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[–] 104 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

There is actually a bit of sense in there. Paper cups weren't simply paper - its tetrapak-like material with plastic coating inside. They are notoriously hard to recycle. Plain plastic cups on the other hand are made from single material, most likely PET. Moreover, they are transparent, without colouring additives.

There are two reasons why colour in plastic makes it harder to recycle. First, pigment is a completely different substance, which behaves differently from plastic itself. It makes it harder to "re-melt" into stable material. If you ever 3d printed anything with matte/gloss filament, you'll know that it is more finicky than plain one. Second, uncoloured plastic can be coloured into anything, while other needs to be either sorted by colour or mixed with strong dye (black, gray, dark brown, etc) to have consistent colour.

PET itself is pretty easy to turn into something new, actually. A workshop near me had a live demo of the whole process - chipping it into small pieces, feeding to the heated tube, and then injection molded into trinkets. Industrial grade processing usually have "turned into pellets" step in between, but it's basically the same.

Plastic-covered paper, on the other hand, should be somehow separated first, and then handled with two different approaches - one for paper, another one for plastic film. Doable, but much harder. Paper straw can probably decompose by itself, without any special conditions.

UPD: Be wary that recycling is not a panacea. There's multiple videos about how recycling plastic isn't actually a thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68zjxTTl5Ik for example.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    UPD: Be wary that recycling is not a panacea. There's multiple videos about how recycling plastic isn't actually a thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68zjxTTl5Ik for example.

    Yeah, there’s a reason “recycle” is only number three on the “reduce, reuse, recycle” list. Recycling is the last (and worst) option, and only really makes the list because it’s hopefully not contributing to landfill issues. It’s not the very first thing people should rely on.

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  • [–] 69 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    Still waiting on straws made of dry pasta. Biodegradable, strong, edible if you really want

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  • [–] 53 points 4 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    $140 USD for a box of pasta. You should buy a box and let us know. To be fair that gets you a few thousand straws but no matter how hungry I am I can't eat that many pieces of noodle.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    140 for how many pounds? you can get a 50 pack for like 6 bucks.

    i kind of want to try them in both drinks and pasta. like, that would pick up so much vodka sauce i want it. but i have yet to try the rice pasta i don't gag on. i'll stick with my cannellonis, ravioles, linguines, bucatinis, and cavatappis. those five hit all the notes i need.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    $140 = 2250 straws.

    5c a straw feels expensive. I buy PLA straws at around 4c a straw. I don't think pasta straws are all that better unless you compost. All straws are bad if you're just chucking them in a bin at least from what i've heard.

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  • [–] 139 points 4 months ago (37 children)

    There's so much plastic lining that paper otherwise everything would get too soggy anyway. Yay for glass and metal. Reusable beats disposable, no matter what it's made of

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  • [–] 47 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (9 children)

    Theres a plastic lining in aluminium cans too. So glass is the way.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    It's quite thin for aluminum, and the downside with glass is the high energy cost of melting it. I'd like if we went back to washing and reusing bottles, but I suppose that's a big shift in processing capabilities.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Not 100% win though:

    Glass bottles of lemonade, iced tea, soft drinks and beer contained on average around 100 microplastic particles per litre, which is between five and 50 times more than plastic bottles or cans. Source

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Forgive any ignorance or arrogance on my part, I'm not a materials scientist at all, but wouldn't the plastic caps on plastic bottles also have the same deleterious effect?

    I didn't read anything in there about them exploring the source of the plastic particulates in plastic bottles. Whether from the bottle or from the cap too.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    The cap is actually much worse than the bottle because the mechanical twisting motion abrades the surfaces, so yes it turns yes out you can badly contaminate a whole bottle of liquid with a simple bottlecap.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Some poorly made reusable shopping bags rip or otherwise break before they get used enough times to break even with the single use disposable plastic shopping bags they are supposed to replace. Especially the cheap ones bring given out as freebies.

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  • [–] 37 points 4 months ago* (10 children)

    That's bullshit from the oil companies. They did a "study" that concluded that, but if you read the methodology, they made the assumption that the reusable bag would be unusable after 20 uses.

