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[–] 72 points 4 months ago (2 children)

He told the truth about the US spying on it's citizens. I got nothing respect for him.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    No he provided evidence. There were people around the globe who knew about the nsa before Edward Snowden and told the truth. There were articles and videos back in 2008 about the nsa backdoor into windows. The only main difference is he, "proved it." like you know how someone goes, "yeah! well prove it!!!" He did.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    There were people around the globe who knew about the nsa before Edward Snowden and told the truth.

    There was a whole fucking Will Smith movie about it in the late 90s. With Gene Hackman, and young Jack Black and Seth Green. Enemy of the State.

    But yeah that wasn't proof, either. But it was the closest to people shouting on the rooftops that this kind of thing was, in fact, happening.

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  • [–] 68 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Seeing how little we actually did, I often wonder if he regrets coming forward.

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  • [–] 56 points 4 months ago

    Yes, he’s a hero And he shouldn’t be punished for calling out the he found. Hope he’s having a great day

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  • [–] 50 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    What Snowden did was objectively good, and he did so at great personal cost, but you should be cautious about making any living person your hero. His politics seem to lean closer to libertarian nut-job than anything else, and it's very possible he will disappoint you in the future. Case in point, Glen Greenwald broke the Snowden leaks, and I considered him one of my heros for a time,.but these days he sounds more like Tucker Carlson than anyone else. The point is, admire heroic actions, but don't make people your heroes.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    His politics seem to lean closer to libertarian nut-job than anything else

    Sure, but you could say the same of Luigi Mangione and that isn't slowing anyone down.

    Case in point, Glen Greenwald broke the Snowden leaks, and I considered him one of my heros for a time,.but these days he sounds more like Tucker Carlson than anyone else.

    Glenn was always a libertarian crank. But after he got ousted from The Guardian, his economic needs superseded his politics. I might suggest that if Glenn had ended up on MSNBC rather than the gutter for FOX News washouts, he'd be denouncing Snowden today rather than praising him.

    The point is, admire heroic actions, but don’t make people your heroes.

    I don't think you can criticize Snowden because the guy who interviewed him ended up becoming a crank. But I also don't know of what became of Snowden, outside "he fled to Russia after Hong Kong wouldn't hide him".

    I might suggest that Snowden was only able to leak what he did because he climbed up the ranks through Booze-Allen to begin with. And there you've got an inherent problem with whistleblowers - either coming or going, they must have done something you don't like.

    But I'd say his turn of conscious and his work ethic and professionalism in how the information was aggregated, leaked, and confirmed makes him a role model for anyone else who aspires to turn coat against a fascist regime. Whatever you think of the individuals, you still do need Role Models in order to inform how you might achieve similar results. That means studying other people - studying history at the individualist level - and asking how they did what they did. Ideally, you're studying people you admire because you want to be more like them. Realistically, you're going to study people and see their warts. And that might shape what you think about their motivations and whether your own motivations lead you the same way.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Sure, but you could say the same of Luigi Mangione and that isn't slowing anyone down.

    I mean, I would say you shouldn't make him your hero either. Even if you think what he did was heroic, lone gunman assassins usually don't turn out to be very stable, well adjusted people. Hell, Ted Kacynski has some good points about post-Industrial life, but that doesn't mean he should be your hero.

    I might suggest that if Glenn had ended up on MSNBC rather than the gutter for FOX News washouts, he'd be denouncing Snowden today rather than praising him.

    Very possible, and nearly as disappointing. My point isn't that he changed or became worse, just that I projected more of my ideals onto him than he actually shared.

    I don't think you can criticize Snowden because the guy who interviewed him ended up becoming a crank.

    To be clear, I'm not. I'm saying that he has some views and beliefs that may lead him to disappoint you in the future. He mostly doesn't comment much on politics outside of the surveillance state, but he has described himself as a libertarian, and said that he believes social security is a scam that needs to die. It seems clear that he is anti-authoritarian, but it's very possible that, if he ever became more vocal about American politics, you'd learn a lot about him that would disappoint you.

