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[–] 110 points 5 months ago (29 children)

I think the author is mostly right about the current state of AI, but his future predictions (or worries) are based on a false premise: that the massive LLMs will keep improving in the future.

As far as I have seen the improvements have clearly slowed down, while the energy consumption is rising linearly (or worse). It's like the energy (money) vs. performance graph is logarithmic, and the companies are expending double the energy to get a 10% improvement. Something like that is not sustainable, and the money seems to indicate so.

I really think that LLMs are a dead-end for AI. A really useful dead-end, once the bubble pops and with time, we get a useful working model for them, probably based mostly on local LLMs, maybe using specialized training data.

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  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago (26 children)

    Energy efficiency has improved by orders of magnitude - leading to much higher energy use. It's the Jevons paradox and it's as old as coal-gas lighting. Last year some guy recreated GPT2 for twenty bucks. Corpus to model in one hour. OpenAI never said how much the original cost, but there was at least one comma.

    But yeah, LLMs are fundamentally limited, because 'what's the next word' shouldn't work. The fact it's accidentally this flexible and powerful, even with its many infamous fuckups, is a reminder that neural networks in general will permanently alter computing. Models trained on supercomputers can run on any potato. Any problem with good examples can be addressed, without first being solved.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago* (25 children)

    LLMs are fundamentally limited, because 'what's the next word' shouldn't work.

    Yes, you're right. However, for fear of coming off as an AI sycophant (I've yet to sacrifice my brain at the altar of our future AI overlords), LLMs aren't the whole picture. Plenty of research is dedicated to essentially combining the best of each class of AI algorithms into a composite model of intelligence. For instance, "Neuro-Symbolic AI" is really just the result of giving an LLM (good at translation, search, synthesis, bad at symbolic reasoning) a symbolic inference engine like Prolog (good at symbolic reasoning, no native ability for translation/search/synthesis). I've been coding for over 20 years, and I'm impressed at its results for software development.

    This all is reminiscent of Moore's Law; even though we keep running into the physical limits of CPU clock speeds, transistor size, etc. we keep finding clever ways to work around those limits.

    Of course I'm not saying we should; these models are, after all, models of intelligence, not wisdom.

    Edit: fix apostrophe splice

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (24 children)

    Being reasonable about the tech is kind of a pain, here. At least we only got one flavor of campist, so anyone seeing outright "boosters" is jumping at shadows. I just think the chatbot that can code is neat. Maybe we can do stuff with it. Maybe it doesn't need to spy on everyone forever.

    We accidentally invented p-zombies and they're already more intelligent than script kiddies. Once the grifters move on we can see what that's good for.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (23 children)

    Agreed. The bubble has to pop eventually... Or not, and we really are marching towards our own obsolescence as a species.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (22 children)

    I mean, AGI is inevitable, but it's never gonna come from these dinguses. They can't even look past LLMs far enough to pursue text diffusion.

    To imagine we cannot possibly build a mind, or that it cannot possibly improve that same effort, is baffling. It changes the shape of the universe.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (20 children)

    Nothing's inevitable. And as for "building a mind", while it depends on precisely what you mean by "mind", it's totally possible that only a biological brain can produce minds as we understand the word "mind". Building AGI doesn't necessarily mean building a mind. And since thoughts seem to be properties of "matter", and there seem to be rules about which configurations of matter produce mind, we don't necessarily know that there are other configurations that can produce minds. We might produce something else equally interesting which still is not a mind.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (19 children)

    it’s totally possible that only a biological brain can produce minds as we understand the word “mind”.

    Bollocks. Thought is a process, like math. Nothing meat does with signals is impossible in other substrates.

    At the utmost extreme: surely we can simulate physics at whatever level is necessary for virtual brains to function. Physical neurons are not gonna rely on quantum chromodynamics. Mere chemistry will probably suffice.

    And hand-waving things that are like-minds-but sounds like Chinese Room nonsense.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    You say that, and GAs were used decades ago to design FPGAs to a spec. The evolved design worked perfectly on the test chip, so the design was copied onto a second chip and it failed. The logic gates were identical but the GA had utilised microscopic differences in the substrate and there were large areas of programmed chip totally unconnected to the main circuit. Without them, the first chip didn’t work any more.