    Meanwhile I've been going to the grocery store every week for quite a few years using the same bags without much issue. I've had one strap on a bag break after ~10 years of use, so there's that I guess. Still haven't thrown it out, keep meaning to repair it which I never get around to doing.

    Anyway, if you read between the lines of the study conducted by the oil companies, if you reuse the bag more than 20 times (half a year of going to the grocery store every week) you are reducing plastic waste.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Those damn oil companies really grind my gears

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Electric motors don't use gears... we have gears to grind because the oil companies have made a lot of people think they're necessary.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    The motors don't but the drivetrains often do. Not for multiple gear ratios usually but to get a good ratio for it particular motor in the car. But IIRC some EVs do have two speed transmissions because high RPMs might not necessarily be the most efficient for an electric motor even if they can be reached.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    No, that's no bullshit, we just recently had a reusable shopping bag's handles literally rip off after only the third use...

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Consider buying less shitty bags then.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    It was a donation from a food bank, but thanks for the thought.

    Also, how do you know what bags are and aren't shitty? Do you have a list of such bags, with weight limit capacity, plus age limit before the threads start to come loose or dryrot?

    Didn't think so.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Most of my bags are given to me by boomers that can never remember to take their bags to the store and just buy more. I think I've only actually bought one shopping bag about 25 years ago, which is the one that had it's handle tear off after about near to two decades of service. I don't put more weight in the bag than a plastic bag would be able to carry. I have a fabric tote bag and a backpack to use for heavier stuff. I just exercise some common sense with my shopping bags, I guess.

    Are you claiming that disposable plastic bags would never have the handles tear off (or the bag just split open) if you put too much weight into them? I think the same rules apply to either, it's a mess either way if you put too much weight into a single bag, so... don't do that.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    You're discounting transportation and manufacturing (energy) costs.

    Reusable only works if it's manufactured fairly locally and actually gets recycled, which a lot of stuff doesn't, even if it's made from glass or metal.

    We need to move away from packaging altogether.

    Bring-your-own-container is the only way.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Wat? It’s great if it gets recycled, but it works if it gets reused

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Glass = heavy. More transport pollution, more manufacturing pollution.

    While glass is high in recyclability, all hinges on where it's coming from and where it's going (to be recycled).

    Best container is the one you can bring from home.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    Still the point stands that you can reuse glass a lot than plastic before you have to recycle it. (Glass up to 50 times and PET up to 20 times.) Transport pollution is a solvable problem, but they definitely require more energy to get transported.

    And the point is still that reusable works no matter how it gets produced and recycled, since it avoids the production of a lot of new bottles.

    Edit: Okay, production and transport of course matter, but energy needed for production needs to be divided by the average amount of use plus the transport for every cycle plus the energy needed for cleaning.

    Bringing your own stuff is definitely the best way, yes. That would require special filling stations, which I don’t see coming anytime soon. I’ve only seen tests for bringing your own container with dry and pourable stuff, but that may require standardized containers for weighing if I remember correctly. At least in supermarkets.

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  • [+] -19 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Glass is glass and glass breaks. Win win for overpopulation, though.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    A German talking about overpopulation. I don't like where this is going...

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    Why would you assume I am German? Also, the person you were thinking of is from Austria.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Unlike plastic which never breaks ever

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    Sheet thin bendable plastic like that is difficult to break without tools. Especially while you are in progress of drinking from it. I was referring to glass shards going into people if it wasn't clear. There's already plastics in people (for various reasons, not just straws), not much to loose there.

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  • [–] 38 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    The real trick all along was always reducing your consumption of disposable products.

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  • [+] 8 points 4 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The real trick all along was always reducing you

    Less people = less consumption.

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  • [–] 248 points 4 months ago (30 children)
  • [–] 184 points 4 months ago (13 children)
  • [–] 51 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    So I've wanted to do this for a minute..

    But how many paper straws would you have to use to offset one of these explosions? How long would it take to offset one of these explosions through straw use?

    Writing this now I was surprised by the results...

    Source for plastic v paper straw data

    So apparently plastic straws are actually more carbon neutral than paper straws, but for the purposes of this analysis I'm going to carry it through to find out how long it takes to create equivalent emissions.

