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In first, California city overwhelmingly votes to permanently ban datacenters (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 5 months ago by to c/fuck_ai@lemmy.world
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[–] 24 points 5 months ago (1 child)

Nice. Now for everywhere else on earth.

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    [–] 59 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Will the billionaires let them do this?

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (3 children)

    You can be sure Monterey Park didn’t have any data centers to begin with. They aren’t exactly in every town. And there’s no shortage of towns ready to line up for data center money. I’m sure this town will be fine.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    I don't understand why you said the first bit, nowhere had data centres to begin with.

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    • [–] 68 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    It's going to be really, really frustrating watching Democrats campaign in support of AI companies this fall.

    But this is a good reminder. Your only power now is local, so take an interest in your neighborhood and fight for it.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    What happens when they get built anyway. Would it be legal to burn them down.

    Because a lot places voters voted to not allow them and they get built anyway.

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  • [–] 22 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    It won't ever be legal, but I don't think that's going to matter. These data centers are threatening hundreds of communities' basic survival, and there are so many people in this country that are struggling and ready to snap.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    There is an extremely good reason why the government is preemptively getting a rubber stamp with "technology extremist terrorists" written on it ready. They know how fraught things are getting

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    Also just to add but when the current financialized system finally implodes it's gonna make things a whole lot worse and make people a whole lot more volatile. Personally I think either the SpaceX or OpenAI IPO will cause it, either those or some type of supply chain failure kinda a coin flip IMO.

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    • [–] 32 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Hamilton, ON, blocked a land severance designed to allow development of a datacenter yesterday.

    Among the lies from the developers:

    $3.8B in economic activity

    23,000 new jobs. (hilarious)

    The centre would only be used for data storage...sure, which is why it was planning to use 10mW of power and suck cooling water from Lake Ontario.

    But the big question is whether Doug Ford will waddle in and let them build anyway.

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    • [–] 31 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Monterey Park is the city in California, in case anyone else is wondering.

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    • [–] 89 points 5 months ago (36 children)

    Great, now do the whole state.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I could see a reasonable statewide zoning law but a statewide ban? You’ve got to be kidding. Tech is one of California’s biggest industries. We’re just going to NIMBY the problem onto someone else?

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    We’re just going to NIMBY the problem onto someone else?

    As is tradition.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Yup. Also traditional: the blind hypocrisy of using a tech product that routes through a data center to call for a total ban on data centers.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    I think Tennessee took a small step in the right direction: datacenters must pay for electrical system improvements they need. In theory no impact to the existing customers. However o believe they forgot the part about adhering to energy and pollution regulations (in case red states have any). They shouldn’t be allowed to set up coal burners for example.

    Just like anything else, datacenters don’t have to be a bad thing. The bad part is our economic system letting them externalize the costs onto everyone else

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  • [+] -23 points 5 months ago (29 children)

    So the 280-300 in the state currently that do nice things like let the internet happen, let 911 calls go through, allow universities do research on diseases, hold cancer patient records, and show California residents Lemmy should....what? Go away?

    An absolutist view of anything is typically a terrible idea. You don't even know which very specific class of large data center you are "against."

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Pretty sure the user is talking specifically about AI data centers. We could even be more precise and say LLM datacenters.

    I haven't read the article so I don't know if the legislation makes a distinction. If not, it should. But a state-wide ban on LLM datacenters is a good idea. A nationwide ban on them would be a good idea, if it were politically feasible at this time.

    Not only is it a bubble economy based on pure speculation, and doomed to collapse catastrophically at some point, as well as putting a pinch on critical supply chains such as for compute hardware, but California has areas that are facing water shortages and they certainly don't need big tech building giant new data centers that will hog all this water for cooling while polluting what's left.

    Not to mention global warming and society's outdated reliance on fossil fuels making these giant computers a terrible idea. Not only does it make electricity more expensive for residential consumers, while increasing the amount of fossil fuels being burned and the CO2 being put into the atmosphere, but the computer hardware alone creates so much heat that it has a measurable effect on the temperature of the area around it.

    I could go on. There's lots of reasons to be opposed to new LLM datacenters. And it seems kinda disingenuous to deflect by categorizing them with every other kind of datacenter. Those other kinds of datacenters aren't the ones people are talking about.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Look, let's start at the source. The measure in a small, dense suburbia town was to ban "data centers." All of them. All kinds, all types.

    https://ballotpedia.org/Monterey_Park,_California,_Measure_NDC,_Prohibit_Data_Centers_Measure_(June_2026)

    I've been to Monterey Park several times. It's nice. But it's just LA suburbia. Very rational to expect problems from any building being turned into a data center to be right up on top of mostly residential areas.

    So, now you're talking about not just making a leap as to what the commenter meant, but also that they were taking about something else because they were misinformed.

