Everybody knows about the backstory, there was a civil war, KMT fled to Taiwan creating two Chinas sort of, maybe, neither recognises the other, whole thing. ROC (Taiwan) ended up transitioning from military rule to a multi-party democracy, while the PRC (mainland China) didn't do that (they did reform economically, "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and all that, but still a one-party state, not a multi-party democracy). The status quo right now is that Taiwan is in the grey area of statehood where they function pretty much independently but aren't properly recognised, and both sides of the strait are feeling pretty tense right now.

Taiwan's stance on the issue is that they would like to remain politically and economically independent of mainland China, retaining their multi-party democracy, political connections to its allies, economic trade connections, etc. Also, a majority of the people in Taiwan do not support reunification with China.

China's stance on the issue is that Taiwan should be reunified with the mainland at all costs, ideally peacefully, but war is not ruled out. They argue that Taiwan was unfairly separated from the mainland by imperial powers in their "century of humiliation". Strategically, taking Taiwan would be beneficial to China as they would have better control of the sea.

Is it even possible for both sides to agree to a peaceful solution? Personally, I can only see two ways this could go about that has the consent of both parties. One, a reformist leader takes power in the mainland and gives up on Taiwan, and the two exist as separate independent nations. Or two, the mainland gets a super-reformist leader that transitions the mainland to a multi-party democracy, and maybe then reunification could be on the table, with Taiwan keeping an autonomous status given the large cultural difference (similar to Hong Kong or Macau's current status). Both options are, unfortunately, very unlikely to occur in the near future.

A third option (?) would be a pseudo-unification, where Taiwan becomes a recognised country, but there can be free movement of people between the mainland and Taiwan, free trade, that sort of stuff (sort of like the EU? Maybe?). Not sure if the PRC would accept that.

What are your thoughts on a peaceful solution to the crisis that both sides could agree on?

edit: Damn there are crazies in both ends of the arguments. I really don't think giving Taiwan nukes would help solve the problem.

I think the current best solution, looking at the more reasonable and realistic comments, seems to be to maintain the status quo, at least until both sides of the strait are able to come into some sort of agreement (which seems to be worlds away right now given their current very opposing stances on the issue)

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[–] 17 points 8 months ago

While I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, the only peaceful outcome I can see is actually just a continuation of the status quo, where mainland China uses "reunification" messaging as little more than a show of strength and patriotic political rhetoric, and where the Western world continues to treat Taiwan's independence with "strategic ambiguity" while hinting to China that any attempt to take Taiwan will be met with a large scale Western response from the US and allies.

I do think that the West wants Russia's attempted invasion of Ukraine to be a sign of what China should expect if they were to attempt to annex Taiwan. It won't be easy, it'll throw trade and supply chains into absolute chaos, and it'll be met with harsh economic sanctions and large weapons deals at the very least. The West wants China to feel that there is very little upside to attacking Taiwan, and that it's much more reasonable to maintain the status quo (though arguably, tariffs and trade wars needlessly remove some of the US's economic leverage over China).

Rhetoric aside, how much chaos and bloodshed is China really willing to tolerate just for the pyrric victory of finishing what Mao started almost a century ago?

I think the main hope for peace is that Xi and the ruling members of the CCP feel that it's in their personal best interest to talk a big game while doing the bare minimum to disrupt the systems that they currently benefit from.

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  • [–] 55 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Someone who threatens war to acquire land is not the good guy. Fuck them.

    Yes I realize this also references you know who as well.

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  • [–] 112 points 8 months ago* (65 children)

    China should accept Taiwans sovereignty as a separate Chinese country, and stop being such a little bitch. The end.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    Lets be realistic. If the confederates ran away to Key West after the civil war, would the US accept a hostile state, backed by a hostile super-power, claiming to be the government of all of USA right off their coast?

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  • [–] 31 points 8 months ago

    No? But then Taiwan doesn't actually seriously maintain this anymore. It's all a front. They have to say this because repudiating the 'one China' system could be interpreted as a declaration of independence, which would be interpreted as a green light for China to invade.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (13 children)

    Not sure why you're copping some hate, but your analogy is pretty accurate.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    If the Confederates managed to hold out for 60 years, reformed, democratised and abandoned their past and wanted to renounce their claim to the USA and become their own independent state under their own identity - I would support them in that.

