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[–] 62 points 11 months ago (83 children)

Facts people forget:

  • Assembling your own Steam Machine with similar parts will cost around 800
  • Even if you assembled it yourself you would be missing features, such as cec, wake by controller, sleep mid game, etc. LTT will try to build one, it will be interesting to see what they come up with, but I'm 90% it won't have feature parity.
  • There's lots of engineering gone into this machine, they're way more compact, less power hungry and more quiet than anything you can build yourself.
  • Buying the same build as a prebuilt brings a premium and costs around 1000
  • Valve purchases stuff in scale so they can diminish their margin and could potentially sell it cheaper than prebuilts, and possibly cheaper than building it yourself.
  • Consoles are sold at a loss, and they recover it with games because the platform is closed.
  • The Steam Machine is not closed, they can't be sure they're getting game purchases, because people might be buying this to be their work computer. So they have to price it as a PC, with margin on hardware, not promise of future returns.
  • Price might fluctuate between now and announcement, RAM prices are going crazy nowadays.

With all of that being said, it seems to me it's very likely it will be around 800 but less than 1000. For people saying you can build one for that price yourself, sure, go ahead, you'll have a huge, power hungry loud box, without the same features and you would have saved only a small fraction of the value by having to assemble everything yourself.

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    Also people who like to DIY seem to forget that a lot of people want a turn-key solution, I even dare to say that most people prefer a ready made solution. Even a lot of people who work in tech when they get home want a just work solution.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    And a lot of the prebuilts have a ton of cut corners. A well put-together machine that people can trust to play their games at a base performance could be great for those who don't want or can't DIY.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    PCs suffer from massive hardware fragmentation. It's about time someone made a standardized PC.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Eh, I dont want steam machine becoming a standardized PC.

    having CPU and GPU baked into the board and unchangable will just increase e-waste cause it will age out much faster than a PC which you could, 3-4 years down the line, max out the CPU in, throw more ram into, or upgrade teh GPU, to keep it relevant for another 4+ years

    It serves its niche purpose, but it should not become standard.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    I feel the standardization they mean is in the spec and not the specific build. Like, a lot of games are terrible optimized, not only on runtime but also in space needed, it is getting out of hand. But if you have to target a popular machine like steam deck or the steam machine that is not super high-end and have lower capacity storage you have no option but to put some attention on optimizing you game at least a little.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago*

    Except that just means they'd optimize for that specific hardware in the steam machine and still run like shit on anything else.

    Power wise, they said the steam machine is equivalent to what 70% of the steam users already have and use. If developers arent already optimizing for that specific block, then one more machine out of thousands wont encourage it.

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  • Nail On The Head.

    I work in tech. I also have terrible dexterity. While I love my gaming PC, I dread upgrades or things going wrong. I hate applying thermal paste, replacing a motherboard, etc. I’d gladly pay “prebuilt” prices for something from a company I can “trust” (as far as corporations can be trusted).

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    Yup, I love DIY, had tons of fun building my wife's mini-itx gaming rig, my NAS and even my desktop (although it was the boring one of the three since it's just standard). I love poking on my system, trying out stuff, etc. But I bought a Deck and my only mod was getting EmuDeck in it, it just works for what I want it to, and that's worth a lot to me, it allows me to pour my time on stuff I want to be building and just game on my gaming boxes.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (29 children)

    No, they couldn't, have you read about the PS3? They were a lot cheaper than building a similar system so several companies bought thousands to build clusters, I personally worked at a relatively small university that had a cluster made of dozens of PS3s, since each Playstation costed Sony around $200 my university on its own costed thousands to Sony, and I imagine every other university and some private companies did the same.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (27 children)

    Only after they closed their system, which they did because they were losing money to every single enterprise in the world who wanted a cluster and PS3 were the cheapest option.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (25 children)

    If it's sold at a loss like a console it would beat the price/performance of any other x86 chip on the market, which is why they can't sell it at a loss, ergo my point.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (13 children)

    Thry could absolutely do that. Valve makes a cut off every Steam game sold. If anything, it'd be MORE viable for them than any other console maker given the wider library

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (12 children)

    You're completely missing the point. People can buy steam machines and use them as a PC without ever opening steam, or worse, use them as servers or parts of a cluster. If Steam Machines were sold at a loss they would , by definition, be cheaper than equivalent hardware, so companies would buy 10k of them to put into a warehouse to run stuff because it would be cheaper than buying the same thing from other places. This is what happened to the PS3, non-blocked systems can't be sold at a loss because you can't guarantee that whoever is buying it will use them for your intended purpose.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (8 children)

    So? PCs have other uses outside gaming, you know?