    There are likely quantum effects available at the size / scale of neurons, and it’s brave to say evolution wouldn’t exploit them if there was some benefit.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago*

    Yeah yeah yeah, probably exploiting capacitance instead of on-spec functionality, I'm well familiar with this example. It's not relevant - there's eight billion human brains in the world, and they generally still function despite the wild shit we put them through. They are not fragile.

    A human mind is not balanced on a knife-edge, where one tiny difference breaks everything. They're complex enough that sometimes blowing a railroad spike clean through just alters functionality. It's still a mind. Subatomic interactions surely cannot be crucial here.

    And again, this is only the extreme example. Y'think all known laws of the universe are mandatory? Great, simulate those too. Same answer: meat has no monopoly on thought because metal can fake the meat. There is no philosophical basis for even suggesting AGI is impossible, unless you start talking about souls.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (15 children)

    Thought is a process, like math.

    You're making a baseless assumption about the inner being of every process. If you simulate physics then you're actually doing different physics, where the map is not the terrain. If the hardware is different then the inner being of the thing may very well be different.

    You're actually displaying a lack of imagination here. You're not considering things other than consciousness. If you simulate the processes which on the surface resemble the processes that you see in the brain when observing from the outside, what you produce may be something equally interesting and yet totally different in-itself from subjective experience.

    You don't know as much as you think you know.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (14 children)

    Woo-woo nonsense. Indefensible without invoking the supernatural.

    Everyone you've ever met is a meat robot, and they run on physics. How they feel about it does not change that.

    And I already said, we invented p-zombies. LLMs display intelligence without consciousness. Your hand-wavy what-if doesn't work as a gotcha because we're already there. Nonetheless - these shortfalls are a big fucking hint that magic isn't real.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (13 children)

    they run on physics

    that's precisely what I'm saying

    LLMs display intelligence without consciousness

    That's precisely what I'm saying

    doesn’t work as a gotcha

    Nobody said anything about a gotcha

    magic isn’t real.

    Nobody said anything about magic.

    If consciousness is a physical process, then a different physical process (such as an intelligent process running on different hardware) cannot be assumed to produce the same result (the result of conscious experience).

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (12 children)

    Like planes don't experience flight unless they flap.

    This is stupid. I acknowledge that's not an airtight logical counterargument, but just, come the fuck on. You are asserting that neurons made of silicon, with identical observable function, wouldn't count somehow. Charitably: wouldn't work, somehow. That at least distinguishes it from standard Chinese Room horseshit. But if we can fake every neuron to do the same thing, or simulate the entire physical environment to do the same thing, of fucking course it's going to do the same thing. If the laws of the universe somehow mean only meat can experience being a true Scotsman, we can fake those laws.

    You've picked a philosophical nit that is somehow at odds with Turing completeness. Unless you think physics are incomputable - it cannot matter what substrate they run on. It's literally math.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (11 children)

    Like planes don’t experience flight unless they flap.

    Are you claiming that planes experience flight?

    This is stupid.

    k

    come the fuck on

    k

    neurons made of silicon

    Two problems with this: (1) The virtual neural net of LLMs don't have neurons made of silicon. Their neurons are virtual, abstract, not physical phenomena. (2) Even if we move to the idea of a positronic brain like Data from Star Trek or the Terminator, it still isn't our chemical-electrical brain which has different physical properties. This is very simple. It is a different physical object. It is different. It is not what we are.

    Chinese Room horseshit

    k

    simulate the entire physical environment to do the same thing

    If you are simulating it, it is a different thing.

    It’s literally math.

    This is a metaphysical assumption much closer to the "woo" that you keep accusing me of, and cursing at me about.

    it cannot matter what substrate they run on

    This contradicts your statement that "It's literally math" because you can calculate the difference between substrates.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (10 children)

    If you are simulating it, it is a different thing.

    No.

    If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real. That's qualia, numbnuts. That is a mind.

    I'm not gonna pick apart the word salad of 'calculating the difference between substrates' if you can't even keep your philosophy straight.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    numbnuts

    k

    If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real.

    You're just throwing the assumption of experience into the sentence for no reason. You have beliefs about this stuff, not facts.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (8 children)

    Do you know what if means?