    Albeit even then comparison isn't quite right because Taiwan is closer to being the Union in this analogy, and the PRC the Confederates. It would be more like if the Union lost and fled to a safepost.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Taiwan is closer to being the Union in this analogy

    mmyes, the defeated right-wing nationalist warlordists are the Union in this analogy. very good.

    i would like to learn your secret: how do you become so informed on things you know nothing about?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    mmyes, the defeated right-wing nationalist warlordists are the Union in this analogy. very good.

    The comparison here is rooted who is the original compared to the two, not their ideologies. So in that sense, Taiwan would be the Union and Confederates would be the PRC.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    Libs don't actually care about the matter, they simply want to justify pre-existing positions, so anything that doesn't support this feels hostile to them. In another comment thread I have someone who's never been to Hong Kong asking me to provide citations about what HK is like.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    What 'pre-existing' positions exactly?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (7 children)

    In this case? bad. They don't feel any need to learn about Taiwan or Xinjiang or HK or Tibet beyond its utility in proving this, and certainly don't care how it might affect the actual people living there.

    You can observe the same phenomenon with Russia; no matter the data, somehow its indicative of Russia bad and justification to increase hostile action, even at the expense of Russia's victims.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (6 children)

    I don't think that HK, Xinjiang or Tibet are relevant here. My own position is that the Taiwanese don't want to be part of the PRC. And that's all that matters.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    We have polling, it says the people of Taiwan overwhelmingly want staus quo. What they want doesn't matter to you.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    And do you also accept they don't want to be part of the PRC?

    Status quo is de-facto independence. But moreover, do you think the threats from the mainland over the prospect of the Taiwanese pursuing independence officially somewhat tempers and changes how the Taiwanese react to polls on this issue? And even then, in a direct comparison - pro-independence positions appear to be nearly 4 times as popular than unification positions within the pollling. Why is this?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    do you also accept they don’t want to be part of the PRC?

    This being an option is contingent on the US not using them as a sacrificial pawn against China, which is what the "independence" option represents. The choice isn't China vs status quo vs "freedom and democracy", its China vs status quo vs war, then China, and every warmongering lib here wants to fight China to the last drop of Taiwanese blood.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    This being an option is contingent on the US not using them as a sacrificial pawn against China

    How? Is maintaining the status quo being a "sacrificial pawn" against China?

    which is what the “independence” option represents.

    1. Why would the independence option inherently represent that?

    2. I didn't even refer to independence. You just said that: "We have polling, it says the people of Taiwan overwhelmingly want staus quo." If that's true, then do you also accept that by the same polling, the people of Taiwan do not want to be part of the PRC? Not a hard question to answer.

    The choice isn’t Chiba cs status quo vs “freedom and democracy”, its China vs status quo vs war

    Okay? Seems to me that China would be the party blamable in that scenario, and no-one else.

    and every warmongering lib here wants to fight China to the last drop of Taiwanese blood.

    I don't want to fight China. Most people here seem to support continuation of the status quo.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Is maintaining the status quo being a “sacrificial pawn” against China?

    No, anything that would require China invade is being a sacrificial pawn, such as declaring independence, hosting a military base, anything that pulls Taiwan outside of China's sphere essentially.

    Why would the independence option inherently represent that?

    Because China isn't going to tolerate it's own territory, right off its coast, being used as a forward operating base by a hostile country.

    I don’t want to fight China. Most people here seem to support continuation of the status quo.

    The people who are calling for Taiwan to do things that would result in immediate war, such as acquiring nukes or declaring independence are not supporting the continuation of the status quo.

    China seems happy with status quo followed by reunification "eventually", Taiwan is happy with status quo, it's literally only bloodthirsty western libs and 4% of Taiwan who want Taiwan to leave China entirely.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    No, anything that would require China invade is being a sacrificial pawn, such as declaring independence, hosting a military base, anything that pulls Taiwan outside of China’s sphere essentially.

    Why would that require China being a sacrificial pawn? What US military base in Taiwan are you currently referring to?

    Why is Taiwan inherently owed to China's "sphere"?

    Because China isn’t going to tolerate it’s own territory, right off its coast, being used as a forward operating base by a hostile country.