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (7 children)

    If you're playing video games on PC, did you not read it?

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    Yes, but my whole point was that PCs have other uses, so Valve selling a PC at a loss can't recover the money with games because people won't necessarily play games on that machine. Saying "if you're playing games" to that point is like someone explaining to you why seatbelts are needed in cars and you replying with "if you never crash they're useless", like OF COURSE that if we enter your hypothetical example everything works, the whole point is about the disaster that would happen if that wasn't the case.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (5 children)

    I find it highly unlikely that those purchasing a steam machine aren't doing so with gaming in mind

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (4 children)

    Re-read my answer, if they were sold at a loss like you suggested it would be beneficial for companies to purchase them to be office, servers or anything, costing Valve money without bringing them any profit afterwards because those machines would be purchased without gaming in mind, only because they were the cheapest available option (since all of the others have some profit margin and steam machines would be sold at a loss).

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)

    They could do what many early tech companies did and offer a seperate price for business use if that becomes an problem

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, because business can't simply ask employees or random people to buy the machines, rebuy from them and still get them cheaper. Hell, they can even advertise they will be buying machines for 10% higher price and let random people offer it to them. It's an open platform, you can't prevent people from getting it. Selling the machines at a loss is a sure way to have Valve bleed money, just like it happened with the PlayStation 3 until they closed the system. I would rather the hardware costs a bit more so that the platform can remain open.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (1 child)

    @IzzyJ @Nibodhika I personally think, that if your are gaming on linux you should value valve alot for how much money they have put into the linux ecosystem and it's not bad to buy at their store. On the other hand there is alot of gaming happing outside of steam (including things which won't make it to steam).

    heretic showing epic store / gog and prime gaming

    showing itch io

    Showing lutris with humble / itch.io / ubisoft connect / amazon prime / battlenet and steam

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    I do absolutely celebrate the contributions they've made, Proton beats the shit out of every alternative and it's not even close. Black hole vs mouse levels of curbstomp

    I also think people with bad values should suffer for those values. I am an ideologue

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    . The reason so many people care is that there’s an opening in the console market for an affordable option

    The consoles are the affordable option.

    I fully understand that it sucks that this is the reality, but sucking doesn't make something less true.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    ...LTT will try to build one...

    Jay already tried. It was bigger, didn't have the custom OS, and cost $1700. He could have done better except he was part limited to what rhe Microcenter he was at had on hand. Doing a bunch or research and getting different parts would probably bring down the price.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    Buying the same build as a prebuilt brings a premium and costs around 1000

    For 1k you can get a 9600 9060XT 16gb system, which is waaaaaay more powerful, so this is quite an exaggeration.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    A prebuilt plug-and-play device? Can you share a link to that?

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    It's a lot more than that, it's:

    • Knowing what parts to buy, I don't think most average people can cite every piece in a desktop
    • Selecting parts that are compatible, try plug-and-play an AMD CPU on an Intel MOBO.
    • Selecting parts that fit the chassis you selected, unless you went with a full ATX that's a concern.

    Now that you bought the components:

    • Knowing to ground yourself before doing anything, currently I'm getting static shocks daily where I live, if I didn't know about this I could very easily fry a RAM by picking it up wrong.
    • Cable management is not easy, most cheaper chassis don't have enough or dedicated space for it.
    • Correct amount of thermal paste is something lots of people get wrong.
    • Some pieces require strength to lock in place, others break if you even look at them sideways.