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  • [–] 46 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    It's hard to say he's a hero, but, what he did was undoubtedly heroic.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    If doing something heroic does not make you a hero then what does?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    I would say inspiring people. Not that anyone should be held to that standard, mind you; I don't begrudge Edward for fucking off to Russia. One heroic deed is certainly more than most, and I think the world would be a better place if more people rose to the occasion. But to call him a hero? Idk. I personally wouldn't.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    Can you give an example of someone you would call a hero?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    I'd say a well known example is Greta Thunberg. She's consistently stood up for good things at the cost of her health and safety, and while (no offense) nothing has been at the level of exposing a global surveillance apparatus, she has consistently engaged with the world, rolling each action into her public persona, only to use that persona to garner even more attention to her next action. I know Snowden clearly performed an extraordinary act at the cost of his own health and safety; truly a heroic action. And again, I mean this as no slight, dude did more than most; dude is well within his rights to go live as he wants. But, while I would say that Snowden has a consistency to his message, I wouldn't necessarily say he has consistency to his action.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    You think him fleeing to Russia is inconsistent? It seems to me that the organizations he's exposed are the sort of outfits that would murder someone like him, so in order to stay alive I don't know what other choices he would've had.

    Agree on Greta btw, but to continue with the same example, I would say that killing a little girl is less likely, because it would create a martyr. And if she were ever in danger I wouldn't hold it against her if she chose to disappear somewhere. She's already done more than enough.

    My point being, I don't necessarily see the difference, and I'm a bit confused at the apparent hesitation to label Snowden a hero. Tempted to assume that the smear campaign is working even in these circles.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    Nope. You can do a great deed and still be a shitty person.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Are you saying Snowden is a shitty person? If so, why, what's he done?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    He's not. Unless you think taking a job to protect your country is "shitty"

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  • [–] 93 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Guy gave up his life to show Americans (and the world) the truth, and we as a society just ignored him.

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  • [–] 33 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I'm starting to think the world isn't even worth saving, since this is how the world treats those that want to save it.

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  • [–] 171 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Damn right he is. He risked his safety and his life (and still does) to make sure we all know more about how the feds are spying on their own citizens.

    He's a true hero of the American People, that one, make no mistake.

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  • [–] 248 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] 19 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    before the transition* or before they transitioned* (not sure which one you meant to write)

    And before SHE went to prison, I see no reason to say he other than being a anti-trans shit stain. The timing of the transition doesn't matter at all, a person who is transsexual should be called the gender they know they are independent on if someone is talking about before their public transition. A person is the gender they feel they are and should be called so for any time in their life unless they have specifically said that they want to be called their biological/sexual gender when others talk about them before their transition.

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  • [–] 77 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, 100 percent. The fact that he's in exile in Russia is because he cannot get a fair trial in the US. He was never a Russian asset, he's a whistleblower being unfairly persecuted

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  • [–] 103 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I think he blew up his life to reveal something the general public probably should be aware of, but ultimately didn't care about.

    Idk if it was heroic, but it certainly was interesting how he released the info slowly to get catch the government in numerous lies attempting to downplay the truth of the matter. One of the Obama administration's biggest blights.

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  • [–] 140 points 4 months ago (20 children)

    I consider him a true American patriot.

    Nothing is more patriotic than wanting your country to do better.

    Implementing drag net surveillance was a terrible decision, and exposing it was truly heroic.

    Sadly, Snowden is now in the clutches of Russia who can and does use him as their pawn.

    It is easy to say that this is where the EU should have stepped up and given him sanctuary, but that would have been less than ideal for him.

    1. Europe and the US have close ties with police and law enforcement, while no EU nation would hand their own citizens over to the US, they would absolutely hand over a US citizen to the US if requested.
    2. During the war on terror, Europe was complicit in plenty of illegal renditions of their own citizens to the CIA, they were then sent to illegal black sites and tortured, plenty of these persons have since been proven innocent.

    Given the high profile of Snowden's leak, the US still want's him back, and back then even more so, had Snowden gone to the EU, he most likely would have been extradited, kidnapped or even assassinated.

    By staying in Russia that was a far lower risk to him.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago*

    He’s at lower risk from the US, but speaking out about Russia would probably be riskier. It’s an unfortunate situation for him to be stuck in Russia and not some other safe country.

    I think the Swiss should have offered him assistance in an embassy or Vietnam or somewhere other than Putin’s Russia (which we knew was bad even back then).

    Really though, Obama should have pardoned him.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (16 children)

    "The west should have protected him from the west."

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    Eh, the EU makes a big deal of freedom, and has stood up to the US in the past, but here there are actual laws and regulations to follow, and if we stop extraditing US citizens to the US, the US would stop extraditing our citizens to us.

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  • [+] -9 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    Countries in the EU are still occupying Africa. Settler shitheads.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    It appears that I am out of the loop on this...