    I imagine in the event of hypothetical official Taiwanese independence that they would agree to not load up the island with US military bases. That would be a pretty reasonable red line for China.

    The people who are calling for Taiwan to do things that would result in immediate war, such as acquiring nukes or declaring independence are not supporting the continuation of the status quo.

    Yes. Random people in a thread. They aren't most people.

    Many are also being hyperbolic.

    China seems happy with status quo followed by reunification “eventually”, Taiwan is happy with status quo, it’s literally only bloodthirsty western libs and 4% of Taiwan who want Taiwan to leave China entirely.

    Overall it's about 25% of Taiwanese people who aspire towards independence, and about 7-8% who want to "unify". Do you accept that people in Taiwan do not want to join the PRC?

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    Well Taiwan sees itself as part of mainland China, just not a part of the communist regime

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (14 children)

    Not really. Not many people in Taiwan really think that anymore. They've moved on.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (13 children)
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (12 children)

    Most people in Taiwan identify as Taiwanese over Chinese. Most people in Taiwan push for status-quo in polling, and of those that don't, the second-most popular opinion is independence.

    What, you truly think an island with the population of 23 million think its logistically possible for them to overcome an over a billion population difference and somehow take the mainland back under the banner of the ROC? The mainland also has nukes.

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    Going by some other users claims in this thread, you replying to me here in another chain constitutes harassment.

    40 comments denying this fact only to casually admit it to somebody else, what an absolute fucking troll.

    No. It's both reasonable to accept that most of the opinion poll responses say status-quo but also that it's likely that this is heavily buffered by the geopolitical situation and that many of the 'status quo' respondents would like to seek independence, and this can be supported based on a number of other metrics that I have already mentioned to you.

    Moreover, my point there was questioning the user above's claim that the Taiwanese as a majority now seriously believe and want to somehow take the mainland back for the ROC.

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  • [+] -1 points 8 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    So we're at that level now, are we?

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  • [+] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    So if you're going to just hurl insults, why bother replying at all?

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    You keep replying to me and then complain when I do. Quote me where I called for Taiwan to immediately pursue official independence.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    This is not what I meant. The taiwanese sees themselves as part of China, not an independent country. Just not a region that's compatible with the communist party which is the issue here. Maintaining the status quo doesn't contradict that.

    If the CCP goes away the issue is gone.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (5 children)

    This is not what I meant. The taiwanese sees themselves as part of China, not an independent country.

    Officially, but most Taiwanese people now identify as Taiwanese. But all the same, you think they think its realistic they can somehow "take back" the mainland?

    Just not a region that’s compatible with the communist party which is the issue here. Maintaining the status quo doesn’t contradict that.

    I guess, but they're also not deluded enough to think they can ever take it back.

    If the CCP goes away the issue is gone.

    Which they have no power to cause.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (4 children)

    but most Taiwanese people now identify as Taiwanese

    Again, how do you know? And why would that imply that they don't believe that Taiwan and China are one entity?
    I don't understand why you bring up the possibility of Taiwan to remove the CCP or retake mainland China. My comment had nothing to do with that but with the opinion of the Taiwanese

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Click here.

    I think identity in this sense says something, right?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    It doesn't. You can identify as Taiwanese and still think that Taiwan and China are one.

    I identify as firstly from my region but that doesn't mean I believe I'm apart from the rest of the country.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    It doesn’t. You can identify as Taiwanese and still think that Taiwan and China are one.

    Sure, but it is indicative - that's the point. And in actual polling specifically, when you omit status quo - 25% of people in Taiwan want to "move towards independence" as opposed to 8% who want to "unify".

    I think it's pretty apparent that most Taiwanese people, whether or not they believe in a 'one China' or not don't want to live under the PRC, and additionally don't believe it's really plausible to retake the mainland under ROC control.

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  • [+] -18 points 8 months ago (28 children)

    Let me guess, you don't think they have a legal claim to the island under UN law?

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    Are you implying UN law is even remotely relevant here? Or anywhere?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (22 children)

    International law is what the CCP claims gives them the right. So no, I am not implying, I am stating it is relevant. Even if you disagree with the law, how do you expect this to be resolved peacefully without international law?

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  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (21 children)

    I don't expect it to be resolved peacefully. Imperialism rarely is.

