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[+] 43 points 9 months ago (5 children)
  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Nah, people are way to stupid.

    Just look at all the comments already saying that "we need to have kids because are have smart genes and we need to fight against the evil stupid genes of the shit people"

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    Isn't that what you've just done?

    Was that an intentional joke?

    I'd rather look to egalitarian emancipatory remedies, than dwell on defeatism and succumbing to ploys of "pitchforks vs torches, or opposaming in service of the polluting oligarchs and kakistarchs.

    Avail the suppressed clean emancipatory techologies, abundance is restored, people no longer feel the economic duress, "it's easy to be an angel in heaven", and we'll see "it takes a village", and can all eagerly help care for the ever dwindling "unwanted kids".

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  • [–] 22 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Comics like this capture a shared feeling really well. Humor can be a simple way to process complicated times.

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    I have a solution for the toiletpaper thing: butt showering.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Get your body in a routine of popping before you shower and you never have to wipe again. Assuming you clean out your butt in the shower, of course.

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  • [–] 85 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

    Have a kid.

    18 years from now: β€œGood luck in the water wars, son”

    I’m too nice to do that to someone.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    My siblings' kids are all angry at the hubris their parents had to birth them. I love them and get it, but it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that and nihilism is so 2005. I think. I was pretty dissociated that year but I had a professor who talked about it a lot according to dissociated me's notes.

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    My wife and I had ours in 2024. I've always felt that it was my purpose to be an amazing dad to someone, because I didn't really have one.

    So I went ahead and became an amazing dad. I'm righting so many wrongs, healing, learning from and teaching myself, my wife and those around me, blah blah blah. There is just that much more love in the world and I feel so much more capable than I did before.

    Will my little one start asking the hard questions in 10-15 yrs?

    Probably. But they won't be alone.

    I am willing to bet that they won't be too far off from the ones I was asking at that age. Not only does little one have 2 committed, full-time, safe parents -- I also feel 100x more prepared to follow those inquiries than any adult figure that was in my life was when I was doing the asking. Yes, we are lucky. IMO it behooves the lucky ones to put in this work.

    "Nihilism" is the perfect descriptor for this flavor of antinatalism. I do get where it's coming from (because, believe me, we have struggles). And yeah, don't have a kid who you know won't be supported -- it's irresponsible. But don't pretend you're better off because of a choice we made for ourselves.

    I don't feel like we're even close to a stage where it's ok to just throw up our hands, turn away, and let the light die out. We need a turning towards and inwards to make a better place, even if the struggles are uncomfortable.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    My siblings’ kids are all angry at the hubris their parents had to birth them.

    It's a weird thing to be angry about. They now have agency over the world they live in. If they hate it, they can change it. That's an opportunity given to vanishingly few life forms on the planet.

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  • [–] 25 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    Not conservative Millenials/Z. Apparently.

    Judging by slices I see on Reddit/Facebook/Twitter, they are in alternate reality where all this is hysteria. The plan is to settle down with a tradwife and smile into their Rumble podcasts, I guess?

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  • [+] -11 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Judging by slices I see on Reddit/Facebook/Twitter, they are in alternate reality where all this is hysteria.

    It is hysteria. The outcry is fully unreflective of social conditions, at least within the United States. Go back to the 1980s, when all the millennials were being born, and describe the modern era - historic low crime, a superabundance of cheap consumer goods, massive housing surpluses, cheap and inexhaustible energy, no nuclear wars. We're not living with acid rain or radioactive wastelands or Soylent Green levels of food shortages. The scariest thing about AI is that it sucks.

    Imagine how many people wouldn't have had kids 40 years ago knowing the modern state of America.

    So much of this shit really is just terminally online doomerism. It's not material.

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    There’s an entire homeless camp near me that popped up in a month and it’s freezing. You should say it to them.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago*

    Homeless encampments don't appear out of nowhere. Have you talked to anyone in these camps? As often as not, they're migrant population forced from one place to another.

    If the weather warms (or the police clear them out) and they move somewhere new, will you assume the economy improved?

    If they'd been rounded up by ICE before they arrived, would you think the economy was still doing fine?