    Now that you've assembled everything:

    • Installing OS
    • Installing drivers
    • Installing Steam
    • Depending on your OS and controller of choice pairing controller and getting it to work could be difficult

    I'm not saying that assembling a computer is hard, but is definitely far from plug-and-play, and not something I would recommend for someone without technical knowledge who just wants something to play games.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    That's the wording a lot of other people would use, I'd say. I wouldn't be able to put together a PC, and most people I know are like that. I have maybe two cousins that can. But we'd probably all agree that plug-and-play means that you buy something and it works just like that. For example, a refrigerator is likely plug and play, because you don't expect to have to put together the components to make it work. You just plug it in and it works.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    The answer I'm replying to suggested you can get a prebuilt with a 9600 for 1000, since they're replying to my point that a prebuilt with similar spec is 1000.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    This is the thing I'm replying to, emphasis on the prebuilt.

    Buying the same build as a prebuilt brings a premium and costs around 1000

    For 1k you can get a 9600 9060XT 16gb system, which is waaaaaay more powerful, so this is quite an exaggeration.

    But yeah, I don't think the machine will cost the same as a prebuilt, but that's the high end of the price range.

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (14 children)

    LTT will try to build one

    Time for another video of Linus failing to follow basic instructions and going out of his way to break the OS because Linux gaming bad

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, but to be fair that was a shitty thing the system did, anyone with experience would know not to do it, but honestly it should have never happened. On the other hand, Linus is a bit daft and lots of stuff blows over his head monumentally, in the same video where he said he would be building a Steam Machine he also couldn't seem to grasp that this is just a computer and people would see it as a prevuilt. In short I don't think he will acknowledge lots of the killer features in the Steam Machine just so he can claim his thing does the same. But at least it will be an interesting watch.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    It was known beforehand and was fixed already by the time he released his video, he just happened to luck out and encounter it during the short spam it existed.

    I disagree that he approached it as a complete idiot, he approached it as someone who knows what they're doing, when he definitely doesn't, and that was the issue. Anyone without technical know-how would have panicked at the system asking him to type "I know what I'm doing", and anyone with enough technical know-how would have paused at that and read the message carefully and moped the fuck out. He had enough knowledge to think he knew what he was doing, but not enough to actually do, and the boldness to think he knew better.

    That being said, I agree that there's plenty of other stuff to bash him for, and that was not a great example, lots of people would have found themselves in that same situation, and I don't think it's unfair to say the fuck up there was not entirely on his part.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    You are very far removed from a normal user then.

    Most people rarely read warnings or signs. They're used to needing to just click accept and move on. More than that, their entire experience thus far will have trained them to just type in the magic command line words and get it over with. This is what linux enthusiasts beat into them while pretending everything is a cake walk. "Don't trust anything" while simultaneously telling them to use this and that script, and copy this and that text into the terminal. Its not at all a wonder to imagine that behaviour.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (4 children)

    It wasn’t a standard accept/continue/yes prompt,

    Doesn't matter. This is an opinion that is 100% formed in an echo chamber where you are far removed from what a regular user would think going through this process. All of these prompts you think look different, to a normal person might as well be literally exactly the same. "I don't know what I am doing, but the program says to do the next thing, with some warning that probably doesnt matter because I'm not doing something hard or critically important".

    Of note:

    WARNING The following essential packages will be removed. This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you’re doing!

    That is a message that would not impede a regular user at all, or would completely stop them from using the OS.

    They're trying to install steam. Why would they have any reason to believe that whatever programs are mentioned matter, or think that this message matters when they're doing something that is in theory extremely simple?

    Plus most users wouldn’t need to use the terminal, he just happened to use the distro during the brief window that that bug existed.

    How does this negate the fact that the actions taken were reasonable and absolutely not the users fault? In fact, the fact that this was fixed and treated so urgently betrays what a flaw it was.

    As a Linux enthusiast I can definitely tell you I never encourage people to just type words in the magic box and get it over with, and always tell them to understand what they’re typing.

    Lets for the sake of not stating what I actually assume to be true take your word at face value.

    What you recommend is simply incompatible with the majority of people. They don't have the time or effort to devote into actually learning as much as you'd need to learn for this to actually be useful advice.

    A great amount of information must be completely skipped over and ignored to be proficient in a reasonable amount of time.