    You want to make this a matter of philosophy, and then you suck at philosophy. Hey buddy, do you have facts about other real people's experiences, or do you just have beliefs? Could you even demonstrate your own conscious experience to me?

    And all of this is such tired Philosophy 101 crap, just so you can cling to 'aha but what if,' even though I have a concrete answer for what-if. Are we ruling out magic? Great, then physics can be simulated and a computer can host a mind that way. Its experiences would be identical to any free-range meatbag. If it wrote a book, you could read it. That would be real art. So in what fucking manner is its consciousness not real experience?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (7 children)

    Hey buddy

    Hello.

    you suck at philosophy

    When you said, "If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real", you're just saying "If my statement is true then my statement is true." You offer no basis for assuming that "a simulated person experiences consciousness" in the first place. You are simply assuming it. Your whole side of this entire conversation is just an assumption.

    physics can be simulated

    Yes and the simulation is a different physical process than the process that it's simulating.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (6 children)

    'If it happens, it counts' is not a tautology when you insist happening and counting are different things. To the guy in the simulation, any experience is real. His consciousness entails all the processes you insist must be accounted for. It works the exact same way as it does in real life with real meat.

    If you would insist 'well that's only simulating consciousness' - that counts.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    To the guy in the simulation, any experience is real.

    Again, you have no basis for claiming that there is experience in the simulation in the first place. If you set up some simulation to mimic human behavior there's no reason to assume that it is experiencing that behavior. You're putting an assumption here.

    If you would insist ‘well that’s only simulating consciousness’ - that counts.

    I never insisted that it's "only simulating consciousness." I'm rejecting the baseless assertion that consciousness is what's being simulated. If you simulate the physical processes that we associate with consciousness (neural networks), even if it produces enough observable behaviors that we find the model useful, it is still a different physical thing and therefore we are unable to assert that it is experiencing consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (4 children)

    Simulating physics from first principles is not "mimicking human behavior." Don't dismissively phrase it like a chatbot. If you insist the exact molecular exchanges in human neurons are a mandatory component, you could observe every subatomic event, not just the fact they talk to you like any other meatbag on the street.

    I never insisted that it’s “only simulating consciousness.”

    You just did! Again! You think an entire simulated human being, that acts exactly like a living person for the same underlying reasons, must be different - somehow. Your consciousness only arises from the laws of physics and the shape of matter, but if we simulated both of those exactly, and got indistinguishable results, then nuh-uh.

    This is dualism. This is Descartes torturing dogs and insisting they only act like they feel pain, unlike us real humans, because we're different and special. It's straight-up Chinese Room horseshit, where no demonstrable evidence of conscious thought is enough, unless it fits your preconceived notions of what minds look like.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    Simulating physics from first principles is not “mimicking human behavior.”

    Our "first principles" are knowledge, not a new universe. You're not absolutely re-creating the entirety of reality. You're making a model that is useful, something that is "good enough" that it will produce outputs that can be used to roughly predict the outcome of real processes.

    You think an entire simulated human being, that acts exactly like a living person for the same underlying reasons, must be different - somehow

    No matter how detailed your simulation is, it's still physically different. You're admitting this every time you call it a simulation. You can tell the difference between a simulation and the thing it's simulating.

    This is dualism

    No, because I'm saying that consciousness is a physical process. You're saying that it's a mathematical process and that the substrate doesn't matter. I'm saying the substrate is a physical thing, and that consciousness is a physical processes, and so different substrates enable different physical processes. I don't claim that consciousness comes from some Beyond, or from Heaven, or from God. I'm saying it's a physical process, and that a simulation is a different physical process, no matter how detailed.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    You can tell the difference between a simulation and the thing it’s simulating.

    The premise is - you fucking can't. It acts ex-act-ly like the real thing, and for all the same reasons. Given that unreasonably high standard, you still insist, nuh uh. Would never be conscious. We're beyond 'but what if.' You're explicitly arguing that machine consciousness would not count. That any difference from exactly how humans work cannot be a mind. Fuck off. That's just novel bigotry. Dog-torturing prejudice.

    If you can have a long-ass argument with someone and go away figuring they're a person like you - that's consciousness. That's the only way you can judge the inner life of any person you have ever met. And you want to pretend that someone meeting that standard, while you observe their brain at a subatomic level, is disqualified? Come back and fuck off again.