    I get not wanting LLM only data centers. I agree. Put those fuckers in orbit as far as I'm concerned. I actually love that idea. But data centers have been necessary utilities for decades. They're not new. They're not innovative. They let you organize online. They let you call you granny. They show you cat videos. They save lives, and other than very recent LLM needs did more good than harm in the grand scheme of things.

    I'm asking you to just understand that the thing you've only just heard about it used for lots of things, and has been around for years.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Keeping them out of residential areas and limiting their impact on municipal utilities seems prudent.

    Trying to evade regulations by hiding it in a subdivision isnt cool.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (12 children)

    It's a classic knee jerk from commenters who don't know what they are talking about.

    A tale as old as time.

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  • [+] -16 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    Hate for hate's sake.

    Certainly a lovely way to live life. /s

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  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Everyone hates AI. Takes an AI company CEO to not notice.

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  • [+] -6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

    Fun fact: data centers existed and were incredibly important pieces of digital infrastructure long before LLMs were publicly available. You don't even know what a data center does apparently.

    Nor do you realize that my comment isn't about the virtues of data centers or what happens in them, but rather, having a massively under-informed opinion based largely on emotions. Hate for the sake of hate. That's what MAGA people do. You're really doing to double down and tell me that "oh, well, not me, I'm not like that" with a straight face?

    Downvote all you like, it doesn't make your heart kind, or your mind work better.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago* (4 children)

    We actually have very good reasons to be telling society destroying tech speculators to take their "but muh inovashions" "diruptions bro" and fuck off and die in a slit trench.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    But you do realize that un-innovative, plain old data centers not for bots and AI are a thing, right?

    You literally can't throw your opinion at me without them.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Very ironic you are saying that on a federated social media platform with no data centers.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago*

    I think you meant to say that to the absolute anti-data center person, not me. I'm trying to explain that not all data centers are for LLMs and therefore killing the planet at hyperspeed.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, but the scale of the current set of data centers has gotten to a point where they are becoming a problem for the communities they inhabit. If data centers stayed at the consumption levels they did decades ago, I don't think we'd be seeing organized political action against them.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    I'm aware of that, but at some point it's also like when the Ming Dynasty destroyed their naval fleet for political reasons. They still needed a normal navy for even local maritime trade. They killed it all and caused (in a reductive sense) a 200 year depression.

    We still need data centers for literally a million things that aren't LLMs. And personally, I'm 100% on board to shoot that LLM shit into orbit. Get your solar from the source and fuck off.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Don’t feel bad - you just dared to bruise their favorite “AI BAD” narrative with practical facts. Sometimes this place really is just an echo chamber to shout idiotic wishes into the dark instead of a forum for actual discussion.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Thanks for the message. I don't feel bad that other people have no idea how their own lives work. It's kind of sad to some degree, but how many people know how their car engine or phone work? Relatively few.

    Personally, it's just crazy how MAGA-like it all is, the emotional groupthink.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Zip it, Hanloser.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    lol, I see I struck a cord ;)

    Tell me how many data centers existed in the world in 2016. Then tell me how many ran LLMs. Then if you give me a pie chart of what those 2016 data centers were used for, I might mail you a cherry pie. (warning, it will get smashed and gross and spoil before it gets to you)

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    "look how many plantations were actually cotton monoculture and get back to me before you have opinions about the Confederacy"

    • a Very Smart person
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  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, that's not the same.

    But so it sounds like you're full on anti-technology and anti-internet. I would genuinely love to know how you arrived at that decision. My Mom is sort of the same way, so it's intriguing to me how non-MAGA folks reach the same point.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I was a PM in Google's ad system for a decade.

    I may be well be every bit as familiar as you (or more)with what datacenters were doing in 2016, and the business processes they supported. One of my most skilled coworkers had previously been at the NSA.

    I quit for a reason.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    I picked 2016 arbitrarily, but for what it's worth, you know why I selfhost and de-Googled my life.

    Honest question: have you ever talked with a therapist or counselor about your past and anger? Not saying your anger isn't warranted or valid. Not at all. But anger can be a drug and a boost and a survival tool until it turns you into a survival tool for itself.

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    • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    My fucking idiot neighbors would say, "bUT ThE jObBBs!"

    They're just against anything that sounds vaguely "liberal".

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    Speaking from experience here, there are vastly more people employed just to build datacenters than there are to fully staff one. Hundreds of engineers, consultants, general contractors and construction laborers to build the datacenter versus maybe a dozen people at best to staff a football field sized datacenter. If datacenters go away those builders will still have jobs because they'll just pivot to building schools or hospitals or whatever else is needed at the time. Heck, even the IT guys who work on the racks could pivot and find another role somewhere else.

    The only people who will be out of a job when the AI bubble pops are the hucksters pushing it.

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    • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    wonder if that will change if Xavier becomes the next governor since hes a full on DINO corporate shill,.

