mindbleach comments on LLMs are eroding my software engineering career and I don't know what to do

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (14 children)

Woo-woo nonsense. Indefensible without invoking the supernatural.

Everyone you've ever met is a meat robot, and they run on physics. How they feel about it does not change that.

And I already said, we invented p-zombies. LLMs display intelligence without consciousness. Your hand-wavy what-if doesn't work as a gotcha because we're already there. Nonetheless - these shortfalls are a big fucking hint that magic isn't real.

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (13 children)

they run on physics

that's precisely what I'm saying

LLMs display intelligence without consciousness

That's precisely what I'm saying

doesn’t work as a gotcha

Nobody said anything about a gotcha

magic isn’t real.

Nobody said anything about magic.

If consciousness is a physical process, then a different physical process (such as an intelligent process running on different hardware) cannot be assumed to produce the same result (the result of conscious experience).

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (12 children)

Like planes don't experience flight unless they flap.

This is stupid. I acknowledge that's not an airtight logical counterargument, but just, come the fuck on. You are asserting that neurons made of silicon, with identical observable function, wouldn't count somehow. Charitably: wouldn't work, somehow. That at least distinguishes it from standard Chinese Room horseshit. But if we can fake every neuron to do the same thing, or simulate the entire physical environment to do the same thing, of fucking course it's going to do the same thing. If the laws of the universe somehow mean only meat can experience being a true Scotsman, we can fake those laws.

You've picked a philosophical nit that is somehow at odds with Turing completeness. Unless you think physics are incomputable - it cannot matter what substrate they run on. It's literally math.

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (11 children)

Like planes don’t experience flight unless they flap.

Are you claiming that planes experience flight?

This is stupid.

come the fuck on

neurons made of silicon

Two problems with this: (1) The virtual neural net of LLMs don't have neurons made of silicon. Their neurons are virtual, abstract, not physical phenomena. (2) Even if we move to the idea of a positronic brain like Data from Star Trek or the Terminator, it still isn't our chemical-electrical brain which has different physical properties. This is very simple. It is a different physical object. It is different. It is not what we are.

Chinese Room horseshit

simulate the entire physical environment to do the same thing

If you are simulating it, it is a different thing.

It’s literally math.

This is a metaphysical assumption much closer to the "woo" that you keep accusing me of, and cursing at me about.

it cannot matter what substrate they run on

This contradicts your statement that "It's literally math" because you can calculate the difference between substrates.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago* (10 children)

If you are simulating it, it is a different thing.

No.

If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real. That's qualia, numbnuts. That is a mind.

I'm not gonna pick apart the word salad of 'calculating the difference between substrates' if you can't even keep your philosophy straight.

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (9 children)

numbnuts

If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real.

You're just throwing the assumption of experience into the sentence for no reason. You have beliefs about this stuff, not facts.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (8 children)

Do you know what if means?

You want to make this a matter of philosophy, and then you suck at philosophy. Hey buddy, do you have facts about other real people's experiences, or do you just have beliefs? Could you even demonstrate your own conscious experience to me?

And all of this is such tired Philosophy 101 crap, just so you can cling to 'aha but what if,' even though I have a concrete answer for what-if. Are we ruling out magic? Great, then physics can be simulated and a computer can host a mind that way. Its experiences would be identical to any free-range meatbag. If it wrote a book, you could read it. That would be real art. So in what fucking manner is its consciousness not real experience?

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (7 children)

Hey buddy

Hello.

you suck at philosophy

When you said, "If a simulated person experiences consciousness, that experience is real", you're just saying "If my statement is true then my statement is true." You offer no basis for assuming that "a simulated person experiences consciousness" in the first place. You are simply assuming it. Your whole side of this entire conversation is just an assumption.

physics can be simulated

Yes and the simulation is a different physical process than the process that it's simulating.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 5 months ago (6 children)

'If it happens, it counts' is not a tautology when you insist happening and counting are different things. To the guy in the simulation, any experience is real. His consciousness entails all the processes you insist must be accounted for. It works the exact same way as it does in real life with real meat.

If you would insist 'well that's only simulating consciousness' - that counts.

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

To the guy in the simulation, any experience is real.