    You cannot laud the perfect exactitude of... squishy biology and quantum foam... and still say nuh-uh when a whole-ass person arises from those exact processes. If you mean anything when you say it's all just physics, then whatever physics are required for consciousness, can be faked. The resulting person really does think, as surely as an emulated calculator does real math. It's not simulating math. It's doing math. The device is simulated, but the answers are real. Get it?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    The premise is - you fucking can’t. It acts ex-act-ly like the real thing, and for all the same reasons

    You literally made the simulation, so yes you can tell the difference. And the math is inevitably different, because the math of the simulation includes the math which defines the different substrate. So it is physically different, a different thing. Assume whatever you want, but in the end it is a physically different thing, and it takes different math to fully describe it. We only know for sure that conscious experience happens with this substrate.

    Fuck off

    k

    Dog-torturing prejudice.

    k

    fuck off again

    good bye

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    the math of the simulation includes the math which defines the different substrate

    2+2 on an emulated calculator gets a different answer than 2+2 on a real one, because there's different math. Math being physics in this case but not when it undercuts your whole point. Conscious experience must only be possible in this substrate, despite zero evidence to the contrary... and faking the entire substrate with physics math doesn't count because numbers work differently in rocks than in meat.

    k.

    If telling you to shut up is redundant then good riddance.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I'd be curious why you think LLMs are dead ending? Is it that you think the Jepa models are likely to find success and win out or do you think the LLMs in generally are just hitting their peaks?

    Your point on power usage is interesting, although I think that is mostly on training not usage correct?

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  • [–] 35 points 5 months ago

    I think they're a dead-end mostly because of the exponential cost vs. performance. The decreasing returns are obvious, and the companies are trying to adapt by raising token prices, but that will not be enough with the current user numbers (or even double or triple, if we believe the analysts). I think that, at least with these large LLM companies, we're actually beyond the point of economic equilibrium with this technology, at current energy and water prices.

    And yes, training is more expensive than usage. That's probably the reason why Anthropic suggested a pause in LLM development (training), supposedly because of the fear that AI could become Skynet, but really because they are getting an IPO soon and if people see their current balance numbers, the IPO would fail and the bubble would probably pop. Which really proves my point a little: the economics of these companies "improving their LLMs" (training) don't make sense at current energy prices.

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  • [–] 73 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    Give it time. My software career is also affected. At the rate they're spending money at an order of magnitude higher than they're making. They've also all borrowed money from each other. It's going to collapse in a big heap. Hopefully before it sucks in mum and dad investors.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    It’s going to collapse in a big heap

    Just like the housing market which the government bailed out at our expense. And housing prices continue to outpace salaries. There's a strong possibility that this is a permanently-forced inefficiency.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not so sure. The AI hate in the general population is real. The fact that all these companies immediately claimed to replace all human labor within months, made them the enemy of the people, regardless how false these predictions were.

    Banks are not liked either, but they are not hated in the same way. At least in the general public a mortgage seems to be the responsibility of both parties. "So the banks speculated, we still need houses and mortgages."

    I'm not so sure you can explain away the AI bubble that easily. Occupy Wallstreet will be a small affair in comparison.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I'm fairly pessimistic about the future. Occupy Wallstreet was a total failure. A bigger version can still be a total failure. We've been in a cyberpunk dystopia since 9/11, totally and transparently owned by megacorporations. I can easily see an AI-powered police state dramatically wasting energy to dominate the population.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    I'll frame your comment and hang it om my wall.

    We need to fight against a cyberpunk future no matter what.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Sure, but we need to also avoid situations where we are simply following its protocols while thinking that we're fighting it. Occupy Wallstreet just vented our energy, and then we went back to work while the same processes accelerated. Terrorism always just increases the power of the police state. Both of these things operate within the protocols of the cyberpunk dystopia, and ultimately facilitate its growth.

    The cyberpunk dystopia wants you to fight it. It wants a strong immune system. It wants you to test its boundaries. But I'm not suggesting complacence either.

