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[–] 146 points 6 months ago (13 children)

When I was young, I was naive to the ways of romance, and especially romantic communication. I was often oblivious to advances made upon me, and awkward and unskilled at making any expression of interest without just looking a bit foolish. However, after a lot of experience and many ups and downs in the pursuit of love, I find that I am no longer young.

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  • [–] 58 points 6 months ago* (8 children)

    Men are dense and women are indirect.

    I know these are generalities, but it's sooo freakin common that it's a well-known trope.

    I'd actually go a step further and say that it's not so much that men are "dense" as it is that they are full of self-doubt...I.e., seeing the advances, knowing they are there, but not believing that they are actually intended for them, or it's a joke/prank, or for whatever other reason, they convince themselves that it's not an advance and they are misinterpreting.

    IANAD, but I'd guess this has more to do with mens mental-health awareness than anything else.

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  • [–] 34 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    It's a trope, but it's also supposedly "well known" that men are horny bastards who think with their dicks... yet somehow we have these the two very opposing scenarios.

    Personally, despite a rather distinct lack of interest from the "fairer sex" prior to college, I found that plenty of women were more interested in sex than me in later years and not particularly subtle about it, which was actually off-putting as I wanted a relationship with a bit more substances. A lot of guys I know were in the same boat. Sex was easy. Finding somebody who actually wanted to do activities together was quite hard.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago

    Something I've noticed in myself, maybe because of the lack of interest from women at a younger age, is that women will almost throw themselves at you sometimes. Like, yeah I get it, I'm down for that too, but I won't be able to make it move for you if I don't know you ma'am.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

    The tropes are projection.

    The people who say that shit are almost always... the ones who do that shit. Every woman I know whines about shallow horny non-committal men... was talking about her own behavior and just blaming men for it. whenever they would meet a new guy they would go off about his looks and his money and other shallow traits, and then they would say they knew he wouldn't commit but they didn't care and would date him anway, and then if he didn't commit she'd be so upset, but if he did commit... she'd dump him because there was 'something wrong with him'. etc etc

    Just like dudes who complain about shallow gold diggers... are mostly shallow gold diggers themselves.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    Every woman I know whines about shallow horny non-committal men...

    This really seems like some sort of cognitive bias, maybe Clustering Illusion?

    She sees the horny non-committal men because they make obvious advances towards her (and, for that matter, she reciprocates).

    The results of how men behave when she makes the first move, is first limited to the men she makes a move on first. That sounds confusing as hell but I don't know how else to write it.

    I don't really want to figure out the ( n(n-1) / n) number of potential outcomes between which person makes an advance first, whether or not they are (interested/reciprocate; not interested/do not reciprocate; do not notice), and then further how the originator reacts and the outcome of the interaction.

    Needless to say, though, I imagine the number of men who do not reciprocate on her "first move", either intentionally or not, would be significantly bottlenecked by the amount of people with whom she makes the first move to begin with.

    There's also the coy/flirty method of "playing hard to get" vs a lack of interest being interpreted as such.

    Relationships are complicated.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    It's not that complicated, it's because she's attracted to those men and she regard healthier attitudes as unattractive in men. A lot of people have warped attitudes about romantic relationships and are repulsed by healthy people and seek out problematic ones.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Or maybe he just wasn't in the mood? Despite the tropes, men don't want sex ALL the time, and just like women don't want to be responsible for the feelings of men, we don't want to always be responsible for quelling the insecurities of women. This doesn't even have to be a gendered thing. No one wants to be the only source of validation for their partner. Often we hope they are on some level emotionally mature and self assured.

    OP was doing the person equivalent of a cat walking across your keyboard because you were typing instead of petting.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    or it's that the risk involved isn't worth it.

    because for every woman who 'is sending you signals' 7/10 of them will actually not be, and 2/10 of them will be, but deny it, and 1/10 will actually be happy you got the signal.

    not to mention one woman's 'signal' is another's ignore you, is another's just being friendly, is another's desperately trying to passively tell you to fuck off. there is no consistency because every woman is different.

    and plenty of women will up sleep with you, tell you they love you, want to be with you, and then laugh in your face and ask you why you thought she was ever interested a few days later. which is a total mindfuck.

    as a man, who are you supposed to make any sense of any of that? you can't. so you just learn to ignore it all and focus your efforts on ladies who are clear with their intentions and behaviors... of which there are not a lot, and if you find one you marry her.

    many people are totally inconsistent, straight up lie, and are otherwise unclear about what they want and who they are to the opposite sex.... because SEX.

    a lot of people engaged in compeltely different personalities and behaviors when sex becomes involved. hence why their friends can't understand why they 'struggle' with romantic partners... well because the person they are to their friends is totally different.

    personally, i've always been SHOCKED at how radically different some of my gfs would behave around their friends vs around me or in public. it was like they were a completely different person. Stuff they'd tell me they hated, they told their friends they loved, etc.