Again, you have no basis for claiming that there is experience in the simulation in the first place. If you set up some simulation to mimic human behavior there's no reason to assume that it is experiencing that behavior. You're putting an assumption here.

If you would insist ‘well that’s only simulating consciousness’ - that counts.

I never insisted that it's "only simulating consciousness." I'm rejecting the baseless assertion that consciousness is what's being simulated. If you simulate the physical processes that we associate with consciousness (neural networks), even if it produces enough observable behaviors that we find the model useful, it is still a different physical thing and therefore we are unable to assert that it is experiencing consciousness.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago* (4 children)

Simulating physics from first principles is not "mimicking human behavior." Don't dismissively phrase it like a chatbot. If you insist the exact molecular exchanges in human neurons are a mandatory component, you could observe every subatomic event, not just the fact they talk to you like any other meatbag on the street.

I never insisted that it’s “only simulating consciousness.”

You just did! Again! You think an entire simulated human being, that acts exactly like a living person for the same underlying reasons, must be different - somehow. Your consciousness only arises from the laws of physics and the shape of matter, but if we simulated both of those exactly, and got indistinguishable results, then nuh-uh.

This is dualism. This is Descartes torturing dogs and insisting they only act like they feel pain, unlike us real humans, because we're different and special. It's straight-up Chinese Room horseshit, where no demonstrable evidence of conscious thought is enough, unless it fits your preconceived notions of what minds look like.

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

Simulating physics from first principles is not “mimicking human behavior.”

Our "first principles" are knowledge, not a new universe. You're not absolutely re-creating the entirety of reality. You're making a model that is useful, something that is "good enough" that it will produce outputs that can be used to roughly predict the outcome of real processes.

You think an entire simulated human being, that acts exactly like a living person for the same underlying reasons, must be different - somehow

No matter how detailed your simulation is, it's still physically different. You're admitting this every time you call it a simulation. You can tell the difference between a simulation and the thing it's simulating.

This is dualism

No, because I'm saying that consciousness is a physical process. You're saying that it's a mathematical process and that the substrate doesn't matter. I'm saying the substrate is a physical thing, and that consciousness is a physical processes, and so different substrates enable different physical processes. I don't claim that consciousness comes from some Beyond, or from Heaven, or from God. I'm saying it's a physical process, and that a simulation is a different physical process, no matter how detailed.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

You can tell the difference between a simulation and the thing it’s simulating.

The premise is - you fucking can't. It acts ex-act-ly like the real thing, and for all the same reasons. Given that unreasonably high standard, you still insist, nuh uh. Would never be conscious. We're beyond 'but what if.' You're explicitly arguing that machine consciousness would not count. That any difference from exactly how humans work cannot be a mind. Fuck off. That's just novel bigotry. Dog-torturing prejudice.

If you can have a long-ass argument with someone and go away figuring they're a person like you - that's consciousness. That's the only way you can judge the inner life of any person you have ever met. And you want to pretend that someone meeting that standard, while you observe their brain at a subatomic level, is disqualified? Come back and fuck off again.

You cannot laud the perfect exactitude of... squishy biology and quantum foam... and still say nuh-uh when a whole-ass person arises from those exact processes. If you mean anything when you say it's all just physics, then whatever physics are required for consciousness, can be faked. The resulting person really does think, as surely as an emulated calculator does real math. It's not simulating math. It's doing math. The device is simulated, but the answers are real. Get it?

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[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

The premise is - you fucking can’t. It acts ex-act-ly like the real thing, and for all the same reasons

You literally made the simulation, so yes you can tell the difference. And the math is inevitably different, because the math of the simulation includes the math which defines the different substrate. So it is physically different, a different thing. Assume whatever you want, but in the end it is a physically different thing, and it takes different math to fully describe it. We only know for sure that conscious experience happens with this substrate.

Fuck off

Dog-torturing prejudice.

fuck off again

good bye

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 point 4 months ago

the math of the simulation includes the math which defines the different substrate

2+2 on an emulated calculator gets a different answer than 2+2 on a real one, because there's different math. Math being physics in this case but not when it undercuts your whole point. Conscious experience must only be possible in this substrate, despite zero evidence to the contrary... and faking the entire substrate with physics math doesn't count because numbers work differently in rocks than in meat.

If telling you to shut up is redundant then good riddance.

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