    I've used Linux at multiple jobs, and used it as my main desktop OS for more than a year. I know this to be true. For the average person to follow your advice, they'd need to have a firm grasp of BASH. Expecting people to learn even one scripting language, especially an old esoteric one with many gotchas and vestiges of its time is an absurd ask, so of course no one would listen to your advice as it is utterly unreasonable on its face, and completely incompatible with the level of user adoption people hope for.

    So then, there is the other advice, from people who are also elitists, but in a different way. They believe these people must be stupid to not figure out the problems on their own, and casually tell them to just RTFM or use X, Y or Z script with reckless abandon.

    Neither of these lead to anything remotely resembling the ease of use of operating systems these users will have come from, no matter how much Linux enthusiasts insist their weird edge cases where they feel those OSes are inferior mean that somehow, magically their opinions apply to the users they are appealing to.

    I have a lot more to say honestly, as I have certainly thought about this a lot, but by this point and given the excerpt I am replying to, I've learned to never expect good faith discussion, so I'm just limiting my losses by stopping here as I expect toxic positivity as a response.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)

    I agree with lots of what you're saying, this was a serious bug, it wasn't the user's fault, and users can't be expected to learn bash.

    My point is that the message tried to be as scary as possible, because if that message shows then something is about to uninstall critical components from the system, the bug here was that trying to install steam triggered that. I agree that it wasn't Linus fault, but I think that most users would stop at that message, he didn't because he thinks he knows what he's doing, but he doesn't, he's in that middle ground where he knows enough to be confidently wrong.

    Let me ask you, how would you have given that message in a way that would make people stop?, remember that the message is valid, the bug was installing steam doing that.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    I agree that it wasn’t Linus fault, but I think that most users would stop at that message, he didn’t because he thinks he knows what he’s doing, but he doesn’t, he’s in that middle ground where he knows enough to be confidently wrong.

    This is the part I disagree with.

    Even with my background as stated, similar things have happened to me over time with weird dependency nonsense with what should have been simple updates, not even installs. The types of things you just run, because you expect them to be tested as they are official updates by the team behind the OS.

    Luckily Tumbleweed Snapper snapshots saved me, but if I wasn't savvy, such experiences, while not normal, being semi annual or annual occurrences would absolutely break me as a user. In speaking with other users in relevant channels, I ascertain that my experiences aren't super uncommon, but it really did hammer home a point: People deep into linux really don't get how much they've learned to deal with and learned how to deal with.

    I think people have a hard time thinking that something that happened so casually and over time for them could be challenging, or imagining just how far they themselves had come or that they themselves are significantly different to the average user.

    I know the whole idea and how its used in pop culture is pretty much just pop science, but I think reverse dunning kruger is absolutely a good way to describe this. People often develop competencies, and then just believe that they surely can't be that much more competent at whatever thing than the average person, leading them to be perplexed when said thing is indeed challenging for others.

    Let me ask you, how would you have given that message in a way that would make people stop?, remember that the message is valid, the bug was installing steam doing that.

    I don't think there is any problem with the wording. I think there is a problem with the UX. There is a big problem with the way package managers in linux work and the way they share dependencies/can easily get into dependency hell.

    I think Flatpaks and to a lesser extent Snaps and even lesser, Appimages, are much more sane/user friendly ways to install applications on linux and so I don't think there was anything wrong with the message, but the situations that lead to that message being anything a regular user would ever need to see on any semi regular basis.

    Really, and this is the hottest take there might be about linux and user adoption, one of the biggest problems with linux, is that there are no nannies, and that the core users right now not only (claim to) like it that way, but are actively hostile to nanny features.

    I think computers should be forgiving. You should be able to make a mistake as a user, and quickly correct it. You shouldn't semi regularly need to go into an environment where typing something incorrectly could result in your machine being out of commission until you resolve said problem (part of why snapshots should be part of every computing experience... Windows included...)

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Again, I agree with the majority of what you're saying, and yes, I think most of us might suffer from https://xkcd.com/2501/ but in this particular instance Linus only needed the terminal because of the bug, otherwise he should have been able to install it via the GUI, so the bug was even more disastrous to the UX.

    I think that nanny features are okay on the GUI, which is exactly what happened here, but I should be allowed to do what I want on my system if I have the know how, and I'm okay with danger style messages to let me know I'm about to do something potentially dangerous, but I'm against being forbidden from uninstalling X (which is the short version of what Linus did).