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  • [–] 84 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    For real tho, what is the name of that doc?

    Also. Is Melissa single?

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  • [–] 46 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Would also love to know the doc, lol.

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  • [–] 40 points 6 months ago

    If someone is actively engaged with something, you have to break their attention. I feel like people need to learn more about dissociation and blacksmithing.

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  • [–] 64 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    be more interesting than medieval sword making.

    no, sex isn't the answer. probably reading a book on medieval history and telling him about it is.

    it always baffles me how many women i have dated... have no interests or passions, and seem to look down on people who do.

    and the women i have dated who did have passions and interests... were way way more attractive and more fun to spend time with, because they didn't expect me to entertain them.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    be more interested in medieval sword making.

    no, sex isn't the answer. probably reading a book on medieval history sword making and telling him about it is.

    it always baffles me how many women i have dated... have no interests or passions in medieval sword making, and seem to look down on people who do.

    and the women i have dated who did have passions and interests in medieval sword making... were way way more attractive and more fun to spend time with, because they provided the sauce for the video on it.

    ...ftfy

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  • [–] 31 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    "Men are disgusting! They only think about one thing sex medieval sword making!" /s

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  • [–] 24 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Sometimes a man is just tired, you know?

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Have you tried laying next to your boyfriend while making a sword?

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  • [–] 19 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Bit of a tangent and a big YES I am a giant fucking nerd - but I do text based roleplaying. People online don't know my actual gender (chick) since I'll play anything. One huge thing I noticed when playing a dude is a lot of the women would just kinda be there and try to be sexy hoping I would do something.

    They didn't all write like that, and I still had a few guys to starfished, so to speak, but goddamn YOU NEED TO ENGAGE ME. If I wanted something pretty, I would look at a painting. I need an activity.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

    "I put on my robe and wizard hat (and pray that you're not watching a documentary on wand making.)"

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I see you're familiar with my technique.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    "I am indeed. NOW I CAST LVL 99 EROTICISM. Nothing happens...

    ... I know I'm a fraud bb! I know who you are: you're the great Wren of House Byrd, the mightest wizard of all the lands... I jus- I just wanted to be like you! And- and when I heard you were in town... 😭

    I reluctantly take off my robe and wizard hat. Then I bolt away running. Don't look at meee!"

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  • [–] 76 points 6 months ago (39 children)

    It sounds like hes respecting consent, just being in your underwear doesn't automatically mean you want him all over you and hes respecting that possibility.

    If I was playing a video game that I was super sucked into and focused on, and then a girl I was with still in her underwear sat next to me, I wouldn't assume it was an invitation to immediately begin sucking on her titties or something. I'd figure she just wanted to chill next to me in her undies.

    If you want to have sex: communicate that. He probably would have been down.

    ❤️ 1
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  • [–] 37 points 6 months ago (36 children)

    This situation isn't about consent; it's about seduction and attraction. It's not unrealistic that seeing your partner in their underwear might distract you from what you're doing and elicit an amorous response, and that's what she wants. There's no suggestion that that response would be anything but respectful of consent.

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  • [+] -7 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    what she wants is to be passive aggressive.

    chances are if he does show interest, she'll reject him. because that's what passive-aggressive people do, because it's all about power-games and manipulation.

    if she genuinely wanted attention, she'd ask for it. with her words. which is precisely the thing passive-aggressive people never do, because they are seeking to be aggrieved and upset for their minds and whims not being magically known by their partners.

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  • [–] 31 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Wanting a partner that shows active interest in you isn't passive agression it's totally normal. They just sound young and stupid and need to work on their communication skills

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago

    Maybe she does. But it's not actually uncommon for people to others to pick up on things without having to be explicitly told.

    chances are if he does show interest, she’ll reject him. because that’s what passive-aggressive people do, because it’s all about power-games and manipulation.

    This is incel-tier bullshit.

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  • [+] -10 points 6 months ago (31 children)

    Oh, because consent is about mind-reading?

    What she wears doesn't imply consent, except for when she wants it to (without communicating that), and then it's her boyfriend's failure as a man for not magically picking up on that?

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (26 children)

    It never implies consent, and she hasn't said it does, and hasn't implied it does. Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent. What do you think it involves? You think she wants him to climb aboard and start thrusting with no preamble? Can you imagine anything short of that that might make her happy?

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  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (25 children)

    Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent.

    What exactly do you think seduction is?