    I would reframe "fighting the cyberpunk dystopia no matter what" into something more human-affirming, just as a starting point. Human communities, human learning and expression, homesteading and communing with nature, anything DIY and IRL, I think all these things are more positive than falling into the excitement-trap of believing that you're "fighting" the monopoly on violence.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Yeah, "fight" is not the best word. We have to start building more resilient systems now that survive crisis better than monopolistic oligarchies. I love finding ideas for this in frameworks following Solarpunk values. It's not perfect, but I rather help building towards a hopeful utopian future with some flaws than the dystopia we seem to race towards.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    It’s gonna be about a decade more.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    If you’re in the US, social security isn’t going to be funding anyone by then either. So, I hope you have enough money to live off of and pay out of pocket medical. 🙁

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    That's the plan, else I wouldn't be retiring.

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  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I find it difficult, too, especially since management hasn't caught onto this yet and still wants me to specialize.
    And of course, the answer is that I should specialize in AI, because there's currently a lot of new development happening there. But that knowledge is also getting obsolete by the minute, with ever more tools coming out and then again other tools that operate those tools for you.

    The one thing I hold onto, is that no matter how the situation evolves, the basic job requirements for software engineering, i.e. being smart and being able to learn quickly, will always be an advantage.
    I don't think it's possible to hold onto the confort zone from before, even if the industry implodes from the AI costs becoming transparent. But yeah, I do think we'll land on our feet in one way or another.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I’m not sure about specializing, but there’s a lot of stuff you can learn in the AI field that was useful before the current hype bubble and will remain useful going forward. Traditional ML is huge and doesn’t move quite as fast as e.g. LLM applications.

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  • [–] 18 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    The post misses a few things:

    1. The ai bubble is currently being subsidized to an unimaginable degree. If you were to actually pay true cost for your token usage, you wouldn't be saving that much over an engineer's salary. Probably even worse once AI companies start to extract a real profit. 95% of companies diving into agentic labor will be in for a rude awakening when they balance next year's budget.
    2. The cost to keep ai useful in its current form has a high floor. Unless you keep up with expensive training, your models will drift. You can only scale your model intelligence with more hardware (roughly). In two years, Claude opus 4.8 will still be bloating context to learn about the latest cloud platforms and libraries. A human engineer will get those passively at no cost to the company.
    3. As the complexity of the task grows the complexity of the ai babysitter must match it. Even if Ai stays cost effective, companies can now save money by spinning up bespoke in-house software to cut out vendors (think observability platforms, task tracking, product design, marketing systems, etc...). No matter how many adversarial reviews and sub agents you spin up, an Ai can't grasp the full context of your company and it's shifting priorities. The software engineer role transitions to a pseudo-sysadmin + product architect.

    C-suites don't want know about software and don't care about non functional requirements (security, availability, audit ability, etc...). They just want to wave a magic wand and have a product appear, which is what Ai provides the illusion of. That's why all current Ai software is garbage, but the smarter companies will catch on

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    A human engineer will get those passively at no cost to the company.

    Some human engineers. I still regularly have to explain Git to people that never bothered to learn.

    Also I think you are forgetting that AI is still improving and getting cheaper. Not super quickly, but even if it is too expensive now, is that still going to be true in 10 years? I doubt it.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    People kept saying same thing about self driving cars. Look where it will be in 5 to 10 years. 10 years later and … meh

    It’s expensive to keep those models trained. Investors won’t do this forever.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    It's not getting cheaper. Every new model has been getting more expensive. OpenAI and Anthropic both want to IPO, but that means they need to start trying to make a profit. Their prices have been going through the roof.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    It is getting cheaper to do the same thing. New models are more expensive but also more capable.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    But it's not getting cheaper to do the same thing. Models charge by the token the price per token is going up. They don't charge by the outcome.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    The price per token for the same model isn't going up (if you are paying per token anyway - I know they underpriced subscriptions).

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago

    Well frankly i think the field of eco terrorism is about to expand greatly so maybe start preparing for that.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I'm hoping the insanity calms down in the next year or so. I don't wanna have to give up weed to be able to start using my fallback option of my CDL but I'll be damned if I'm gonna take a job where I'm required to use LLM bullshit. not that I can even find that after 6 months of applying and not even a single recruiter followup, let alone any interviews.

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  • But I'm just another off-the-shelf engineer now. I have no domain expertise that another Sr. engineer steering an LLM cannot match.