    Flatpacks/snaps/etc are great, and I agree that there should be a push for user space to be mostly there. Also I know it's not for most users, but you might be interested in checking out NixOS which allows you to rollback almost anything, so while not a solution for the majority of people if this is something you have problems with and have the time and energy to learn Nix language it's a great distro for having a system that's almost impossible to break.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    but I should be allowed to do what I want on my system if I have the know how, and I’m okay with danger style messages to let me know I’m about to do something potentially dangerous, but I’m against being forbidden from uninstalling X (which is the short version of what Linus did).

    I'm not in favour of losing autonomy. Not what I was trying to say. Im just saying that if you fuck up, you should be able to unfuck up reasonably. With linux as it is most of the time, you could get got with a typo.

    I also agree that this fault is mostly there because of an error, but I think the point is kinda that, if it wasn't that it'd be something else eventually. Thats just how it is. Its not to blame any developers as I completely understand their constraints, goals and incentives, but its just a reality, and one I think Valve is poised to help with tremendously given than they are a big company whose usability goals are somewhat aligned now.

    Also I know it’s not for most users, but you might be interested in checking out NixOS which allows you to rollback almost anything, so while not a solution for the majority of people if this is something you have problems with and have the time and energy to learn Nix language it’s a great distro for having a system that’s almost impossible to break.

    I was quite interested in NIX, but it seemed at the time I was using linux as a daily that it would be a rough ride to use as a desktop computer/seemed more optimized for use as a server. I do have plans to use a spare machine in such a capacity, so I would say maybe, but then their association with Anduril is pretty fucking disgusting and kinda left a really bad taste in my mouth.

    Anyhow, I think that really, just something like BTRFS snapshots are probably good enough for 9.9/10 fuck ups one might face where they want an emergency undo button (If BTRFS fixed raid 6 write hole issues I would be soo fucking happy btw).

    I also obviously given the past tense kinda gave up on the linux daily because well, games, and its like, why am I fighting my computer. This is not a hill to die on. Maybe later or maybe for a secondary build, but given I just got a 5090 and wanted to fuck around with it, I just set the whole idea aside.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Consoles are sold at a loss, and they recover it with games because the platform is closed.

    Sometimes, but evidently not currently. Sources seem to indicate that only Microsoft seems to say they are selling at a loss, though it seems odd since their bill of materials looks like it should be pretty comparable to PS5...

    I'll agree with the guess of around $800, but like you say, the supply pressure on RAM and storage as well as the tariff situation all over the place, hard to say.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    No, it won't. $800 will get you a machine that's around 50% faster. Controller included.

    Care to share a link to a PCPartPicker with that? Here's a link on the same thread of someone building a similarly speck machine for 800 https://lemmy.world/comment/20649777 and that is without the controller. In case you haven't noticed, RAM prices are a bit crazy at the moment.

    It's literally a laptop CPU with a laptop GPU.

    It's literally not, they custom developed it for the product, similar to the Steam Deck one, it is based on the architecture used on laptops, but so are Playstation and Xbox AFAIK.

    Also not true. A 1k prebuilt is around 70% faster. Controller not included, though.

    Can you provide a link to such a prebuilt? Here's the first prebuilt I could find with similar specs, and it's 1k https://periphio.com/gaming-pcs/firestorm-7600-prebuilt-amd-gaming-pc/

    Sure, but that's an argument in favour of it costing less.

    Yes, that was my point, the top of what this should cost is the same as a prebuilt with similar specs since Valve buys stuff in bulk it should be cheaper than that.

    Yeah, and the best selling console of the generation is $450 for the digital-only version.

    And the other one is 700, your point is?

    Stop this delusion. If this was an actual possibility, it would already be happening with the Steam Deck. Yes, I know you know someone who did it. I know someone who bought a Surface to put Linux on it. There's dozens of us!

    It didn't happened with the Deck because it's not sold at a loss, so it's cheaper to assemble a similarly built PC for you. But I definitely saw several posts through the years recommending people just buy a Steam Deck as their machine in certain conditions. If the Steam Deck costed 300 I guarantee you people would be using it as their daily drivers or building clusters of them.

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