    Edit: also, the UN is a joke. It's just a tool the security council uses to bully other nations. It exists entirely for their benefit. This is like pointing to law under monarchy to support the king's position. It's totally circular.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (20 children)

    Imperialism? How is this imperialism?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (19 children)

    World power attempting to subordinate and subsume its neighbor by threats of invasion? How is it not imperialism?

    Arguably the US's defense of Taiwan is also imperialist but a more benign form than the CPC's actions here. The Taiwanese people are just pawns in the struggle for global domination.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Because imperialism isn't when invasion. You really should learn what words mean before you use them. Imperialism is a capitalist phenomena where high stage capitalist powers enforce(through force or other means) unequal exchange and super exploitation upon subordinate nations to extract super profits. The PRC has never done that.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago* (10 children)

    That's just a nonsense definition invented by Stalin to apologize for his own imperialism. No one else uses that definition. I'll agree that this is a form of imperialism but it is far from the only form. The absurdity here is that by this definition classical empires like Rome didn't even engage in imperialism. When your definition excludes the textbook empire, maybe that's a sign that something has gone wrong here...

    Although arguably the PRC has done that even by this muddled definition.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    You’re just factually wrong.

    That definition wasn’t “invented by Stalin.” It comes from Lenin in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, written in 1916, before the USSR even existed. Stalin didn’t “make it up.” Lenin analyzed imperialism as a specific stage of capitalism: monopoly capital, finance capital, export of capital, division of the world, and super-profits extracted from subordinate nations. That’s standard Marxist political economy, not a post-hoc excuse. The fact you're this wrong about it is genuinely incredibly impressive.

    You’re also mixing up empires with modern imperialism. They are not the same thing.

    Rome conquered territory through pre-capitalist slavery and tribute. Modern imperialism works through banks, corporations, debt, unequal exchange, and enforced dependency. Capitalist imperialism is what matters on the modern age, not every conquest in human history. Saying “Rome doesn’t fit Lenin’s definition” isn’t a gotcha, it just shows you don’t understand what you're talking about.

    Now on your snide comment about China.

    Imperialism today looks like this: exporting finance capital, imposing structural adjustment, extracting monopoly rents, enforcing dollar hegemony, surrounding the globe with military bases, and keeping whole regions permanently underdeveloped.

    China does none of that.

    The PRC doesn’t run IMF shock therapy. It doesn’t control global reserve currency. It doesn’t force privatization. It doesn’t maintain hundreds of overseas bases. It doesn’t drain super-profits from the Global South. Chinese investment is infrastructure-heavy, bilateral, and negotiated, which is exactly why so many formerly colonized countries prefer dealing with China over the West.

    Calling that “imperialism” is just liberal brainrot: “big country doing geopolitics = imperialism.”

    I hope you can grow up and learn and stop preaching arrogantly on things you clearly know less than 0 about I understand it's the American way but it is incredibly frustrating to be constantly lectured by uneducated labour aristocrats.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Ok I'll accept the correction, it was Lenin, not Stalin. Whatever. Two peas from the same pod whose ideological differences are frankly scarcely noticeable to most people.

    The word imperialism relates to empires. It predates Lenin's work and its definition continues to be used in that way by most people outside of your tiny political faction. If you want to refer to it as capitalist imperialism or something that's fine but it's absurd to claim that Lenin's work invalidates the long-standing use of the term to describe the behavior of empires before capitalism before and through to the modern time. Especially when your new definition invalidates virtually all of its historical uses.

    I am using the word imperialism as the dictionary defines it, not your weird made up version which you unilaterally declare correct in contradiction to the vast majority of English speakers.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Calling Lenin and Stalin “two peas in a pod” is pure ignorance. Lenin was a theorist of imperialism and revolutionary strategy in a semi-feudal Russia. Stalin governed an already-existing socialist state under siege and focused on industrialization and survival. Their political contexts, priorities, and theoretical contributions were radically different. Collapsing them together just tells everyone you’ve never seriously engaged with either.

    Now about “dictionary imperialism.”

    Western dictionaries define imperialism as broadly as possible on purpose: “extending power,” “influence,” “big country doing stuff.” Why? Because that conveniently erases the material reality that Europe and the US built their wealth through capitalist imperialism, finance capital, colonial extraction, unequal exchange, and permanent underdevelopment of the Global South. If imperialism just means “strong states exert power,” then suddenly everyone is equally guilty and nobody has to confront who actually runs the system.