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  • [+] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I agree. But this is totally divorced from the urge to have children, which is far more biological and has never been blunted by economic downturn.

    Economic downturns contribute to higher infant mortality which often leads to people having more children with the anticipation that some won't survive to adulthood.

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  • [–] 52 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (8 children)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Didn%27t_Start_the_Fire

    "We Didn't Start the Fire" is a song written by American musician Billy Joel.

    Joel conceived the idea for the song when he had just turned 40. He was in a recording studio and met a 21-year-old friend of Sean Lennon who said "It's a terrible time to be 21!". Joel replied: "Yeah, I remember when I was 21 – I thought it was an awful time and we had Vietnam, and y'know, drug problems, and civil rights problems and everything seemed to be awful". The friend replied: "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's different for you. You were a kid in the fifties and everybody knows that nothing happened in the fifties". Joel retorted: "Wait a minute, didn't you hear of the Korean War or the Suez Canal Crisis?" Joel later said those headlines formed the basic framework for the song.[4]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

    🎡 We didn't start the fire 🎡
    🎡 It was always burning since the world's been turning 🎡
    🎡 We didn't start the fire 🎡
    🎡 No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it 🎡

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  • [–] 24 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    We did start the fire, about 400k years ago, some Homo created magic; a prodigy, a firestarter.

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  • [–] 22 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    No, adopt ones that are unwanted. Then it's not your fault that they exist, but they still need help.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    They just say they want you to have kids. They don't actually want that. If they wanted you to have kids they wouldn't have made everything so expensive. The tech oligarchs want a post-human world where they rule fiefdoms.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago

    I think that credits them with having a coherent plan besides "MOREEEE! MOOOOOOORE!!!!!"

    They want people to have more kids... but only white kids... but not only white kids, because they need to maintain the school-to-prison pipeline... but they don't want anyone to have enough money to want to have kids, except them... but it's okay, the humanoid robots will be slaves instead... but the humanoid robots don't actually work and are just piloted by people from India, one of the few industrialized countries which doesn't have an aging population... but clearly there's nothing we could learn from them, so maybe if we offered broke Americans $2,000 to have a baby... what do you mean $2,000 isn't enough to raise a baby, how many pencils could they really need... what do you mean baby formula plants are closing because babies aren't profitable enough because no one is having babies because we're taking all the money... clearly the solution is to ban abortion... but wait, I don't actually want that to apply to us rich assholes... so state-by-state abortion bans... but wait not enough states are voting to ban abortion...

    clearly the solution is to bomb Iran

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  • [–] 29 points 9 months ago*

    Lot of boomers in the comments continuing to live up to the stereotypes by finding new and infuriating ways to completely miss the point

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago* (6 children)

    https://www.yesigiveafig.com/p/part-1-my-life-is-a-lie

    tl:dr; to actually afford the bare minimum costs of living in the US, the average family of 4 needs an income of of ~140k.

    https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentiles/

    Only the top ~29% of households in the US have that much income.

    So uh, basically, 7/10ths chance the answer to the question is:

    No, not unless you want to raise kids you can't actually afford to raise, provide with a decent childhood.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Wanted to do the rough math for ZΓΌrich out of curiosity. According to this website, the cost of living in ZΓΌrich for a family of four is about CHF 8500 and the median gross monthly wage in the region is CHF 7502 (for full-time employment?) according to the bfs, so it's pretty comfortable with two working parents. Even for the 10th percentile (CHF 4761 / month) it's probably doable, but you need to factor in that families with young children need to pay for daycare as well. But there are benefits and aids as well, so I'm not exactly sure how liveable that situation really is. Also, taxes might be harsh or not very, i don't know either. All I know is that sustaining a family of four with both parents earning a wage at the 10th percentile in ZΓΌrich is at least very stressful.

    Also, I'm kinda sceptical about that cost of living calculation. That would equal around $130'000 a year which is lower than I would have guessed when compared to the $140'000 estimate for the USA, since cost of living in Switzerland and especially in ZΓΌrich are generally notoriously high.

    TLDR: Most people in Switzerland are relatively well-off.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    Interesting!

