Anarchy is very cool, until someone has the wrong opinion.

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[–] 37 points 8 months ago

This is very true - I usually refer to it as "BOFH behavior". I think it stems from many people who end up hosting or moderating feeling that they themselves have been marginalised before so "now they're going to show them!".

A great example is a Mastodon instance where if you don't agree with the site's admin they'll block you at the server level instead of from their personal account. The belief is that if they have an opinion that opinion must then be enforced for everyone else under their control too.

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  • [–] 53 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Looking at you, leftymemes

    ugh

    groupthink central, do NOT divert an inch from the state sanctioned opinions, OR ELSE

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  • [–] 49 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It's all fun and games until you say that China is wearing socialism as a cloak the same way America wears Christianity or Israel wears anti-semitism.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    People's takes on China here are so clueless and weird.

    Xi is essentially a dictator at this point. Like Putin, he has systematiclly consolidated power over the years and increasingly removed any federation of government power that was more in line with socialist ideals and power structures. China was more socialist 30 years ago than it is today, and the USSR was far less centralized than Russia is now. But we can't let the facts get in the way of the ideals.

    Israeli's problem is also the same, the consolidation of power in a single person that increasingly fails to manifest the democratic ideas on which it argues its cultural superiority.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I’ve seen better moderation in .ml instances.

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Uh oh. One or the other found you, here comes the brigade!

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I’ve been brigaded by better instances.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Just tell them that moral absolutism benefits the status-quo.

    Because it's true. It does. I think it's actually a psyop by the capitalists to prevent socialism ever taking a foothold or affecting their money. Capitalists are afraid of positive incremental change, so they tricked leftists into being afraid of it too.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago (14 children)

    I have a pretty low opinion of moderators generally.

    In the vast majority of cases, the people who actually want to be moderators are precisely the worst kinds of people to do the job.

    Of course there are exceptions but all too often they're doing it because they like the power and attention.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    I think many people feel this way, and I think in many cases another thing that plays into it is not realising the amount of good moderators, because good moderation usually doesn't make as much noise as when it's bad.

    If I think of all the communities in lemmy/piefed I like, the perfect/near perfect moderation from my browsing heavily outweighs anything problematic.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    I remember I was an administrator, and the moderator threatened to ban me. That was fun, I was like "Oh no, please don't". And I just played along.

    As an administrator, I had only 2 modes: Not sure, can't ban this person without more evidence, and "that is a liability, shut down the server!". So I didn't react to most things that were done, even if they were technically against the rules. Then when I became the owner, I set a pol for people to decide if I should just delete the server, because I knew I didn't have the time to make sure some truly heinous stuff does not happen.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (9 children)

    How do you see overly heavy opinion based moderation if you're never the target of it? You don't. You just see communities that are weirdly same-think. Though I bet you'd just dismiss it as a consequence of the fediverse already self-selecting for a certain type, but that is wrong.

    There is bad moderation all over the place, but you don't see it, because many mods/admins prefer to ban and delete than to let the vote system do its job.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    That's why I rigorously review the modlog. Unlike Reddit or other social media, there is a public record of everything every mod does.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    and what happens when a mod or admin abuses their power? If the answer is only people whine about it, all you have is a minor step in the right direction and not an actual solution.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Lemmy/Piefed is far more resistant to bad actor community capture by a capricious moderator. Instance admins are usually far closer to the day-to-day operations and thus have their pulse on their communities in a way that reddit admins do not. Secondly, the federative nature of it means that any community can be replicated elsewhere.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    By noticing people complaining about it :) Also being aware of certain biases and such, and looking for the existence of posts that would be deleted if the bias was heavy, etc.

    Sure, some stuff might fall under the radar or stay for a long time, definitely a thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Nah, the complaints get deleted faster than the wrong-think. The point is you aren't given enough to 'notice' when the hammer comes down as it does in many communities here.

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  • [+] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Yeah that's fair.

    Being an administrator is different, you don't volunteer for that task because you like the attention.

    I’ve done it for decades and right now I’m not doing it at all because it’s too exhausting to have as a background thread with the rest of my family life.