    Paper straws:

    Call it 1430 grams of emissions per straw (which is wild btw)

    Plastic straws:

    Call it 610 per plastic straw. Still wild for something which weighs less than a gram.

    This is also from the thesis

    So yeah.. not great.

    Gonna be using 825 tons of carbon dioxide emitted from Hank Green's video.

    I think Hank is working in US standard units here.. which is also weird and annoying but whatever... We're getting to units of rocket explosion per straw so it's fine..

    And I'm going to be using 500 million straws per day, which is cited in the thesis from a 2017 study and repeated elsewhere in other studies on this.

    It's not great but what even are we doing here..

    I don't know how we get a plastic straw versus compostable straw use rate (what proportion of straws are still plastic versus how many are now paper or some other alternatives)

    But we get 820 additional grams of emissions for each straw swapped.

    500 tons to grams is:

    838238016

    Divided by the difference in co2e foot print per straw...

    838238016 / 820 is about 1022240, in other words, about a million.

    So for about every million straws swapped from plastic to paper, one giant fiery rocket explosion of CO2 emissions occurs.

    The US consumes straws at a convenient rate of 500 million a day, so if ALL of those straws were converted to paper, we're setting off about 500 of those explosions per day.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    I was always given to understand that the straw thing was because plastic straws get out and fuck up wildlife, but that message seems to get buried in handwringing over climate change so often that I suspect bad actors are at play spreading all these memes.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Idk. It's not at all clear to me why or what's the point of these very performative acts.

    There is almost no way it represents any practical differences to wildlife. It seemed to me something companies could "do" as a form of visual way of communicating that they were "doing something", and it's something that was done in sync, with no real consent of the consumer. It's not like people were driving this. It was very much from the corporate side.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    There is almost no way it represents any practical differences to wildlife.

    Source: your ass?

    Eighty of 135 (59%) species with studies reported in the literature between 1962 and 2012 had ingested plastic, and, within those studies, on average 29% of individuals had plastic in their gut.

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1502108112

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago*

    Source: the about an hour of research I did on straws to write the response. I mean I read a fucking thesis on it and probably 4-5 articles. I mean the links in there you lazy fukkah

    So maybe shove it up your ass.

    Oh you editing now? Go find evidence that the transition from plastic straws to paper has had any measurable impacts on wildlife.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    That doesn't really get to the impact of the plastic. Something like 100% of humans have plastic in their blood. It's there, but mostly it just seems to be inert. There are thousands of problems we are creating that we know are causing widespread extinctions. I'm not opposed to reducing plastic use, but forcing a major inconvenience for dubious results burns a lot of goodwill. That's why this is a popular wedge issue for the right, even though it mostly affects liberal coastal cities.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Something like 100% of humans have plastic in their blood

    It blows my mind how you’re saying that like it makes it ok

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Well the sentence after that is rather critical. It's not that 100% of humans have it, so who cares about animals; it's that we have an enormous highly-scrutinized test population, and in general the impacts are mild to imperceptible. I'm not blowing off this concern; we need to keep studying it in humans and animals (and the results may be different!).

    But right now there are scores of critical world issues that can be tangibly addressed. Asking people to make lifestyle changes for possibly zero meaningful impact is actually counterproductive.

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  • [+] 52 points 4 months ago* (12 children)
  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    There are no ethical billionaires

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  • [+] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    Why waste energy distinguish are you a level 4 or a level 5 offender. Our energy would be much better spend dealing with the root of the problem. That is a society allowing that level of accumulation of wealth. No matter if you are performing for your fans or flying to Epstein island.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    As i do every time somebody posts this article:

    The headline is misleading. It's not 57 "companies". The original source speaks of "Entities".

    Number one on that List of 57? The former Soviet Union. Good luck holding them responsible. Next to several state controlled Actors like Gazprom (6th) or Saudi Armaco (3rd), some privat companies like ExxonMobile (5th), there are entities like Chinas Coal production from 1945 - 2004 (2nd) North Korea (57th) or Cinas Cement production (13th).

    The list shows that oil companies cause a lot of emissions (but apparently not as much as the former soviet union). To absolutly nobodies suprise.