    Would you know where to find just the average/median income of a household, instead of an individual?

    That would be closer to the same rough math I'm doing with the US figures.

    If you were to try to set this up for another scenario, not a family of 4, but say, a single mom or dad with one kid, well then all the numbers change significantly.

    And yeah, the ... the whole mess of it is... who actually qualifies for what actual benefits, at what income levels?

    A huge problem with the way the US is set up (the article goes into this) is that basically you end up with multiple glass ceilings that you have to break through.

    You have to increase your income by substantial, not incremental amounts, for the net income gain to actually offset the benefits you now lose from only slightly breaching some income threshold.

    So the whole system actually functions to disincentivize or punish people who... 'succeed' more... but not enough more.

    Now, take that as your base scenario, and now... you tell me:

    How much debt does it make sense for you to go into, to get a college degree, that... may or may not actually result in you either... staying at the same income level, only slightly breaching some threshold/glass ceiling, or perhaps, substantially breaching that threshold/glass ceiling?

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Or not be from the us, like most people on earth.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

    Oh well I mean, I'm sorry I don't have the relevant data for... every country on earth, my bad.

    What do those numbers look like for Chile?

    EDIT:

    ... Also... Millenials and Gen Z are US-centric terms.

    Their etymylogical origin derives from describing generations within the US.

    What other country on earth has a mass shooting epidemic, predatory student loans and college costs crisis?

    I think its reasonable to respond to a comic made by someone from the Los Angeles, that references US issues... with data relevant to the US.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago

    Is a US dude extrapolating their thing to the whole world, as depicted in the comic lol.

    And is a common sentiment in doomeristic older milennials worldwide.

    We really need a good USdefaultism or ShitAmericansSay community on the threadiverse lol.

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago (15 children)

    Most of these points only apply to the US

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Don't you know USA is one of the 4 country in the world? The other 3 is China, Russia, and Europe.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    I dunno. Housing is pretty bad in Denmark, and things are generally becoming less affordable.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Sure, but we still have toilet paper and no mass shootings.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The toilet paper thing was so stupid. There was plenty available, but they didn't want to sell it in stores because it was made for commercial use. At the same time they didn't want to increase production for household supply since that would cost money and they wanted to use the shortage as an excuse to raise prices.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (1 child)

    We had that here too. For a week. Then it all sorted itself out. Mostly because people got their panic buying out of their system and everything returned to normal.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    The problem wasn't panic buying, at least not after the first rush. It was that demand for home use went up past the ability to supply during lockdown. Shifting part of the commercial supply to the grocery stores would have solved it immediately.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Sort of crazy to look at the birth rates in, like, the DRC or Afghanistan and conclude they must have done everything right.

    America can have birth rates on par with Pakistan and Somalia if they just obliterate access to birth control and end all public education. Concentrate large numbers of American teenagers into ghettos and refuge camps where there's nothing better to do than fuck. Guaranteed you'll get another baby boom inside ten months.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    They're way ahead of you on that. Education has become laughable and they have ICE concen... detention centers now.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    Everything I've heard about these camps suggest ICE agents are free to sexually assault the detainees.

    Gotta wonder what it says if the women in these camps suddenly have a higher pregnancy rate than their unincarcerated neighbors. I guess people are just really optimistic about the future in there?

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    "Have sex" - Shinzo Abe

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    no. you're supposed to be more racist. didn't get the memo?

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    I think the beginning minutes of Idiocracy really sum it up.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    It's not idiots multiplying. The majority of the voting public in developed countries is left-leaning. The right just know how to gerrymander the system better, and to make their media pundits more vocal

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    he majority of the voting public in developed countries is left-leaning.

    I don't think gerrymandering alone can account for most EU countries swerving to the right these last few years. Just yesterday Portugal got a center-left and a fascist to the second round for the presidentials. Looking at 3^rd^, 4^th^, 5^th^... yeah there's gonna be one more EU fascist president.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    well, you're right, there definitely is a growing trend too - but I put that down more to media manipulation of public opinion, than general idiocy spreading more than usual

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Lemmy sometimes annoys me with all this doomeristic boomer firstworlders.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah it's not just lemmy but it's certainly prevalent here. I think the allure is that it can feel 'sophisticated' and 'aware' to be cynical, but it is annoying.