    I feel this. I used to volunteer for some local groups but don't presently as I have a young family and it's all consuming.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I mean this may be decentralized but its still social media. Its gonna be a cesspool by nature of social media.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Some of those who moderate postses!

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Aannndddd..... people "wonder why" nothing changes, when THEIR pack/herd/tribe gains power, or when another's does: it just goes 'round & 'round & 'round, again.

    Until one has fundamentally altered one's own unconscious-mind,

    altering one's own nature,

    then the same nature as what created the problems we're caught-in, is all one has to wield.

    "physician, 1st heal thyself" is the key, but nobody's got the guts to enforce the deep transformation.

    ( & I'm saying that while having failed to break unconscious-ignorance from this-incarnation/life, thus-far, myself, for decades.

    It isn't easy, but if one never tries, it'll never have more than 0% chance of happening.

    it'd be easier in a culture which accepted such transformations as valid, fersure, but that got eradicated by materialism, didn't it? )


    aka Spot-on, Voidan@lemmy-dbzer0.com , spot-on.

    ( :

    _ /\ _

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 8 months ago

    Aannndddd… yeah. The "round and round" is what happens when we mistake performative rebellion for actual change. Most of us know the system’s broken, but we’d rather rage at the symptoms than admit we’re part of the pattern. You’re dead right about the "physician, heal thyself" bit, except nobody wants to do the boring work of actually examining why they crave control, whether it’s over a Lemmy community or a state. Easier to just slap a label on the ‘enemy’ and call it a day.

    True rebellion against fascism starts with the self.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    The same people who rage against authority and advocate prison abolition seem to love becoming "dungeon masters."

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    You have to lick the correct footwear.

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    You know that anarchism doesn't mean no rules right? It just means no rulers, but that's not how it works on Lemmy or any social media of this type for that matter.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    It just means no rulers, but that's not how it works

    ...anywhere in reality.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Humans spent thousands of years without rulers. Also, look at all the grassroots organizations trying to stop fascism in America right now.

    Leaders are dispensable AND disposable. We do not need them.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Humans spent thousands of years without rulers.

    orly? which thousands?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago

    The anarchist code of conduct

    fucking morons

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    I think "being able to select which community(ies) one is part of and having the ability to opt out" vs being born into it is a key differentiator.

    Fwiw, I'm not part of any moderating teams.

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  • Mommy and daddy keep going on about horizontalism but then they make me go to bed even when I don't want to >:(

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Anybody who sees Authority as a responsability is naturally averse to having it because they would feel the weight of it and would feel bad if, whilst holding Authority, they made a mistake and others got in some way hurt because of that.

    Those who see Authority as power to advance something (be it their own personal upsides or some idea they believe in) with little or no feeling of responsability towards others (be it not all directly or they've suppressed it by convincing themselves their actions are somehow "for the greater good" hence any bad they do with the authority has that grand excuse to salve their conscience), have no such aversion to holding authority.

    That posture towards authority of people of the second kind applies more broadly to all manner of things which serve to pressure, convince or manipulate others (Authority is generally power force something on others) so of course they also have no aversion to using other such tools, including using ideology to manipulate others, and sometimes that means passing themselves as somebody who holds a certain ideology, and that includes Anarchism.

    So yeah, you're going to find that certain people who parrot Anarchist talk aren't in fact people whose Principles mean they're naturally Anarchist but rather people being Performative Anarchists in order to fit-in and manipulate others driven by entirelly different Principles, and such people are absolutelly pro-Authority as long as they're in control of it.

    In summary, there are two types of people who seem Anarchist:

    • Those whose personal principles means they are averse to people controlling other people. There are naturally against any form of Authority.
    • Those who want to control other people and are in a specific situation where Theatre Of Anarchism can advance their objectives. These are against forms of Authority which hinder their objectives but are in favor of forms of Authority which advance their objectives.

    IMHO, the best way to spot the second kind from the first is to look for the often repetition of common slogans and having a superficial level of ideology with no actual tracing back to personal principles since they learned the ideology at an intellectual level rather than being drived by their Principles - i.e. what feels Right and what feels Wrong - to finding that formal ideology as something that fits them.