    I was under the impression that consent is required for pretty much everything. So what exactly do you expect him to do?

    "Hey, I noticed you're in your underwear. Does this mean you're propositioning me?"

    You can obfuscate all you want by code switching whenever it's convenient for you. "I'm horny, so nothing that I want right now requires consent" versus "I'm not in the mood right now, so if you even look at me without my consent I will hold a grudge against you for the rest of my life."

    Just don't be surprised when people stop putting up with your bullshit. The dude is probably focusing on his game because he doesn't feel like being teased, toyed with, and accused of heinous shit.

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago (24 children)

    "Hey, I noticed you're in your underwear. Does this mean you're propositioning me?"

    Rewrite this so it doesn't sound like it was written by chatgpt and you'd have an appropriate response, for example.

    Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever. The rest of your comment smells off. Stick to what's in the original if we're still talking about that, or else justify why what you're saying is realistic.

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  • [+] -7 points 6 months ago (23 children)

    Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever.

    Are you saying those things don't require consent? Because I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who would roast your ass on a spit for trying that without asking for permission first.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (17 children)

    Are these people in the room with us now?

    Seriously, I don't think those people actually exist. And if they do, I'm going to continue to ignore them and not ask permission every time I kiss or touch my partner, who will continue to do likewise to me.

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  • [–] -5 points 6 months ago* (15 children)

    Great, so after being gaslighted by society for years that all the ordinary social conventions I internalized earlier in life were actually some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, now I'm being gaslit that the people who were originally gaslighting me don't exist?

    Have I been MKUltra-ed?

    Are these people in the room with us now?

    No, they're all on r/feminism...

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    I believe what is being missed here in there are implied rules and agreements already in place in healthy relationships.

    For newer couples or people that are not yet a couple, having these conversations around consent is vital for building trust, intimacy, and respecting boundaries.

    For established couples, some things can be an entire conversation without an actual word being said, specifically because they’ve put in the time and work to lay those roads of understanding and listening. For instance, maybe your SO has a different wardrobe for intimate occasions as opposed to their regular cozy sleepwear. If they are wearing regular cozy sleepwear the implication would be that there is not an inherent green light on more intimacy in that moment.

    Also, on a side note consent can be still be something flirty/sexy but how it’s done matters too. I feel many people who have had their boundaries trampled or ignored are going to need more active reassurance and checking-in.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Then how come when I tried to explain that to people years ago everybody reacted as if I was trying to say it's okay to sexually assault your wife?

    And no matter how firmly I insisted that it's not the same thing, everyone simply told me that I'm the one who's wrong and need to accept that?

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago*

    Probably because you were speaking to a different audience years ago than the audience here. Alternatively, the way it was phrased could have been a bit different and was interpreted differently.

    If you’re in an audience of people that had previous bad experiences with consent being walked over, then many of those people are going to have their guards up to not get hurt again. I’m sure some people do want to be asked before any kiss or touch, even from a partner.

    Body language can tell quite a bit about what people are comfortable with as well, at least for people you’ve been in a relationship with for a good period already. There are times I can visibly tell my SO is irritated by something and I know, from past experience, that any sort of physical contact would be unwelcome in the moment.

    For some people and some relationships, consent for most things, in a relationship, is given implied consent unless said otherwise. For other people, it’s never implied unless explicitly stated. I believe many people in the later group have been hurt before and have walls up for a good reason. If you’re ever wondering where another person stands on this, it’s okay to ask the other person about their personal views.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Great, so after being gaslighted by society for years that all the ordinary social conventions I internalized earlier in life were actually some of the most heinous crimes imaginable

    What fucking reality do you live in?

    There is something so weird and off-putting when guys say shit like this.

    You make us all look bad.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Apparently a reality where literally everyone will insist on one thing to tell me I'm wrong, until I switch my position to be what all those people are telling me is correct, only for everyone to then continue to insist that I'm wrong and that the correct thing is exactly what I was saying originally.

    If that's not gaslighting, then I don't know what is. And don't tell me it's not really happening because it's happening right fucking now.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    And don't tell me it's not really happening

    Then I suppose this is the end of the discussion.

    I guess good luck not accidentally being a rapist? Or whatever?

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago

    See, there you go implying that I would blatantly and severely violate someone's consent. That's the same hyperbolic strawman that everyone else seems to use whenever I point out the issue with inconsistent messaging and mixed signals.

    I didn't say "forcing yourself on someone who's telling you no doesn't violate consent." I said "if you expect someone to magically know when you're consenting without actually telling them, then you want them to be a mindreader; especially if you also insist that consent needs to be explicitly stated every time."

    Those seem like mutually exclusive expectations, so why am I being gaslit that both are valid and that I'm the problem for not intuiting a way past the fundamental inconsistency?

