Europe

[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 29 points 9 months ago

"Fucking dumb" and "fascists" seem redundant.

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[–] toffi@piefed.social 8 points 9 months ago

Ah yes the party of nationalism wants to keep us bound to foreign payment providers. I wonder why.

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[–] ReluctantlyZen@ani.social 33 points 9 months ago (5 children)

From what I know, Wero is based on the standard Dutch payment service iDeal. iDeal becoming more international is something I'm very happy with as it works great.

[–] rollin@piefed.social 10 points 9 months ago (3 children)

is it pretty much a way to do bank transfers without having to give away your IBAN? I don't think IBANs need to be kept secret but they're a bit unwieldy to say the least - and transfers are not always instant.

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[–] ReluctantlyZen@ani.social 3 points 9 months ago

More or less, yeah.

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[–] JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

And with IBAN there are sometimes unknown fees so the amount that your (especially from a different country) transferee receives is less than what you pay, and you only know after 1-3 business days.

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[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 9 months ago

That's not a thing anymore for amounts under 10k or something. Unless your bank is shit and doesn't automatically use sepa instant, which is free and instant.

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[–] python@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago

If anyone could come up with a good money transfer service, it's definitely the Dutch. Love their whole Tikkie thing tbh

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[–] quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 9 months ago (5 children)

My question would be, can it be used without a smart phone? If not, is having a google account or iphone an indirect requirement?

[–] Alchalide@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

It's being presented as being the same as ideal. We've been using this for many years. You can pay using your banking app but you can also use your bankcard and an "identifier". If you want to pay something online you get a code or qr code presented on the website you buy the product. You put your bankcard into the identifier, enter your pin, enter the code or scan the qr and the identifier pops out a code that you enter on the website and the payment is instantly done. If you just use your baking app without the identifier, you are limited in the amount you can pay and the app will sometimes ask to use your identifier and card. It's really easy and convenient in my opinion.

Edit: we only use our banking app and card. No other accounts needed.

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[–] Vinylraupe@lemmy.zip 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

I used my baking app and a gâteau aux apricots appeared, what should i do next?

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[–] pirat@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago

Wake & bake

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[–] pineapple_captain@lemmy.zip 2 points 9 months ago

For me it's working on revolut. It's a bit hidden, but I'm trying to switch there instead of PayPal.

But I don't know a lot of online stores that accept it. Did anyone use it to buy online?

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[–] baguettefish@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 9 months ago

right now afaik wero is part of your regular banking app, so it may be usable just online on your banking website or with custom roms like grapheneos, which a decent amount of banking apps support. there's definitely a lot of reliance on google and apple though.

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[–] Mihies@programming.dev 9 points 9 months ago (13 children)

But how many online and offline shops accept it? If it wants to succeed, it has to be at least EU driven.

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[–] whaleross@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago (8 children)

From what I've gathered, there is a rushed effort to make this the EU standard payment system as soon as possible. When it is in place it will most likely be integrated by any online vendor that wants to do pan European business.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 2 points 9 months ago (6 children)

This is not nor will be EU standard. There are many existing solutions cooperating under the umbrella of European Payment Alliance (EuroPA). This includes Nordic countries, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland and couple more (Austria? Romania?). Wero was pushed by Germany that was late to the game and tried to impose their solution on everyone but looks like they gave up now and last year Wero and EuroPA signed a deal to cooperate. They will work on integrating existing solutions and Wero will be only used in France and Germany (unless something very strange happens and some country abandons their system).

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[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

I already used it in Belgium though...? "Pushed by Germany" is a bold statement when the technology comes from iDeal/Bancontact which are Dutch and Belgian respectively and France is also a very large economy in the mix. Don't forget about Luxembourg as well. Benelux+FR+DE is hardly an ignorable market. France is already abandoning its existing solution for Wero. That's always been the plan.