    Imperialism only has value as an analytical concept when it means something specific.

    Lenin’s definition does exactly that: monopoly capital + finance capital + export of capital + division of the world + super-profits from subordinate nations. That explains the modern world. Your dictionary definition doesn’t explain anything.

    We already have words for generic force: war, conquest, invasion.

    “Imperialism” exists to describe a capitalist global structure, not your vibes-based “power is bad” framework.

    You’re hiding behind dictionary entries because you don’t want to deal with political economy.

    This isn’t a semantic debate. You’re choosing a deliberately vague definition because it lets Western countries off the hook and lets you posture without understanding systems.

    Honestly, grow up. Stop lecturing people while proudly demonstrating you haven’t studied the topic. Being arrogant doesn’t make you informed, it just makes you loud.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    Answering primarily because I don't want people to see your comment and fall for misinformation, I'm largely repeating what I've said to you elsewhere.

    The word imperialism relates to empires. It predates Lenin’s work and its definition continues to be used in that way by most people outside of your tiny political faction.

    This is just Eurocentrism. The majority of the world understands imperialism more in line with Lenin's analysis, and describing Marxism-Leninism as "tiny" when it is the ideology governing the largest economy in the world by purchasing power parity is absurd. Imperialism does predate Lenin, Lenin built his work off of others that had begun to analyze the formation of the imperialist stage of capitalism.

    If you want to refer to it as capitalist imperialism or something that’s fine but it’s absurd to claim that Lenin’s work invalidates the long-standing use of the term to describe the behavior of empires before capitalism before and through to the modern time. Especially when your new definition invalidates virtually all of its historical uses.

    This is wrong. Lenin analyzed the imperialist stage of capitalism, he did not invalidate prior forms of imperialism. Lenin scientifically analyzed imperialism as it relates to late-stage capitalism using Marxist methodology. He did not claim Rome wasn't imperialist, just that it was a different mode of production with a different set of processes in place that makes it qualitatively distinct from the imperialist phase of capitalism.

    I am using the word imperialism as the dictionary defines it, not your weird made up version which you unilaterally declare correct in contradiction to the vast majority of English speakers.

    In other words, you're accepting purely what is seen as valid by the western bourgeoisie with respect to how they get their vast riches. This is a semantic game, when Marxists are arguing against real, observed phenomena that behave in specific, observable ways, not the mere word itself. If we only accepted bourgeois framing of everything, then we could make the same reductive statements about anarchism, critique of capitalism, etc that you're making of the imperialist stage of capitalism.

    As I said elsewhere, I think it would be a good idea for you to read Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism for yourself. This isn't a "read theory" argument, I know you can't force people to read if they don't want to, but instead a suggestion for you to understand why Marxists analyze the behavior of late-stage capitalism this way. Even watching this summary video by Red Pen would do wonders, and it's only ~55 minutes long (as compared to the 3-5 hours of reading the original text itself).

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

    That’s just a nonsense definition invented by Stalin to apologize for his own imperialism.

    Not only was the USSR not imperialist, but it was Lenin that formulated the Marxist analysis of imperialism, not Stalin, and Lenin further relied heavily on John A. Hobson's formulation of imperislism. Lenin took Hobson's base observations and re-analyzed using a Marxist frame. Stalin had no part in that, and it seems like you're trying to invent a reason to not take Marxist analysis of imperialism seriously. Lenin's work on imperialism predated the USSR, and actively informed how the bolsheviks struggled for socialism in tsarist Russia.

    This is extremely easy to verify, so I'm not sure where you got this idea from. Either you genuinely didn't know, and thus didn't care enough to learn or verify, or you made it up knowing how easy it is to debunk. Neither points to reasonable argument.

    The absurdity here is that by this definition classical empires like Rome didn’t even engage in imperialism.

    The Roman Empire was pre-capitalist, and thus its mechanisms for extraction were entirely different from what Marxists analyze as modern-day imperialism. Call it whatever you wish, Marxists do not critique what we call imperialism because of its name, but because of its function as the primary contradiction driving global struggle and development today.

    Although arguably the PRC has done that even by this muddled definition.

