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc... A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade. Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia's liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren't very influential w.r.t. party policy because it's such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party. Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they've come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They've remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here's the "political compass" for the Netherlands for example: Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it's interesting to note here that the PVV (the "far-right" party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn't even all that far right. Their economic policies aren't actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there's certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis. Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don't like being lumped in with liberals, because they don't focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it. You're not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals "left-wing", but it's a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as "liberal" despite this internationally not being the norm at all. Here's a definition of liberalism: Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties. Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc... A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade. Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia's liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren't very influential w.r.t. party policy because it's such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party. Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they've come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They've remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here's the "political compass" for the Netherlands for example: Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it's interesting to note here that the PVV (the "far-right" party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn't even all that far right. Their economic policies aren't actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there's certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis. Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don't like being lumped in with liberals, because they don't focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it. You're not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals "left-wing", but it's a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) Melvin, you should listen to Cowbee. You're misinformed, but don't have to stay that way. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as "liberal" despite this internationally not being the norm at all. Here's a definition of liberalism: Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties. Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc... A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade. Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia's liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren't very influential w.r.t. party policy because it's such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party. Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they've come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They've remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here's the "political compass" for the Netherlands for example: Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it's interesting to note here that the PVV (the "far-right" party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn't even all that far right. Their economic policies aren't actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there's certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis. Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don't like being lumped in with liberals, because they don't focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it. You're not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals "left-wing", but it's a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago (31 children) Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. This is a very introductory overview to liberalism: Taimur Rahman - Introduction to classical liberalism - John Locke The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter history, but you'd have to read many more foundational texts before that one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (5 children) Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] reagansrottencorpse@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (7 children) We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (6 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. This is a very introductory overview to liberalism: Taimur Rahman - Introduction to classical liberalism - John Locke The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter history, but you'd have to read many more foundational texts before that one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (5 children) Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] reagansrottencorpse@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (7 children) We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. This is a very introductory overview to liberalism: Taimur Rahman - Introduction to classical liberalism - John Locke The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter history, but you'd have to read many more foundational texts before that one. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 child) How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s? Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can't. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] merdaverse@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago (1 child) the right to private property Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you're about 150 years late in defining liberalism as "the left" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (5 children) Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent
[–] IttihadChe@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (2 children) This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly "freedom from the government" whatever that means(it's not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it's not) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago most nations are still debating freedom from the government citation needed permalink fedilink source parent
[–] reagansrottencorpse@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (7 children) We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (3 children) You are factually incorrect. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 child) we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mathemachristian@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago The "other group labelling themselves socialist" is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I'm curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Asafum@feddit.nl 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) It's a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say "left" and "right" we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold. Republicans are much more "conservative" (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the "left" as they aren't as conservative and therefore they are "to the left" of Republicans. If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don't fit there. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] folaht@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago (4 children) Liberals are rightwing. There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there's a small resurgance with Mamdani. But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. Canada's two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that. Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party). Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago You're mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. Canada's two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that. Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party). Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child) Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics. We're against liberalism as a whole because it's the ideology that justifies capitalism. We're against social liberals because they're seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers. Canada's two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that. Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party). Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago You're mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago You're mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[+] umbrella@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (5 children) No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Please define liberalism for me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Please define liberalism for me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (4 children) Please define liberalism for me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (3 children) Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (2 children) Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) Economics is at the base of the political super structure. Edit: I suggest you read this: https://archive.org/details/ComManifesto/page/n3/mode/1up The whole split between liberals and socialists was based entirely on economics. There is a reason why Karl Marx wrote a whole book on economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Thebigguy@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) Lol no I’m describing the difference between socialists and liberals. Socialists of all stripes were anti capitalist and rooted in working class movements and anti capitlism. Marx had the most robust and scientific understanding of the liberal political order. Some edits for clarity and another edit: All socialists understood that they had to burn the liberal order to the ground if they wanted to try gain the type of freedom that they were looking for. Also most anarchists and socialists I have met have never had any problem with what I said about economics being the base of the political super structure what they usually disagree on is strategy and how to organise a society once the liberal order has been abolished. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workingmen%27s_Association permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (21 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (20 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (21 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (20 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (20 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago* (20 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies) [–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (15 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (14 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (4 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago I think the point of diminishing returns was 👈 back there somewhere. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies)
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (6 children) There was growing wealth inequality, while at the same time all boats were rising. But now wealth inequality is shrinking, and all boats are still rising. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies)
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 child) The Iranian government has a very heavy hand in that economy and economic freedoms don’t exist like they do in capitalust economies. Many of us are socialists, and we don’t take issue with a state constraining the capitalist class’ economic freedom. If you live in a neoliberal hellscape like most of us, you ought to want it more constrained, too. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)