    Funny because I think this is more important than ever. You can produce (ugly) code at remarkable pace now, being able to detect where it goes wrong is a very important skill nowadays.

    I still can't let it loose too much because of all the garbage it still produces when given too much freedom. I'm honestly annoyed that my colleagues use it that much on production code, because it's so much meh code with hidden (on the surface) inefficiencies and a lot of avoidable boilerplate and duplication.

    Then on the other hand I enjoy that it can create scripts (that are tedious to write) and prototypes at impressive speed. Generally prototyping and research has gotten quite enjoyable because you can stay most of the time on the theoretical side of things, quickly try things out or quickly get info to stuff you don't yet understand enough.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    Not sure I agree with the "three pillar" framing in this one. I think it's more like he was able to use the LLMs effectively because he had already built those years of experience. Someone new trying to vibe code their way into designing robust distributed systems is going to need a similar amount of time to build the correct intuitions, because the LLM doesn't give a shit one way or the other, it'll just do what's in the prompt.

    On the other hand, commodotizing domains that fit a repeatable pattern isn't so bad, is it? At work I sometimes have to remind people that we're generally just building CRUD apps to interact with data, which isn't exactly at the bleeding edge of software. I like the idea of software engineers getting to be more portable, but unfortunately the industry still thinks LLMs are going to replace most jobs, which is obviously not possible.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago

    I'm still employed and I see myself employed (at least in that company) for a foreseeable future.

    Hmm, well, ok. Moving on then

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago*

    Try to argue with the LLM evangelists, the inevitable brain damage it causes will let you get on disability.

    On one hand this is not the first hype cycle, on the other hand the other hype cycles didn't all fade. The inevitable bullshit brought on by vibecoding and shit like that is eventually going to be some kind of problem. People may or may not just ignore that problem, like most other issues in tech.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The world is changing. It happens from time to time. In this case the change is a particularly big one and it's still ongoing, so I can't make any predictions about where it's going to end. But I can be pretty confident that it's not going to magically change back. So my best advice is to try out the new tools, see whether you can adapt to them and use them to improve your own productivity in new ways, and if not then as a fallback start looking at other directions to take your career.

    Harsh, perhaps, but the world does as the world does.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    Author of the blogpost seems to be fully engaged with that, but their worry is that they no longer have a professional edge over the competition because LLMs let less experienced people do all the stuff they spent years developing expertise in:

    Of course, I'm still employable because someone has to review the code and steer the robot. But I'm just another off-the-shelf engineer now. I have no domain expertise that another Sr. engineer steering an LLM cannot match. All my finance and payment domain expertise, all the debugging intuition and distributed system knowledge earned through hours of sweat and tears, is now promptable.

    We were taught that generalists and specialists will always have their roles. But now the market is shaping everyone into becoming a generalist. That's not a bad thing per se, until you look under the economics of supply and demand: if everyone is a generalist, the price of a generalist falls if there's no demand to match. And we all know the demand is drying up.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    The only thing to do is ride the wave of the new technology. You either do that or drown. I've written a literal book's worth of text on how AI should think and behave when writing software and it straight up cannot write code as well as me when left to its own devices, even with all my guidance. LLMs, no matter the size, are structurally incapable of holding all the context needed to write good code in complex systems because they cannot compress complex topics into ideas they've never encountered and reason about the compressed state with their limited reasoning capacity (otherwise known as "learning").

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    It's a tool, for me atm it's like spellcheck and google had a baby

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Time to learn a trade. Sometimes some industries just don't mesh with the changing world.

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  • [+] -31 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Y'all Software engineers went out to become programmers and made upwards of 300k a year as entry level job. Now you have a tough time like the rest of the working population? What 70k a year not good enough anymore? Get fucked.

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  • [–] 20 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I feel you, but most of us don't work for silicon valley, in most countries the salaries are average to slightly above average, and being fired or forced to work with tools you don't want sucks, which is also a workers issue

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    +1 for a nuanced take. My America-as-default bias is strong and you rightfully call me out on that.

    I also notice this isn't the shitposting sub... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Even in the US I started at 65k which was normal back in the early 2010s for a junior dev. I didn't reach 6 figures until I'd been in the industry for 5 or 6 years, after changing jobs and then getting promoted. It's not that different from other stem jobs.