    By the way, this method to identify the real ones from the performers also works for all other ideologies and even things like Faith - start paying attention and you'll spot all manner of teatrics around ideologies all across the entire political spectrum as well as in people professing some faith or other.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    Just wanted to say this is a fantastic take. 100% agree.

    Too many people want to argue in the sense they are a 'greater' authority than you, to try to force you into agreement with them. And generally lack any ability to genuinely reflect on themselves, their actions, or the flaws/contradictions often inherent in their ideology. So ultimately they just fall back on slogans as self-evident truths that must be preached and obeyed.

    That's very different than actually reading the source material of an ideology. How many Anarchists have read Bakunin? Anytime someone claims to be anarchist I love asking them that and looking at the total look of confusion on their face...

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago (24 children)

    Okay, I'll bite. I need to add to my block list anyway.

    Y'all have heard of the Nazi Bar problem, right? Paradox of intolerance? Which turns out not to be a paradox after all? You should def look that one up rather than waiting for me to type it all out.

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  • [–] [S] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (19 children)

    People like to refer to the paradox of tolerance but always skip out on the inconvenient bit:

    ""Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

    — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.""

    If you are not able to rationally argue why we shouldn't be bigoted, I don't know what to tell you.

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    One problem with bigots is they dont care about truth or logic. Its a waste of time to continually argue the same points over and over again with people who refuse to learn or think.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    But remember, be sure that your point is logical and truthful, and not parroting talking points in spite of them being repeated all around you.

    Being truthful and logical is not always a popular position. Some would say it's not even often the popular position.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (7 children)

    If you are not able to rationally argue why we shouldn’t be bigoted, I don’t know what to tell you.

    it's not that people can't, but spaces which have unlimited tolerance for sealions suggesting that it's necessary to argue about that are likely to have less interesting discussions than spaces which do not 🙄

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  • [+] [S] -6 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Then be clear about the rules. I have 0 problems with people creating communities with very clear rules on what is allowed and what isn't. I wholeheartedly welcome that. What I take issue with is when people claim to have open discussion, or the space is for "rational discourse", or "anarchist" discourse etc. but then ban everything that doesn't very exactly align with the mod ideology.

    If most people waving the anarchist flag would admit they're just doing it because it's cool but actually, they just want to be the authoritarians in place of the authoritarians, that would be fine. I'd happily avoid them. Problem is that when they don't admit it, they drag down the whole anarchist ideology because they are misrepresenting it.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

    key words there are discourse and discussion.

    As is explained in a few responses to your paradox of tolerance reply (that you seem to have conveniently not replied to so far), the kind of discussion or conversation they are referencing requires both parties to be working in good faith.

    from your own reference

    as long as we can counter them by rational argument

    If one party can't or won't provide logic or reasoning to their side of an exchange, that's not a discussion because there is nothing to discuss with someone not willing to engage in good faith.

    There are absolutely places that are ideological echo chambers, despite claiming otherwise, but banning someone for the inability (or unwillingness) to engage in good faith isn't a removal based on ideology it's a removal based on not adhering to the basic tenets of how discussions are supposed to work.

    If it just so happens that most of that kind of banning happens to people with ideologies you subscribe to, perhaps it's worth considering how you can help these people understand how to have an actual conversation.

    That all being said, from what i've seen here I’d guess you're on the purposeful bad faith side of things so I’m not expecting any reasonable consideration, but feel free to surprise me (or block me, i suppose).

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    You're making quite a lot of frankly weird assumptions.

    Find a single line from me where I'm saying that people who don't engage in rational discourse shouldn't be kicked out.

    In fact, have a honest think. How much of your response is based on a knee jerk reaction instead of actually looking at what I've been saying in this thread?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You’re making quite a lot of frankly weird assumptions.

    I've clearly stated what i'm referring to and how i got there, if you think there is an unsupported statement then reference it directly and i will respond.

    That being said, fuck, i think i've seen two posts next to each other and missed where it changed from them to you.

