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[–] 69 points 10 months ago (18 children)

Well, duh, he has to swear on a book that means something to him, preferably a (to him) holy book. How weird would it be if he swore on a Christian bible. not being Christian himself?

The book is not there for our cultural values. It's there to ensure the person swears an oath on something meaningful to them. We just forgot about that because we are used to all sorts of public figures swearing oaths that mean nothing to them.

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  • [–] 30 points 10 months ago* (13 children)

    It truly is amazingly gratifying to see such genuine people as Mamdani & "The Squad" successfully stepping up to make a difference, and enough people actually voting for them to win. It's honestly the only hope I have left in this shithole.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    Fully with you there. A lot of people on the left are rapping on Schumer and Jeffries for being too moderate, and rightfully so. But I think there is a part of their extreme caution (or fecklessness) that comes from having seen more leftist candidates go down in flames in the past.

    Having people like Mamdani, AOC, and others win elections decisively makes a huge difference. They are not perfect, but they move the needle in the right (left) direction.

    It's like the progression from Bush to Trump in reverse.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (9 children)

    my god, you'll make up any number of excuses to avoid the fact that democrat politicians are not on your side. they are on the side of the ruling class. wake up.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Are we feeling bad about not voting effectively against trump and lashing out defensively again?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    @CannonFodder @bearboiblake What does "not voting effectively against Trump" mean?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    If you could have but didn't vote for the only possible competitor to trump who had a chance, ie Harris, then you enabled trump and are complicit in Trump's agenda. And although there are many states when voting had minimal effect, it still affects totals and mandate power.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    @CannonFodder By your logic if I had voted for Harris, I would be complicit in her agenda: the genocide of children in Gaza. Besides, do you really think she wanted to win? She knew that supporting genocide was losing her the support of her base, but she stuck to it like glue anyway. I don't know why she had such a hard-on for dead and maimed children, but that was HER decision.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Maybe surprisingly, there are a lot of center-left leaning Americans who support Israel. Or at least used to. Yes Harris wanted to win, and yes she believed supporting Israel was the best path. She (and Biden) voiced support for Israel to defend itself. And they voiced their dislike for Hamas. They never called for genocide, but they clearly failed to stop it. There was, and still is, plenty of misinformation out there and at the time of the election, many people were still thinking that the reports of atrocities by Israel were highly exaggerated. Hamas created the entire war purposefully to get tic toc views of people of Gaza getting killed by Israeli - so it seemed likely that they fabricated a lot of 'evidence' also. Whether it was because of this information fog, or because Trump encouraged them, Isreal has clearly gone right off the deep end. I would hope that there is a lot of support to push back significantly against Israel now and a democrat leader would be free to take an much stronger anti-genocide approach. They're never going to go full 'river to the sea' as they have a lot of Israeli supporters who highly value the safety of Jews in Isreal. But the point is, no matter how you look at it, the democrats are always better (although sometimes minimally) on every issue. So given the choice of one or the other it's absolutely moronic to not vote for the democrats. And that's the choice you had in the last election. Spin it how you want, but if you helped to put trump in power, you own it. If you really somehow think the Dems would be just as bad, despite the evidence, then stop complaining and enjoy your trump usa that is the same in your view to what things were a year ago.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    i don't know what you're doing, but I didn't vote for any genocidal or fascist candidates in any election, and I never will

    democrats make fascism inevitable

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Aha! I was bang on.

    Enjoy the speed run to fascism you helped cause.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    i'm not american, but ok, glad you care more about winning than about people fucking dying.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    Yes, I care about the people dying because of trump.
    In a perfect world, the U.S. would ditch the Democratic Party too, and move way to the left. But that ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes. The Dems winning is quite possible if people aren't fucking idiots again. And that would be better than what we have now by a long way.
    Don't let perfection distract you from better.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Hate to burst your bubble, but some 'progressive' posters are playing the Both Sides Are The Same Card because Mamdani and AOC haven't called for the US to nuke Israel

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago*

    That's nice. Every group has their extremists that lack a grounded perspective on achieving their goals & thus want to go too far, too fast (or who go out on their own and actually do so, which only serves to drag down the entire group in the end).

    While I agree we need to at the very least force a regime change in Israel, the reality is there's little point in calling for "nuking" them now when there's simply no way it's going to happen. It would only serve to put off more people from Progressives than keeping their current stance of opposition to Israel's actions clear, yet not actually calling them "enemies" worthy of nuking will. When Progressives actually have a prayer of accomplishing something and/or see that even the more "center" constituents have finally had enough of Israel - that's the time to stick their neck out & risk turning off some of their "moderate" supporters on the edge.

    At least that's my best guess as to their thinking, as I'm not even vaguely the type to be good at playing politics.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    If he swore in on a bible, or any other book, they would say he's avoiding a quran on purpose because he doesn't actually want to swear an oath on it

    No matter what he did, they were prepared to complain

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Does he though? When we were sworn in at MEPS, we didn't swear "on" anything. We held our hands up as a group and swore "to" protect The Constitution. Clearly that oath didn't mean as much to many veterans as it did to my friends and me.

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  • [–] 99 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Invoking religion is a ridiculous thing to have for a public office anyway, regardless of which one it is. If public officials in the US need to swear on anything, make it the US Constitution or whatever equivalent state/city charter they have.