Do you care to source your claims? My understanding both the EuroPA and EPI are a private agreement between banks, but only the latter has received explicit backing from the European Commission. The EuroPA does not seem nearly as ambitious and only seeks to streamline existing national SEPA-based online payments (unclear to me what that means exactly in practice), which is a nice short-term vision for sovereignty but probably not where the EU will want to be 5 or 10 years from now. The big selling point of Wero is that you can be shown a QR code and use it to pay easily and instantly with extremely low fees, regardless of your bank.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

You're right, it's also France and Benelux. It's just my gut feeling that Germany is behind the PR push. Other countries had similar solutions for years, many of them allowing you to pay online and in physical stores but I never saw anyone mention them as independent EU solutions. Now Wero comes which is basically the same, just a solution created by banks, and I see everywhere how European it is and how everyone should use it. It looked strange to me from the very beginning. How were they expecting all the banks in Spain for example to ditch Bizum they work on for years and move to something they don't control?

From what I see the entire history is very complicated with multiple splits and mergers but basically it's just private banks competing between themselves. Why did European Commission back EPI and not EuroPA? Again, it just my gut feeling but I'm guessing it's because Germany and France pushed for it, not because Wero is better or covers more people.

Anyway, my main point was that they signed a deal last year so it's pretty much clear now they will work together to cover all of EU instead of competing. So current solutions under EuroPA will stay where they are, the banks will not switch to Wero. We can stop pushing Wero as the pan-European solution and focus on integrations. Personally, the ability to send money to a bank in another country is not that important to me. It's the ability to pay locally, online and in stores that's matters.

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[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

Wero is not "something the banks don't control". It's a SEPA-based standard, implemented by the participating banks. It originated with Dutch/Belgian technology and banking markets and Germany and France joined because their sorry asses didn't have anything better so it's a pure upgrade for them.

EuroPA is trying to work with fragmented markets, Wero is trying to establish a new standard. I fail to see EuroPA as anything other than a stepping stone to an eventually unified standard. Having a single currency but noeasy and practical way of spending it in a Austrian or Spanish online shop without going through American banks is an absolutely bonkers situation.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

I mean that Spanish bank don't control it. With Bizum they can decide what to do. By switching to Wero they would basically have to implement whatever German and French banks tell them to. Imagine Wero decides to deprecate something or update the protocol by the end of the year. Suddenly you have bunch of work to do because EPI said so.

And I agree, they have to develop a common solution and having a single European standard would be great but the fact is that Bizum, Blik, Bancoman and many more were here before Wero they are not going to switch now just because France and Germany say so. We have to push for integration and for Wero to be one part of the system.

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[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

The EPI is not a German governing body. It is a partnership of banks who decided to implement Wero. All of them had to work to support it in addition to their existing systems, though it is not exceptionally hard because it's just a frontend for SEPA. If Spanish banks want to provide Wero to their customers then they'll join the EPI and have the same say as everyone else. But again, it's just fucking QR codes that translate to "make an instant SEPA mandate to send X € to Y IBAN" so I don't understand what there is to be scared of on a technical level.

I don't understand the point of fragmenting the Eurozone for the sake of fragmenting the Eurozone. Integration is in the long run more complex, expensive, and less user-friendly than standardization. What is so good about competing solutions that they should not eventually be replaced by a common digital payment system?

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 point 9 months ago

It's like with Euro, a lot of countries adopted it and have a say but Germany is the biggest fish so has most to say. This was seen during the crisis when Germany was the one deciding who gets rescue money and on what conditions. I doubt Spanish banks would be an equal partner in EPI, Germany and France will lead it.

On a technical level I don't know what the long term plans are. It's actually interesting topic. I will do some digging. If it were as simple as a QR code then I don't think anyone would be opposing it.

And the point is that Eurozone was already fragmented before Wero arrived. No one is halting Wero to introduce alternative, incompatible solutions. Some countries tried to agree on common standard, this failed, they implemented bunch of different solutions, and then Wero arrived and is trying to make everyone adopt it. It's too late, other solutions exist and are integrated on national level. The path is integration between those services now, not switching to Wero.

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[–] joyful_chasm@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

Most sites use a payment provider that links into services local to the userbase and spits back a standardised output. iDeal is already connected to a lot of those. Likely no extra work for individual sites: just some onboarding at the provider.