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  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Sadly the alternatives aren’t any better. Rather they are objectively worse.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Found the becerra voter. Steyer is unquestionably better. All I ever hear from haters is that he's a billionaire but if you ever look at their policies and debates then you'll see he outright wins

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  • [+] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    Look at the endorsements becerra have. Full of big oil and baby killers. So much money has been spent on an anti-Steyer campaign, it's batshit crazy. Sure, you want Becerra, just say you want an establishment do-nothing-democrat.

    Ohh noo, the progressive is a billionaire, let's vote for an establishment baby killer but at least he's a minority.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (1 child)

    steyr is a little wish washy, but his messaging has been consistent, xavier seems to flip alot, and is corporate sell out, he seems alot worst than everyone else. CALI like NYC seems to choose someone worst over a progressive(likely has to do with dino/billionaire funded campaigns)

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    • [–] 10 points 5 months ago*

    Good they should go where there's cheaper land value and the water flows downstream from where I live! Also any traffic needed for construction should be diverted to the point it doesn't affect my day to day.

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    [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    For any kind of industrial facility I've always felt like whosoever is most directly responsible for the safety and negative externalities of the facility should be required to live in the area most affected by them.

    You responsible for safety at a chemical plant, our ass gets to live wherever will be most hit by a spill of whatever your most deadly product or reagent is.

    You responsible for a data center, you get to live where the water and power issues are most felt.

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    [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    NIMBY in action (but far more palatable than usual)

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    [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Thanks for your input, anyway....

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    [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Everyone liked that.

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    [+] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    That's the essential thing that is so dangerous about democracy to the elites/ruling classes. It's why there has been such a strong push for fascism/authoritarianism in the recent decade. The ting is- if we don't like our laws we can change them. We can remake fucking society- it's all just made by people

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    • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    California City? The failed city with a few thousand residents max and thousands more roads that lead to non-existent suburbs? That California City?

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    • [–] -1 points 5 months ago

    This is just like with the crypto mining. Energy market regulations are made by idiots, so it's easier to just ban the business altogether than charge them more for electricity and other resources

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    [+] -71 points 5 months ago (16 children)

    Its crazy how radicalized Americans have gotten towards Data centers. Very inorganic in my opinion.

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  • [–] 35 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    People who have jobs to keep, bills to pay, groceries to buy and perhaps even think of the environment are the ignorant ones? Okay buddy. 👌

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  • [+] -21 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I suspect you read "inorganic" as "ignorant". What GP is saying is þey believe it's not grass-roots activism.

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, but their point still stands. You can easily make the argument that the backlash against AI and datacenters is specifically driven by people with

    jobs to keep, bills to pay, groceries to buy and perhaps even think of the environment

    And I don't see how the backlash is inorganic. You have a new tech being shoved down peoples' throats that is dog shit at most tasks and passable at some, which is being used to justify layoffs, make workers that keep their jobs work harder, drives up electricity costs, made computer parts unreasonably expensive, uses stupid amounts of power and water to train and outright takes any digital data not nailed down to increase the training data so it can generate shit like revenge porn, deep fakes and CSAM on major social media sites.

    If anything, I'm honestly surprised the backlash isn't stronger and more widespread. But given the politicians this country is electing, I can only assume it's because a large fraction of us are dumber than fucking bricks and brainlessly parrot anything their media daddies tell them.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I didn't say I agreed wiþ þem. Personally, I don't see who'd be behind an inorganic effort. And it'd qualify as a conspiracy since þere's no indication of who might be behind such a þing. Who has enough money and is motivated to wage a faux grass roots campaign to kill AI data centers? I don't see it.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Who has enough money and is motivated to wage a faux grass roots campaign to kill AI data centers?

    AI scammers are using AI to generate anti-datacenter slop. Because they get money from engagement. - 404media

    But the cast majority of the backlash is more organic than not, since they're just jumping on the bandwagon

    I don't see it.

    Cuz you're looking at the wrong side of the money

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  • [–] 42 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Why? Almost all large constructions with local impact has some NIMBY movement. In addition, all these datacenters are ultimately backed by the Epstein-class with the end game to replace you. Action on the national level may be lost, but on the local level things can still be done.

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  • [–] -5 points 5 months ago

    In the long run I don't think it would matter that much. They would just move it elsewhere potentially in someone's else backyard but the infrastructure will still run by you and the effects/consequences are still the same. A nice looking backyard doesn't matter when everything around it is on fire.

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  • [–] 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    A very specific type of data center called a scaleable private data center -- mainly used by one entity, one private purpose, designed to be infinity sized-up. Not to be confused with other valuable purposed data centers. Some examples include...

    • telecommunications public sector (911, gov't, schools, local tv & radio)
    • telecommunications private sector (global phone, tv, radio, satellite uplinks)
    • internet services (aws, cdn, db, backends)

    You can generally tell which is which. A properly planned civil infrastructure takes years or decades to plan. The other is a rush "fly-by-night" build.

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