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    No, they're all on r/feminism...

    Ah shit I was wrong. Shoulda known it was incel all along.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I'm an incel because people on r/feminism told me something that almost everyone here is now saying was wrong, and tore me a new asshole for insisting on precisely what everyone's else here is now saying is correct?

    Strange norms these days, it's a good thing I don't give a shit. I learned to get over petty insults when I was still in middle school...

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    people on r/feminism told me something that almost everyone here is now saying was wrong

    Smart money says you are incorrectly applying what they said to a totally different situation.

    Care to link to what you’re referring to?

    You seem like an incel because you can’t seem to understand that a relationship has different rules than when you’re getting to know someone.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago

    I don't bookmark every thread that pisses me off for future reference, and if you expected otherwise then that's just silly.

    Maybe it was r/askfeminists where someone had posted asking about relationship advice and I got skewered for saying something to the effect of people in relationships don't need to verbalize consent every time if they're on the same page. Which is exactly what people are now saying here.

    If you don't believe people on the feminist subreddits are like that, go over there and try having a reasonable discussion. I double-dog dare you.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

    Well, have you ever encountered one in real life? If not, best not to worry.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    Yes. Literally when I was in college. I even asked for consent super awkwardly, because that's what everyone said you're supposed to do. and even when someone said yes I still had to deal with accusations from her friends later because they decided after the fact that she didn't really mean yes and that I was supposed to somehow read her mind.

    How many times do I need to ask "Are you sure?" Before a yes counts as consent?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Leaning in for a kiss is not the same as kissing. It's really not difficult at all to be able to tell if she wants to reciprocate or not.

    Like goddamn, some people here really need to get laid.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    Err, you would get labeled a major creep if you try that with the wrong person. A majorngble that is

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    With the wrong person? Are we not talking about a person you're dating that is in bed with you, in underwear?

    Guys, if you're seeing someone and you're sharing a bed, and she's in her underwear, there is a pretty good chance that she would be ok with you kissing her. If she's not, it would be clear like the second you make the decision to try, and then you stop.

    And ask her why the fuck she's almost naked in your bed.

    I mean for fuck sake guys.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Welcome to another classic episode of “Troll or incel!”

    I’m going with troll for this one.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Welcome to another episode of "Not taking men's concerns seriously even when they're legitimately confused by all the mixed messages, double standards, and shifting expectations that are impossible to guess at any given moment!"

    I'm going to go with maybe I've been gaslit for years, and I bet people still won't treat that as valid.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    So to be clear, you are confused about.. what exactly?

    In what possible way would “mind reading” even be relevant to this discussion?

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Someone said the woman in the post is expecting advances from her boyfriend, but how is he supposed to know that? Everything I've heard for at least the past six years has been about how we're never supposed to assume advances would be welcome. So the mind-reading is required because the guy is expected to just know that she wants that, without her ever telling him so.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    Your sword is no match for me!

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  • [–] 56 points 6 months ago

    Hmm. A “hey” with three Ys and a smirk... I don’t think Melissa’s bf is the problem.

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  • [–] 15 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Time to lose the lingerie and put on a smiths apron

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  • [–] 30 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    "I have presented my flesh in his presence and that wasn't automatically rewarded. What am I doing wrong?"

    Have you tried... talking about shared interests? Being funny? Being charming and confident? Putting effort into romance? Like all the same advice that help men gain interest from women works the other way around too, you know? We're all human.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago* (6 children)

    have you dated recently?

    social media is rife with woman-o-sphere nonsense that basically tells women all they have to do is sit there and look pretty and embrace traditional gender roles and be totally passive. everyone freaks out abotu the manosphere, but the womanosphere is just as toxic... but you can't acknowledge how toxic it is it or you 'hate women'. because apparently if men are sexist douchebags, that's horrible, but if women are, it's their them expressing their freedom, or something.

    there has been a big shift in the past 5 years towards this stuff. I have noticed it a lot in dating, most women I meet now are incredibly passive and convinced that everything in the relationship is the man's responsibility.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    There's a lot of profiles now who outright say they expect you to plan the date, make the first move etc.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Have you tried talking to each other?

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago

    I’m sure men pay attention to her. Just not the men she wants, how she wants.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago

    Be interested, just a little bit, in what they're interested in. Like, you don't have to enjoy it, but show interest and they'll respond a lot more than if you make that a problem they have to choose over.

    I mean I might put down the doc simply because I can come back to it anytime, while the moment won't. But what would spark things more is if she asks me something simple about what had my focus.

    And this goes both ways. Paying attention to what your SO likes in any amount works so much better than making it something bad.

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