    What you call "muddled" is in fact a far more scientific analysis than "big country bully small." Further, no, the PRC does not fall into the Marxist analysis of imperialism.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    You're right, Lenin, not Stalin. The two are very ideologically similar so I hope you'll forgive my misremembering. It doesn't change the validity of my argument however. You can change Stalin for Lenin in my original comment and it remains true.

    Any analysis that automatically rejects 90% of historical imperialism as suddenly not imperialism is unserious. If you wish to call it capitalist imperialism that would be one thing but one obscure and frankly not all that serious theorist doesn't just get to tell everyone else in the world they're suddenly using a word wrong just because they decided to and because it's convenient for their, yes, imperialist politics.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You’re right, Lenin, not Stalin. The two are very ideologically similar so I hope you’ll forgive my misremembering. It doesn’t change the validity of my argument however. You can change Stalin for Lenin in my original comment and it remains true.

    It changes your argument entirely. You claimed Stalin made it up to justify "soviet imperialism," ie that it was an unscientific definition created for the purpose of justifying actions after the fact. The truth, on the other hand, is that analysis of imperialism predated the USSR, and was used to help analyze tsarist Russia's place in the world and wage a successful revolution, because it was a scientific analysis of imperialism.

    Any analysis that automatically rejects 90% of historical imperialism as suddenly not imperialism is unserious.

    That's not what Lenin's analysis of imperialism does, though. You're doing the thing where you confidently make a statement easily debunked, which leads me to believe that you either have no concern for accuracy, or instead are deliberately making things up. Roman imperialism was different in form and function to what Marxists recognize as the imperialist stage of capitalism.

    If you wish to call it capitalist imperialism that would be one thing but one obscure and frankly not all that serious theorist doesn’t just get to tell everyone else in the world they’re suddenly using a word wrong just because they decided to and because it’s convenient for their, yes, imperialist politics.

    Again, no, Lenin developed the Marxist analysis of imperialism in the context of the coming inter-imperialist war (World War I), and the successful analysis of imperialism helped establish socialism. There was no USSR, so you couldn't even accuse Lenin of trying to justify "soviet imperialism," which doesn't exist anyways.

    Are you being genuine, or have you made up your mind already and are making things up as you go to justify that? Honest question, because you're doubling and tripling down on this.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I got a lot of people attacking me right now so I didn't read as carefully as I should have, so I didn't know it was a concept created before Lenin came into power. That changes my understanding of the context in which he created it, specifically.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that auth-left people use this confusing language that is in total contradiction to how the rest of the anglosphere uses the word exactly as it's being used here--to deflect from actions that are very obviously of the same nature as historical imperialism. Yet because the PRC claims to be socialist, suddenly we ignore all of the power dynamics and all of the coercion and decide this is benign simply because it supposedly doesn't match Lenin's definition.

    Such that even when it does match the common definition, I get tons of people attacking me and saying I don't know what imperialism is when I'm not even using the word in the Marxist sense. Marxism isn't of much interest to me, so yeah, I'm not an expert on it. That is not relevant to the fact that China's attempts to crush Taiwanese autonomy and seize control of the island are textbook imperialism.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    I got a lot of people attacking me right now so I didn’t read as carefully as I should have, so I didn’t know it was a concept created before Lenin came into power. That changes my understanding of the context in which he created it, specifically.

    I understand that you're flustered, and you feel attacked. It's good that you're changing your understanding to reflect new information, rather than reflexively dismissing it. My advice, if you'll hear it, is to try to research things more before saying potentially inflammatory things about them, and this type of situation happens much less frequently.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that auth-left people use this confusing language that is in total contradiction to how the rest of the anglosphere uses the word exactly as it’s being used here–to deflect from actions that are very obviously of the same nature as historical imperialism.

    There's 2 major factors here:

    1. Lenin's analysis of imperialism isn't at all in total contradiction. It's a more developed, scientific analysis of late-stage capitalism. Marxist analysis of capitalism isn't mainstream in the English-speaking world either, yet it's important because it accurately explains the processes of capitalism. I presume that you're more anarchist inclined, the anarchist analysis of society isn't mainstream either. If we hold your idea that being mainstream in English is synonymous with validity, then we'd be trapped into capitalist analysis of everything.