    It's a good job and I can't complain much, but the Ivy League brats who bragged about their ridiculous starting salaries created a false impression of the industry. They were always a tiny minority and they're basically non-existent now.

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    [+] -14 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)
  • 4 comments in c/hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se view that post
    [–] 22 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Am I the only one that has noticed the massive increase in buggy software across almost every domain? Like, EVERYTHING has so many more bugs now. Things just break constantly. AI isn’t one shotting fixing bugs, it’s one shotting making hundreds of new ones.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    No, I have noticed that too, but I think that issue is two fold; Just before the AI bullshit started development was already well on its way to being the new welding. I went from regularly working with other people with CS degrees to regularly having to corral super juniors who just finished 6 weeks at a vo-tech summer coding crash course right after high school on the exact same software stack. I think part of the issue is that the code the AIs were trained on was already slipping in quality because they are just the latest salvo in the devaluation of development as a career not the beginning of it.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    I can't speak on the rate of buggy software increasing, though it makes sense since the barrier to entry has dropped, however LLMs are now also finding bugs at a much larger scale than ever before.
    We're seeing decade old bugs being found, popular software suddenly releasing hundreds of bug fixes at once. It's a double edged sword.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    What he describes is exactly what I’m seeing as well. But I also think his last section emphasizes the importance of having a human steer the ship. If you think LLMs are sycophantic when they talk to you, the Code Review Agents / LLMs are doubly so for their own work “dev bot: you asked me to do x so that’s what I did.” QA bot “I can verify that you asked dev bot to do x and that’s exactly what it did” - Humans have to be in the mix to ensure that a) the code is organized and not recursive spaghetti and b) that the software actually does what you wanted it to do both from the front and backend.

    The AI does homogenize some of the playing field, but experts are still needed who understand the intent of the software. I wouldn’t trust an AI dev to conform to all GAAP standards. They can help inform code and even provide the documentation, but ultimately a human needs to validate the deliverables.

    And if you thought agents were bad at updating legacy code, just see what they can do with their own code when you ask it to add 50 + features that weren’t in the original request. 🤯

    So, let me give some advice to others entering into this industry. The way I see it, there are going to be 2 distinct paths in software moving forward.

    1. be customer facing - product management is going to be merged with implementation consulting. These will be the “private eyes” who understand how a customer is using the software, understands the enhancements, the bugs, etc and also trains the customer how to use the software. With how fast AI can now code, it will be interesting to see if we go back to a world where everything is bespoke and disparate (like those homegrown access dnd back in the day) - I certainly hope not or if we’ll stick with platform “COTS” software (think SAS, Intuit, workday, Kronos, Maximo, etc). I’m any case, customers will request more customization because they’ll start to realize it’s now much easier to customize. These “private eyes” will be who informs the developers and helps structure how the updates can work within the platform framework. I think the era of product management and implementation being separate careers is dead.

    2. The development architects. These will be the folks who take in the inputs from the customer facing team and determine the best way to build it into the architecture. They’ll have a legion of agents that they control: research, development, QA, technical documentation. Each architect will be in charge of a district product line. You need people who are experts in their domain to do this work. And these people once again become those developer unicorns that were once (and in some cases still are) the backbone of software companies. Your developer will now be doing the work that a team of 5-10 people would have done in the past. But that should also mean that we should be able to employ more of these brilliant architect types.

    ——

    What I struggle with long term, however, is why do we need system software at all? People notoriously hate entering info into systems. They may want to see the data in fancy graphics and infographics, but no one wakes up in the morning and goes “I’m really looking forward to doing all that data entry today.” Humans are also notoriously bad at updating where they are within workflows - we tend to work in the physical realm and update the software as time allows. Agents can and will do a lot of this work moving forward. And they’ll do it (if the systems are built with standards in mind) more consistently than any human would have - a person will just need to validate the data governance. This is how we get to the world of Star Trek, where the computer does the technological lifting and humans do the the human interaction bits. I think (but not sure - do we go back to mainframes???) that databases will still be needed. But software workflows can all be dialed in through training the LLMs. I’m already starting to see it with some of the tools available, but right now it’s very Wild West - at some point once we get the horse back under us, there will need to be standards built in, rather than each person doing it just a little bit differently and therefore getting slightly different results.

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