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Here's one example: https://www.pulse.ng/story/7-ways-france-still-controls-its-former-african-colonies-2024072617033075753

    Don't feel bad. Many are out of the loop. The west spends a lot of money ensuring most are clueless to what's actually going on in the world.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    That article made me vigorously expel air from my nose.

    What's the #1 way that France still controls its former African colonies?

    "1. These countries must officially speak French"

    Did you know England controls the United States? How? England makes the US speak English. I'm super serial! This isn't a laughing matter, so stop laughing at this matter.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    You are answering to someone from a tankie instance, expect their views to be aligned with authoritarian left and take them with many grains of salt. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Hey, thanks for telling me, I know about tankies, as well as the instances they run, though I don't check every user to see where they come from.

    I'll tag him accordingly.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I don't generally dwell on the libshits like yourself, some will never learn the art of thinking critically, but I would like to point out that the best way to control the population is to divide it. You're either a fed or unknowingly lending them a hand.

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The irony of calling someone a "lib-shit", over what is, in the grande scheme of things, a minor quibble, in the literal same sentence they talk about how people are dividing the population intentionally to control them.

    Lmfao, you're the one dividing the population you unselfreflective dipshit. Grow up.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Unironically true. Wish we lived in the timeline where war crimes mattered and those war criminal bastards were rotting in prison. Now because the USA let their own war crimes slide, it's made autonomous killing systems permissible and civilian casualty rates nearly completely ignored as the horrible precedent of today and on. I hate warfare with a passion

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    while no EU nation would hand their own citizens over to the US

    Europe was complicit in plenty of illegal renditions of their own citizens to the CIA

    Make up your mind.

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  • [–] 31 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    conservatives have a wierd obssesion of him being a"traitor" guess exposing conservative hypocrisy is traitorous.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    That's because conservatives think they're not going to be treated like 'the plebs'. They think if they're loyal to the empire, they'll be exempt from the imperial boomerang when it comes back (it's here).

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  • [–] 30 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    His demand to return to the US and give himself in was if he got a public (non military) trial.

    The government's offer under Obama was that the only guarantee they would provide was that he wouldn't be subject to torture.

    Even if he had negligible effect on state level surveillance, the documents he shared provided some insanely valuable perspective into the capability and power of nation states in the cybersecurity space.

    Anything the NSA is or was doing can also be applied to other major countries like China or Russia, and the capability + compute power has only grown in size since.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_disclosures

    EDIT: Also in true American foreign interest memery, the top two most heavily surveilled states are Iran and Pakistan.

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  • [–] 28 points 4 months ago

    mixed but yes. the govt made an example of him and from the popular standpoint he was serving the people. he also helped GDPR so thats factored in. currently the police state is still winning.

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  • [–] 23 points 4 months ago

    I always thought he was. I always knew too that he's never going to get a fair trial and that he had to do what was necessary to avoid being extradited.

    He did a huge favor for the american masses, who were obliviously unaware as to how much of an extent that they were being spied on and how their privacy was exploited. Anybody who still calls him a traitor to this day, besides the government anyways, are those who truly cannot grasp or refuse the reality this man unveiled to them.

    I do see people and people like Luigi as true patriots. They have done things, that no American has the guts to pull off. The American populace, just largely takes the constant raping of their rights by their government and fear them. It should be the other way around.

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  • [–] 43 points 4 months ago

    Yes, and I wish him well. Be careful, if you're thinking of anything.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Fuck ya he is, the world needs more of him. Doing something for the greater good when greed and selfishness is not your primary motive 95% of the time makes you a hero in my book.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    it is the structure... all people got a little devil in them... in some wierd way "leaders" are people unregulated and victums of their own vanity. This is hard to invision since they manage perception... it is litterly a gawd damn business manging image. We the plebs worship idols as the Teachers foster kids.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago

    Absolutely.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Yeah, I wish he didn't end up in Russia, but it's understandable.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    There was pretty much nowhere else he would have been safe from being extradited to the US, if not immediately, then as a political bargain.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Not sure he had a better deal than Snowden tbh.

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    I got in trouble in school for putting free Kevin stuff on my binders, backpack, etc

    Hero? From the stance of exposing things that should have been public knowledge, absolutely.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah sorry Kevin Mitnick. Always supported this type of stuff... I guess I was missing the bridge there.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago

    Oh yes. It's a shame he didn't have the opportunity to leak the Epstein Files.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago

    The embodiment of "not all heroes wear capes". Unless he did or does.

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