    That's entirely my bad and i apologise, my response was supposed to be for the other person.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    No hard feelings :)

    Not sure what theme you're using but at least for me the default one makes it a bit hard to separate replies. I still like it most of all for just lurking.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    You have it backwards.

    Rational discourse, pragmatically speaking, is discourse that starts from agreed upon premises. Anarchists thing the only rational discourse there is, is one that agrees with anarchism's superiority over other political systems of thought and organization.

    And secondly, people appeal to high minded ideals like 'rational discourse' not because they practice them, but because they give them a sense of authority. Each mod of each flavor on anarchism believes theirs is the best, otherwise why would they believe in it?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    i think people not knowing how to actually win an argument against a bigot is exactly the reason there are so many these days

    shit's easy. not that they'll admit defeat but getting them babbling irrational nonsense takes very little debating skills. and when they inevitably start throwing ad hominems, then the mods have legitimate grounds to kick them out.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves in to."

    Though it is occasionally possible to point out how their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny and get them to engage on it.

    Only works with the ones not doing it on purpose, however.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago*

    We are all bigoted.

    The idea is we have institutions that minimize our bigotry by not being subject to the judgements of any one particular person and their biases.

    People who claim some absolute stance of non-bigotry... are basically the most likely to engage in bigotry because they deny it is even possible they could be.

    People who whinge on about the the paradox of intolerance are always cunts who want to have a reason to beat people up because it makes them feel big. It's a stupid argument either way, because there is no such thing as unlimited tolerance, and no society is ever 'free'.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Just to let you know before I block you, I didn't read your "reasonable disagreement" of a wall of text

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Y’all have heard of the Nazi Bar problem, right?

    Bullshit genetic or reductio ad hitlerum fallacy. Carried to its logical conclusion, anything tainted by Nazis (eg, the universe) is a Nazi bar. Have you considered finding yourself another universe to inhabit, since this one is irredeemably tainted? While we may argue the universe is far too vast to be a "Nazi bar", so is the internet or any "platform".

    Worse, censoring ideas gives them covert power. It doesn't discredit them or strip them of power like challenging them in a public forum could. It's also a disservice to better ideas

    • it withholds opportunities for people to become competent enough advocates to discredit bad ideas
    • instead of deradicalize opponents, it drives their discussion elsewhere: they continue to radicalize & grow opposition unchallenged.

    Censorship is incompetent advocacy: it mistakes suppressing the expression of bad ideas for effective advocacy that directly discredits bad ideas, develops intellectual growth, and steers toward better ideas.

    Paradox of intolerance?

    The bogus social media version subverting the original message or the real one?

    text alternative

    The True Paradox of Tolerance

    By philosopher Karl Popper[^popper-source]

    You think you know the Popper Paradox thanks to this? (👉 comic from pictoline.com)

    Karl Popper: I never said that!

    Popper argued that society via its institutions should have a right to prohibit those who are intolerant.

    Karl Popper: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.

    For Popper, on what grounds may society suppress the intolerant? When they "are not prepared to meet on the level of rational argument" "they forbid their followers to listen to rational argument … & teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols". The argument of the intolerably intolerant is force & violence.

    We misconstrue this paradox at our peril … to the extent that one group could declare another group 'intolerant' just to prohibit their ideas, speech & other freedoms.

    Grave sign: "The Intolerant" RIP
    Underneath it lies a pile of symbols for Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Black power. A leg labeled tolerance kicks the Gay Pride symbol into the pile.

    Muchas gracias a @lokijustice y asivaespana.com

    Karl Popper opposed censorship/argued for free inquiry & open discourse.

    I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

    Censorship (or willfully blinding ourselves to information) plays no part in suppressing authoritarianism.

    Only cowards fear words. Words are not the danger. It's the dangerous people whose words we fail to discredit.

    [^popper-source]: Source: The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl R. Popper

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    Are you really comparing a completely optional forum to a society where people can and will point guns at you?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    I don't love moderating my communities at all. I barely even read the reports. 🤷‍♂️

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