you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 93 points 10 months ago (67 children)

In before Whataboutism comments stating things Harris would have done equally or worse to excuse not preventing Trump during the election.

But let's be clear: if you didn't prevent Trump during the election you are accountable for what is happening now.

  • source
  • hideshow 67 child comments
  • [–] 38 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    And the administration that didn’t put a single one of these people in jail? Even after the fascists released a document that was basically titled “We’re Gonna Do a Fascism in 2025”?

    Might that administration be… a little more accountable than the voters they failed to convince?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 55 points 10 months ago (42 children)

    Harris would have prevented Trump if she actually ran a campaign in line with her voters values.

    I choose to blame the ones that are actually in charge of the party. Blaming nameless voters is scapegoating. The party needs to change, we need to demand it instead of giving them an easy excuse.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 42 child comments
  • [–] 27 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)

    It was literally Hitler or not Hitler. That should've been the only campaign they needed to run. We all saw what happened during his first term and we all knew what he was planning for his second.

    That should've been all the information needed and anyone who ignored that information is directly to blame for all of this.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    It should have been that, but Harris was campaigning heavily to the center and the center leaning right.

    Fuck, they basically muzzled Tim Walz during the campaign. Did you notice how he was no longer allowed to call MAGA weird? I sure did.

    Then there was the fact that Harris had to run on Biden's full platform. I know that she personally disagreed with parts, the unpopular parts. She was never really allowed to say it during the campaign.

    But really, I mostly blame that little shit Crooks, you either get it right, or you don't do it at all. Trump used that survival to galvanize his base, and that's what an election needs to be in this divided world. Don't worry about the other side. We live in different realities and, they don't often intersect. You have to focus completely on your own base as much as possible. They're the one who will actually vote, if you can get them to care enough to do so.

    Harris didn't do that. And that's why she lost.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    She lost because not enough people voted for her. How people interpreted her vibe or whatever is secondary.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Not enough people voted for her, because of how people interpreted her vibe. That's the point. You campaign to your base, or not at all.

    Never try to reach across the aisle, it doesn't work and drives away the base.

    Look at the progressive candidates that have recently won by landslides. They campaigned to the base.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Progressives are consistently more popular in red states than centrist Democrats. I'm living in a deep red state in a rural area and have all my life. I talk to mouth-foaming reactionaries on a regular basis. The difference in our conversations about people like Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Kamala Harris versus people like Bernie Sanders, Zohran Mamdani, and AOC is extremely stark. They never have anything good to say about the former, but always preface their disapproval of the latter with "I agree with some of the stuff they say about [insert progressive policy proposal here], but I don't think it's realistic / I don't agree on their 'woke' stuff."

    The centrist strategy of abandoning one's own values to reach across the aisle to them comes across to conservatives as dishonest and shady (and they're not wrong). They begrudgingly respect the progressive left for being uncompromising in their worldview, even if they disagree with it, and once you have someone's respect they are more likely to meaningfully engage with your arguments. That's how you change minds, and I've watched it happen on multiple occasions.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yup, and they literally still fucked it up lol

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    it was rigged against her, the voter machines have been found to have been manipulated through starlink, plus many red states stopped counting the moment they were in the lead. the DNC wernt willing to fight fraud at all, it makes them spinelesa nd complicit.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago* (14 children)

    It's not scapegoating to state the simple fact that when people make a choice, they are responsible for it. Like the millions who voted for Trump, Stein, or stayed the fuck home. You can blame shitty campaigns too but I'm sick and tired of hearing how the voters are fucking blameless. Fuck that. Trump wouldn't have ever even been on the ballot if our populace wasn't dumber than a fucking brick. I am going to blame these dipshits and evil fucks for their actions and I absolutely should blame them.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    It's not scapegoating to state the simple fact that when people make a choice, they are responsible for it.

    Like letting off your war criminals and putting them on pedestals? Seems like an snowball effect to allow your presidents to do anything they please?

    Seems like you're more responsible than you think for the state of things.

    Try to make your presidents liable for their actions next time so you don't have to whine about it on the internet when you don't get your way?

    We're sick and tired of it too.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [+] -7 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    It's not whataboutism to detail the list of failures from democrats that built the current situation we are in. They are weak party that offers little and provides less, and they fail to win much of anything because of it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    It is always whataboutism to try to shift the conversation to something you think you can argue for more easily.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Definitionally, talking about two causally linked things is not whataboutism. You could argue it's shifting blame, and I would still disagree, but at least it would be coherent.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    It is a bit academic at this point. I just hoped that liberals contend with the reality that you have to align with your voters, rather than always trying to set blame on the millions that stay politically disaffected.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    You are clueless. And you literally commented about 20 times after this so far. Latest of which is you lying your ass off and pretending Harris would be doing basically the same shit as trump with ice. Laughably false. Go away.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yep which is why we need to stop hearing about Harris.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    if she actually ran a campaign in line with her voters values.

    Yes. She was impure. Therefore we had to cast her out.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I won't pat someone on the back who willingly covered themselves in filth and drove everyone away.