    2. Marxists analyze imperialism scientifically not so as to deflect, but instead to understand how it develops, where it's heading to, and what contradictions are at play. Dialectically, imperialism is dying while the global south is rising.

    Yet because the PRC claims to be socialist, suddenly we ignore all of the power dynamics and all of the coercion and decide this is benign simply because it supposedly doesn’t match Lenin’s definition.

    This isn't true, either. The PRC is socialist, not because it claims to be, but because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. The PRC isn't imperialist, not simply because it doesn't match what one guy said, but because said guy accurately analyzed an existing phenomenon and that phenomenon is not present in the PRC.

    Why is it that countries participating in BRI rapidly develop and escape underdevelopment, while western IMF loans perpetuate underdevelopment? Why are the results so different? Marxism is not a dogma, we don't twist reality to meet theory. Dialectical materialism does not tell us the answers, but tells us where to look, and that reality must be testef.

    I think it would be a good idea for you to read Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism for yourself. This isn't a "read theory" argument, I know you can't force people to read if they don't want to, but instead a suggestion for you to understand why Marxists analyze the behavior of late-stage capitalism this way. Even watching this summary video by Red Pen would do wonders, and it's only ~55 minutes long (as compared to the 3-5 hours of reading the original text itself).

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Are you unaware of the history of Taiwan? How it became "independent"?

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I am familiar. How is that relevant here?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    How is it relevant? Are you serious? How are you claiming this is imperialism? It's an island that a murderous dictator fled to after losing a bloody civil war. It was then recognized as "China" at the UN for years. Like how is reunification==imperialism in your mind?

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Forceful conquering by military might or other coersion means makes it imperialism. There is no history that could make it otherwise.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Let me guess, you think the UN matters more than the people living there?

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago

    Realistic? The current status quo of everyone pretending Taiwan isn't a country and China not invading.

    China isn't going to accept an independent Taiwan for a variety of reasons. That likely won't change unless there is a war.

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  • [–] 30 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Taiwan need to stop claiming they are the legitimate government of China.

    China need to recognise that Taiwan isn't part of China anymore.

    Neither will happen.

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  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    its kinda wierd how they claim it, when initially they were just as brutal as the ccp early days.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago*

    just as brutal

    Theres a difference between brutality in response to millenia of oppression and brutality against anyone who might not want to continue that oppression.

    Thats not to say the CPC was some perfectly just machine, but the two are qualitatively different. Would you say the French og revolutionaries were just as brutal as the bourbons?

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  • [+] 22 points 8 months ago (11 children)
  • [–] 26 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    All polling indicates that pro-unification sentiment isn't growing though. If China is waiting until they have consent of the Taiwanese, then why would security guarantees from the USA be relevant in the first place?

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    After what China did to Hong Kong that’s never happening.

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  • [+] -14 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    What China did to Hong Kong?

    You mean freed them from a council imposed by the British, elected by the crown and large businesses?

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Stole their autonomy, reduced social freedoms, and imprisoned activists creating an environment of fear and oppression.

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  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    What autonomy, they lived in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie imposed by Britain.

    What Social freedoms? The freedom to die under bridges or in coffin apartments or to live in literal tinder boxes?

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    What Social freedoms? The freedom to die under bridges or in coffin apartments or to live in literal tinder boxes?

    Sorry, what, you depict pre-CCP controlled Hong Kong as if it was Somalia, or something.

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  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    I depict it as living in a colony of Britain, which it literally was.

    And the coffin apartments, homelessness, and lack of fire safety are pretty well known. Have you been to Hong Kong? There's massive inequality and some of the highest rent in the world because the government blocked the expansion of housing for decades.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    I depict it as living in a colony of Britain, which it literally was.

    And what did the people of Hong Kong want exactly?

    And the coffin apartments, homelessness, and lack of fire safety are pretty well known.

    These are things all "well known" in lots of highly populated urban cities. Is Hong Kong supposed to be unique here? Are you referring to any data that specifically identifies Hong Kong being uniquely ailed by the worst excesses of urban blight in comparison to other similar cities? What does this have to do with cracking down on pro-independence movements and activism in the city?

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    You mean freed them from a council imposed by the British, elected by the crown and large businesses?

    And so what new representation rights did they provide them after they annexed them, exactly? Or did they round up and purge the pro-autonomy and independence activists?