    Next to holding them accountable for their emissions (and their lobbying, pro oil propaganda, etc) we need to find ways to reduce emissions in our lives. Those companies will only stop if their products is less and less needed.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    the handful of megacorporations emitting 80% of all green house gases

    That's just nonsense.

    1. The top two providers in that list are the governments of USSR and China. They are not "megacorporations"
    2. It not a list of "emitters". These entities are just "linked to" the emissions -- i.e. they provided the fuel that someone else burned.

    It's completely ridiculous to say that it doesn't matter that someone burns 1,000 gallons of fuel a day because a big company sold it to them.

    Targetting individuals people or companies is useless. There's over a billion co-contributers, not a handful. Systematic changes like a carbon tax are necessary.

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  • [+] 6 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    It's nonsense because there's no way to read what you wrote and think it means anything other than a bunch of for-profit corporations are actually emitting that much CO2e. In reality they are just a link in the supply chain, and direct individual use is actually a huge part of emissions (making up the majority when indirect individual use is considered).

    1. State "companies" should be treated differently because they have different structures, motivations, scope, and controls
    2. It is not useful to focus on oil conglomerates because they are basically interchangeable. What is the behavior change you want from them? To all stop existing? To raise prices to discourage use? To collude into providing some correct amount of their product?

    How do you imagine one would "take on" a corporation? "Hey Exxon, you're bad for selling me gasoline. Stop doing that!". If you think we should take them on by buying as little from them as possible, then I guess we agree there.

    It can be difficult to control the incidence of a tax, but a carbon dividend should overall have a highly progressive effect.

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  • [+] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    While they knowingly have misinformed the end users about the impacts of their products

    This is a different point and independent of production quantities. Yes, that should be punished, but that will serve to deter the next corporate coverup, not resolve the ones in the past.

    State companies are just as accountable

    My point about state companies is that they have completely different levers of control. Yes, they need to change, but how to get them to change is vastly different than a multinational.

    we can completely stop using fossil fuels for power generation and travel over land

    This is exactly my point -- how is focusing on some of the companies that pump oil out of the ground going to change power generation or transportation?

    Who ever said we should just have a stern conversation with them

    What I'm pointing out is that vague inflammatory language like "taking on" the big bad 57 companies doesn't actually suggest any action. Rather it provides an easy scapegoat and excuse for inaction.

    The EU for example can impose restrictions, rules and taxes.

    100% agree. Would that only be on the 57 largest entities?

    I don't think we've disagreed about a single actual action that should be taken, so this basically breaks down to rhetoric. Setting aside the statement's veracity, do you think saying "80% of emissions come from megacorporations" drives people toward seeking solutions? Does it stimulate discussion about carbon taxes and regulations? Does it make people think about taking more efficient transport or pushing for solar generation in their area (or getting their own panels)?

    Or does it encourage people to self-righteously finger-wag and ignore any personal and community responsibility?

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  • [+] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    how is focusing on some of the companies that pump oil out of the ground going to change power generation or transportation?

    Simple, if they realise their products aren’t as profitable anymore they will invest more into green energy that is not taxed as heavily.

    You've answered the opposite of the question that I asked. Which underscores my point -- the consumer change drives the producer change, not the other way around.

    Inflammation is a normal bodily response to a parasite.

    And it is often counter-productive, even fatal. Pay attention to the response that you are getting -- people aren't about to take action; they are going to internally fester.

    What inaction?

    The inaction of useless discussion. Oh, here's a meme blaming "corporations" for everything; I can see emissions dropping already.

    Would that only be on the 57 largest entities?

    Why would it have to be?

    It wouldn't. That's my point. The list doesn't matter.

    I already said start at the top and work your way down.

    As you just pointed out, there is no need for that; we can address the whole problem at once.

    A lot of people simply don’t care

    Of course, but what about the people who do? What will you encourage them to do?

    It’s more effective to direct your efforts towards the root of the problem

    It's more effective to direct your efforts towards organization and action instead of blame.

    We've already agreed that what needs to happen is carbon taxes, so let's work toward that.

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    [–] 28 points 4 months ago

    Sidenote: all 4 include plastic.

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