    Especially the anti-natalists OMFG. 'Having children is like totally selfish and inmoral' oh jeez shut your trap. Like I get the anti-hyper-natalists because having like 5 children is also completely nutso these days, but. Well anyway.

    Tl;Dr: totally, dude

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  • [+] -11 points 9 months ago

    Antinatalists are the most annoying kind, with their cheap ass edgy morality that at the end of the day, is just a means to try and feel superior, somehow, to other people.

    Demograpic collapse is way more scary than any of those SciFi depictions of overcrowded cities... no doubt in under developed countries there is a real problem with that, but in so much the rest of the world, the problem is literally the opposite, people are getting old and the each new generation has to carry a weight that is not theirs, things like retirement will become impossible.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    its an undeniable fact that choosing to have children is a act of selfishness. As long as you're choosing to have said child, you're the only reason that child exists and you're doing it because you want it

    obviously it's not immoral though

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah this is also stupid because society would collapse if no one had children. Even a lowered birth rate is a calamity for a civilization. You should honestly be thankful everyday that people are brave enough to believe in the hope that their children might live in a better world because that's the only way you're going to be able to enjoy the rest of your life.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago*

    Yeah this is also stupid because society would collapse if everyone had 4 children. I'm not quite sure why you brought that up.

    no one is having children to benefit society.

    people have a right to have children to increase their own quality life and that's perfectly fine. I'm not denying the continuation of a race depends on procreation, but that's not an intelligent beings primary rationale

    Don't try to say they're doing it for me, it's delusional to think anyone is having a child for anyone else but themselves. (as long as they chose to have the child)

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago

    I think it's perfectly deniable that it's selfish if you believe your children would have more valuable existences if they existed than if they didn't, and there's some value in their lives. You do things because you decided to do them, not necessarily because they benefit you -- unless you believe you can trivially reduce all motivation to selfishness (which then reduces to the concept of selfishness to something so trite as to be meaningless)

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (11 children)

    And let them win?

    This is the line of thinking that leads to Idiocracy

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Nah, the line of thinking is unnecessary under capitalism. Capitalism will ensure the greediest piece of shit wins. Modern healthcare means idiots survive. It's a known near constant that intelligent people have fewer kids.

    It's all but guaranteed when the norm is to not pay attention to quality. and if the constant push for shitty low quality "AI" slop in everything as of recent is any indication... yeaaaa we're fucked.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Why is everyone so fond of this movie that is based on eugenics undertones?

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

    The premise is bad, but the portrayal of the nonsensical aspects of modern society are spot on and in many ways prescient. It just missed that what would make us dimmer would not be mating, but technology.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago

    The problem being that everyone uses it to say "dumb people reproduce more and that's the problem with humanity", which I'm sure the nazis would like but that I struggle seeing as an acceptable opinion.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    In some ways, sure. But it just depicts it as "People dumb, LOL" and not how that dumbness arises or persists. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens because specific groups of people (mostly conservative politicians and their leash-holders) discourage education and encourage reactionism. None of that is shown in Idiocracy. Without them, at least some critical thinking would persist or arise.

    People praising that movie as prescient want to believe that all their problems are just that everyone but them are idiots, because it absolves them of trying to help fix things. It means the problem is inevitable and unfixable. It also means those people are help creating the future they are critiquing as they abandon critical thinking for reactionism.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    But it just depicts it as "People dumb, LOL" and not how that dumbness arises or persists.

    Well, it's a comedy, not an education piece. It was never intended to have any sort of accuracy. People just relate to it because it seems like far too many people in charge make awful decisions because of ignorance, willful or otherwise.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    People relate to it because it gives them an excuse to blame their own ignorance on other people's assumed idiocy rather than intentional malice.

    And I agree it was never intended to be educational, which is why it's so damning that so many take it as gospel.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    The problem is not the things mentioned, but the fact that we had these and now we have decided that we don't need it

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