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[–] Mihies@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago

And that is exactly what we need in first place - a payment mechanism where both clients and servers can provide or use services. Then Wero, GNU Teller and others could just work without much fuss.

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[–] JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl 1 point 9 months ago*

Bancontact/payconiq uses it is the background now, apparently

So all of Benelux and a lot of France and Germany use it for webshops as bancontact/payconiq is integrated into webshop payment platforms using shopify🤢 and others.

Mollie directly can use and accept Wero and is also an option that many webshops use as a middleman and is fairly web builder-agnostic

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[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Zero offline shops, there's no implementation yet. And it will be smartphone based (qr code), no cards. Battery empty? No pay.

It's just bank payments without having to write the IBAN, and a standardized interface for online store payments when ready.

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 8 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

Why can't we just decouple payment processor and payment system? So that you can have your card from ...your bank or whoever, pay via Wero on a terminal the supermarket has from ...Logitec. Same for the phone, let me use whatever payment app. Sure, would require a standard. But EU has a interest now.

[–] bluesheep@sh.itjust.works 4 points 9 months ago

I think they're doing what you want? Where I live we basically have had this system since 2006. I can use my debit card for online banking, online purchases, in store purchases, personal transactions (for example sending money to friends, instant and free), and for public transport. No need for a credit card or something like venmo.

There's a case to be made about privacy and such, especially the public transport part, but it is really convenient.

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[–] Luisp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago

Güero is a mexican slang for blonde or north American

[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

Honestly, never used it, but my understanding is that it's become pushed for more heavily in recent years in response to Visa/MasterCard doing shit like refusing payments for LGBTQ things and for NSFW things, under dubious reasons

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 3 points 9 months ago

As an American, I would like to purchase my hentai above-board, not having to do weird maneuvers or piracy to get my perversion fix. MasterVisa makes it difficult for me to uphold the social contract. Hopefully, an alternative like Wero can overcome MasterVisa and allow me to do my part.

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[–] RedGreenBlue@lemmy.zip 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

Relying on Android and IOS. Smert! This can be shut down by American interest at a whim. There is no chip and terminal option, right?

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[–] madjo@piefed.social 6 points 9 months ago (3 children)

It’s for online payments with your bank app.

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[–] quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Is there any bank app that doesn't rely on google play or iphone?

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[–] punkibas@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago

Yes, you can just use it through the bank's webpage on a phone.

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[–] Renohren@lemmy.today 3 points 9 months ago

My two bank apps (société générale and N26 ) don't. They only needs a locked bootloader, I run them fine within iodé OS.

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[–] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 9 months ago

It's a phone number. It can be released as an app on any platform. It doesn't rely on android and ios

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It's not relying on either? It's a website that also happens to have app versions

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[–] Squizzy@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago

I domt know what all the different cunts do, visa, stripe etc. But I want to tpa.my phone without google amd visa being involved.

[–] Darkness343@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago

Wero sounds like we rob

[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk -5 points 9 months ago (24 children)

I'd prefer it is there was a crypto of the Euro. Then transfers can be peer to peer without any middle man, and middle man costs. With all open technology and assuming zero trust. It won't have the wild value swings because it is a real, regulated and controlled currency. Take the advantages and leave the anarchism.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

They are working on it: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html

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[–] pirateKaiser@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

That's controlled by the central bank, it's the opposite of decentralised

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[–] Renohren@lemmy.today 2 points 9 months ago

That's good to keep it fixed value. The transfers are decentralised but it is attached to something real. All the benefits of crypto without the dangers.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

They say it works offline so looks like it's P2P. If you want something not controlled by banks there's BTC. If you want to pay with it in stores/restaurants it has to backed by some legal entity.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 2 points 9 months ago

If also need to be stable. If you want a stable currency, which you do, you need control to correct it. Which is what central banks do. All we really want from crypto is open, trustworthy, p2p transfer.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago

Think a few countries are. We'll get open, trustworthy, p2p digital currency transfer one day!