    How hard is it to just tell Israel to fuck off. They couldn't even pretend for a few months. Not to mention everything else (billionaires, healthcare, etc). Their whole campaign was basically a shrug with a trite "well what else are you going to do, we are all you have suckers".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [+] -8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Sorry they didn't tune the entirety of their election platform to your personal view of the world.

    Anyway, you got what you wanted, why are you still bitching over a year later?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    I wanted anyone but Trump, that's why I still voted for Harris. I didn't get what I wanted because supporting genocide and the 1% was more important to her and her party then what I wanted.

    It's also telling the language you use. Being against genocide is just a personal view that can be ignored? I guess with you being pro-Israel, the entire election was a win-win situation for you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (19 children)

    assigning blame is one thing and i dont think it matters at this point tbh but anyone who is firmly in the both parties/candidates are the same isnt fully there mentally. They can both be bad mind you but bad and fuck-off-terrible-WWIII-ARMAGEDDON are not the same MO.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 19 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (18 children)

    People who support genocide are there mentally?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (17 children)

    Definitely not but not condemning hard enough and actively getting a boner while thinking about all the nice real estate that is gonna be freed up after killing and displacing everyone is still different. I would just like to identify the lesser evil, choose the lesser evil, get the lesser evil and then criticize it and fight it until we can get an even lesser evil. Do that a few times and u might eventually arrive at something worth being called good.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (16 children)

    If Trump was doing it for real estate, what was Biden doing it for? Money? Blackmail? Just for fun?

    not condemning hard enough

    Fyi, they weren't condemning them at all, not even a little. They actively enabled.

    Is excusing and shrugging off genocide the lesser evil for you right now? How hard is it to say that the dems were in the wrong? They literally need to hear it and loudly.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    Fyi, they weren't condemning them at all, not even a little. They actively enabled.

    This is a complete lie. If you're not aware of it, you're an idiot. But you're not an idiot, are you. You know very well you're telling a gross lie to advance your narrative.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (14 children)

    They funded it and sent weapons while it was happening. They never once condemned it.

    For anyone wondering, Optional already has had many comment removed for genocide denial. He is actively on the side of Israel.

    Edit: They did condemn it, I guess it was hard to hear over all the weapon packages they were sending at the same time, and all the "Israel has a right to defend itself". Good thing optional had a list of links ready.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (12 children)
  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Seems kind of hollow when one of his last actions as president was to send them 8 billion dollars worth of weapons.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/biden-administration-notifies-congress-of-planned-8-billion-weapons-sale-to-israel

    January 4th 2025, that was what he was worried about. What a joke.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    You don't need to be a plumber to know that helping kill civilians is a bad way to win an election.

    Are you ready to dispute the fact that they sent billions of dollars worth of missiles while the genocide was going on?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    NO i didn’t approve of the sale of offensive weapons to Israel and yes it was dead stupid of Biden to live in the 1980’s and for Harris to not disavow that position loudly.

    If you know it's their fault, why pivot the blame to others. Why defend them everytime. They won't change if they don't have to, you are enabling them.

    Trump didn't deserve to win and we don't deserve to have him up there, but I'm not going to applaud the idiots who tried their hardest to lose. Being not as bad doesn't cut it anymore, they need to be good enough to win. They need to do better and I plan on holding them to it (at least in spirit) instead of pointing fingers at everyone else.

    I see blaming voters as class warfare tbh. It's like massive companies telling us the foreign workers are to blame instead of the ones making the decisions.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I just see it differently. I’ll argue the former point after the election, but in the end not doing everything possible to defeat trump is an outrageous dereliction of duty. Your one-issue campaign is not the most important one, polling-wise, though it is the most important one in these kinds of threads.

    So no I don’t blame them for running a flawed campaign - they’re all flawed. I do blame the shithouse rats that crawl out here to pretend only they know how a national campaign and administration (and foreign policy) works. Because that’s not only stupid bullshit, it actively hurts the outcome, and it’s stupid bullshit.

    And we’ll see it again in September. Watch. The so-called-left here will be out with bullshit reasons why we shouldn’t vote for Democrats in the midterms and then immediately pivot to how Democrats never get any legislation passed. It’s fucking idiocy in full force.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    All of this was empty words, Biden was clearly a firm Zionist and it made him willfully blind to the Palestinian Genocide to the point that he would only scold Netanyahu, not do anything to stop it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    But let’s be clear: if you didn’t prevent Trump during the election you are accountable for what is happening now.

    Voting for Kamala would just delay the fascism by another 4 years of regular neoliberal decay and less overt imperialist genocide. I mean, I'd have voted for her too if I was in the US, but blaming people who didn't vote hard enough is counterproductive.

    You can't shame people into choosing the lesser evil neoliberalism again. And even if you did (kinda like what happened in 2020), it will just enable the dems to become even worse, because it shows them that they can win by pointing at trump, while increasingly doing the same shit he's doing (because it's ultimately beneficial for their donors).

    You need to build something which is not owned by the billionaires, which actually inspires people by promising and building real solutions, showing real improvements in their quality of life, and then they will show up.

    If you aren't part of PSL or some other socialist/communist/anarchist org trying to dismantle the oligarchy, you are not part of the solution. This is not to say you are to blame, the blame lies squarely on the ruling class deciding that fascism is worth it because it will increase the rate of profit, everything else be damned.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)