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    Sadly the current status quo is the best solution.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    I'm garbage in history.

    Can't we just treat it as relationships. I mean the reunification should only be done if both sides mutually agree. Forcing by any means is not good

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago*

    I mean wasn't it largely peaceful in the past? From China's perspective they only need to act if Taiwan or other countries make public statements challenging their legal claim to the island, it is better for China to wait as the power dynamics are shifting in their favor. It is only the west that wants to force this issue to come to head now, while they still have a comparative advantage - but even now if China wants Taiwan there is little we can do keep that from happening (though the humanitarian cost would be staggering and likely hurt their standing internationally).

    Edit: I also don't see why mainland would suddenly pivot on the issue, there's seems very little reason to expect them to change course.

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    反攻大陆 (Counterattack the mainland) 😏

    /just kidding


    I think the only peaceful unification would be if CCP falls and mainland China becomes an actual democracy with free and fair elections, then mainland, HK, Taiwan can form a union, where Taiwan and HK remains autonomous regions for domestic politics (and this automony would be backed by a constitution) and have a common front for defence.

    I mean another option would be complete sovereignty but a European Union type of thing where they do cooperate and sort of is like a country, but maintain the option to leave.

    But regardless, I think it all comes down to what HKers and Taiwanese want, you need a referrendum for these types of things. I'd say to have legitimacy: Two consecutive referrendums in two separate regularly scheduled election with majority approval before any plan is enacted, to attempt to prevent a Brexit shenanigan.

    I'm Chinese American so while I do support democracy, I am kinda leaning towards reunification assuming that there is actually democracy, but again it all comes down to what the people think, the will of the people is more important than my opinions.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Since you're Chinese American, I have a question that's doubly offensive but I'm actually interested in hearing your opinion. Should borders the size of China and the U.S. continue to exist at all? IMO one president or central government can't legitimately represent hundreds of millions of people.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    So your quesrion is: "Should large countries exist?"

    I mean honestly idk...

    I hope humanity one day grows past tribalism and we just have one big "European Union" type of thing and worldwide Schengen area and there be no wars.

    But unfortunately humans are tribalistic and eventually people are gonna wanna form a bloc, whether it be military alliances like NATO, or confederations like European Union (btw I'm curious what happens if an EU country that isn't in NATO gets invaded... EU is not a millitary alliance so it'd be very weird...) or more commonly, people form countries.

    That's just human tribalism.

    If mainland China democratizes, then I could see somewhat of a "bloc" being formed between mainland China, HK, Taiwan... as for Tibet and Xinjiang... I have no idea, their culture seems very distinct, I mean they have a whole separate writing system whereas mainland, HK, Taiwan all use the same writing system and have some of the sameholidays (Lunar New Year for example).

    Eventually there could be an entire "bloc" in Asia.

    Like I really don't like the idea of China being divided into separate provinces without a common military front... and that's not because of ancestry reasons, like for example I do not have any European Ancestry and never been to Europe, but also don't like European Union and NATO getting broken up for the same reasons... it feels weak to get separated... too much chaos, Russia could invade any time. I mean even China literally got threatened by Russia's predecessor, the USSR. (see: "Sino-Soviet Split")

    I think forming a "bloc" isn't an inherent issue, I think the key point is avoid centralization of powers... federalism or confederalism would try to slow down ant autocratization attempts, but ultimately, people are people and there's no democracy that will last forever if the people insists on electing wannabe dictators.

    one president

    Directorial System like in Switzerland, maybe?

    Or like EU where there is no one "President of EU"

    central government can’t legitimately represent hundreds of millions of people.

    Federalism or Confederalism (European Union)

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Many thanks for such a detailed answer. I agree that blocs and federations are a good thing, and hope to see Asian, South-Eastern Asian, African, and South-American alliances similar to EU form around democratic values. I also hope that they don't turn into rival fortresses with armed borders and migration restrictions between them. As someone from former USSR (Ukraine), I'm quite sure that Russia on its own, without Chinese government assistance, especially technologic, wouldn't at their current economic state be able to wage war and suppress internal movements to democratize and/or truly federalize (in the North, particularly); but I read, admittedly not extensively, about Chinese history and recognize how dangerous it is not to have strong allies when empires are nearby - without strong allies, it's a must to have mostly autarkic production and strength in numbers.

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