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (17 children)

I'd prefer it if there was a useless pseudocurrency that burns 10 trees for every 0.1 point of it of the EU.

Fixed that for you.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (16 children)

There would be the mining if the currency is the Euro. Can't have people making Euros, it would destabilize the currency. So no mining, so different model, with different processing requirements.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (15 children)

So currency, but worse, thanks, love that

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (14 children)

It will be just cash, digitally. No wild value swings or mad mining rush. Money should be boring.

Part of how you keep it like that is you control the supply. Plus with an existing currency, no need to convince anyone anything. Normies go cross eyed when you explain value is all just belief. Economists get that, but they also get the need to be able to stabilize your currency. The belief in that control is as stabilizing as the control of supply of currency.

I just want currency in digital form that is secure and open source. We know how to do that. Have for a while now. Just take a while more to do it.

Death to systems like WorldPay.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (13 children)

That can be done without Crypto shit burning up the planet.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (12 children)

The problem you have with it is really the mining. Not the distributed block chain ledger.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (11 children)

I can't imagine any way to do crypto without that shite

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago* (10 children)

You can do blockchain without mining. You can do distributed blockchain without mining, just not in the same manner. And it can be cheaper than bitcoin mining, for example proof of stake.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (9 children)

I'm not on about money, I'm on about not burning a rainforest just for unstable unbacked funny money

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (8 children)

Crypto doesn't have to be like that. I agree it isn't a controlled currency. That was by design, but it is why it swings so wildly. I'm unconvinced it will ever stabilize. A country/trade-block will want to have ways to control the value to stabilize it.

As for funny money, well, money is just units of value that people agree the value of. It's all just belief based. Even if it is gold backed, which I don't think any are now today. If Musk found a massive gold asteroid, the value of gold would drop as he brought it to Earth. Even if there isn't really a gold asteroid. Just mass believing there is, reduces the value of gold. Everything's value is from our believe of it's use, scarcity and what we think everyone else value for it is. It's all funny money really!

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago* (7 children)

To be fair, if Musk found a massive gold asteroid it'd have no effect on the economy cause that stupid greedy Nepo baby would keep it all to himself.

You keep skirting around the key point of ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, as if you don't have an answer and so are intentionally avoiding the question btw.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

Well that also makes my point. If no one knows about the extra gold, it wouldn't effect the price of gold until it was noticed there was more of it. It is about the belief of scarcity, not the scarcity.

I'm saying not all cryptos are as damaging. "Proof of stake" instead of "proof of work", is all about reducing the load. But part of the reason for any mining is so the system is setup to pay those running the block chain. You could just have banks all running it and no payment built in. In fact, if it is for a traditional currency, you don't want it creating money. It's just a representation of it, like paper money. For that matter coins are, the metal is worth less than the value (or the coins get melted).

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (5 children)

Answer the question

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https://digiconomist.net/ethereum-energy-consumption

[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

I don't accept the premise that any crypto always wastes energy. Bitcoin is maybe the most energy hungry one but others use a lot less.

Ethereum energy use dropped by 99.84% when they moved from proof of work to proof of stake.

A national digital currency might work different again.

If this truely works, you could get rid of cash. All that metal and paper and distribution fades out. You could end up using less energy over all.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

At that point, just don't use crypto for it then?

We're already using digital currency in 75% of cases anyhow.

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

What I want is a system that is open source, secure and can do p2p. The natural way to do that is a cryptography based approach.

The current national currency systems are closed and as much about gate keeping, control and taking a cut, as enabling payment.

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[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

What you want is a pipedream

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[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 point 9 months ago

I'm not the only one who wants this. All exists in some form already. If it can't be open and secure, it is not secure at all. "security through obscurity is no security at all"

I want to pay for something directly from my phone by transferring to an address. Far better you push a known amount from your trusted device. Right now, it's pull from your card! Basically, right now, every machine you put your card in you are relying on pulling the same number it displays! This only works at all because of the nightmare control of middlemen like WorldPay. They can get stuffed. Try making something that needs payment right now.