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  • [–] 34 points 10 months ago

    Most of the people who've sworn an oath to defend the constitution from domestic enemies — literally tens of millions of Americans — have completely ignored their oath.

    They're a meaningless virtue signal at this point.

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  • [–] 27 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Like, if I cared about the reasoning for the bible swearing I wouldn't want a Muslim swearing on one instead of a Quran. Isn't this one of the arguments Christians use as to why they don't want to elect an atheist?

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago

    The quiet part they're not saying is that in their minds the fact he doesn't "believe" in their precious book (not that they follow it much themselves) invalidates him both as a politician and a person. It's just a more "politically acceptable" excuse for their irrational fear/hatred of someone different from them - they're afraid all the bullshit they've been programmed to believe all their lives about outsiders being out to get them is now going to come to fruition, and they'll pick at the most absurd things to claim it's true rather than admit they might be wrong.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The list of things that Christian Nationalist can't handle is damn nigh infinite.

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  • [–] 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

    I wish my life were so easy that my biggest worry was some random politician, in a place I don't even live in, swearing their oath on a book I don't like.

    Goddamnit I hate this world and fucking social media, turning everyone into a mini politician.

    This shit has no material effect on your life, and you should be angry about the stuff that does. (like wages.)

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    To be fair, they actually kinda live in the US?

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    NYC's Mayor does not affect White Trash Dave & Karen in BFE, WY.

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  • [–] 45 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You can take the oath on a fuggin' Harry Potter book if you want to.

    My .02, everyone taking a oath of office should use the Constitution.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    I'm pretty sure that you could use "Java for dummies" as a book for swearing if you wanted to. It's the swearing that matter, not the hand rest.

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (24 children)

    as an atheist, I'd have to think long and hard about what I took an oath on.

    Ultimately, I just don't believe there's anything which I believe would smite me for taking an oath on it and breaking it.

    Like my word holds more meaning than books.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I don't think many politicians think they will face any divine reprisal either. They swear an oath on a bible, then do all the heinous things they do

    Kissinger swore an oath on a bible, then signed off on the deaths of tens of thousands

    Trump swore an oath on a bible, then spent his first year protecting pedophiles

    Rick Scott swore an oath on a bible, shortly after stealing hundreds of millions from tax payers

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I mean, the Christian god is cool with genocide, commands it numerous times, tolerates all sorts of heinous things, and is at least as likely to protect pedos as Trump. (May also be one. Depending on how it worked with Marry. Lots to unpack there.)

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Personally, I might go for the Bill of Human Rights, or similar (I'm honestly not studious enough to have read it myself to know if it's lacking in some way, but whatever similar document best serves as what such a document should be would be the one I'd go for).

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (12 children)

    Given the critical mind that led you to your current atheistic beliefs (what I did there? :P), you have to have developed a mature moral code. I’d argue that taking an oath on something at the core of your being would be more binding than taking one based on any external books or faith system. (Muslim here btw but I love philosophy)

    Most people of faith don’t realise how most atheists develop strong intrinsic morality by necessity during their journey. And I’m not saying that all atheists are morally superior! (Humans be humans)

    This is just an observation based on my experiences and discussions with most of the open-minded ones I’ve come across thus far.

    Education beats indoctrination any day. And the well-informed believer has to go through an atheism phase (to varying degrees, so YMMV) to be honest with themselves. Doubt is a perquisite of developing independent morality that confirms faith. At least that’s what I believe.

    Edit: also to anyone reading this, don’t ask me about religious stuff, I’m not an Imam or anything. Just someone who went through some heavy shit and had to think outside the framework to make their life work.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    I agree with pretty much everything you said up until you implied they ultimately return to some form of customized religious belief (still gave the thumbs up, tho). If they do that, it's most likely because it's of comfort to them on some level to have that rather than completely obliterate the foundation of their childhood. There's certainly no logic to deciding something religious is responsible for reality when it's obviously one of the many things we are unlikely to ever know the true reason for - mainly because it's recursive: e.g. if "God" created all this, then how did God come to be? Then how did that come to be? Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Morality is most certainly possible without any kind of religious foundation. Ask me how I know.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    They don’t have to. That’s the beauty of it. Some never do. I don’t fault them for it and never will.

    Agency implies choice. So any religion stating that god gave us agency is bound to respect that. It follows that anyone going against this fact or arguing that said agency precludes certain choices does not really understand what free will is, nor the true message being conveyed by their own faith. :)

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    All right, now let me to respond to the other stuff without that misunderstanding looming in the way. :P

    If they do that, it's most likely because it's of comfort to them on some level to have that rather than _completely_ obliterate the foundation of their childhood. There's certainly no logic to deciding something religious is responsible for reality when it's obviously one of the many things we are unlikely to **_ever_** know the true reason for - mainly because it's recursive: e.g. if "God" created all this, then how did God come to be? Then how did _that_ come to be? Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Are you speaking of Gödel’s Incompleteness theorem? Sorry if that’s not the correct name. I call it the N+1 problem personally (long story), but the gist is that we can’t observe our universe in its entirety without looking from a higher dimension with at least one more axis.

    I think that’s essentially the recursiveness you’re speaking of: we cannot study our reality because it requires a perspective/view point that’s located outside of it. Correct?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Poetry used to provide an 'external' answer to Gödel, in that regard. Now I am not sure what, we're stuck with memes I guess.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    It’s all about perspective. If we can’t truly see from without, why not nudge the viewport from within a bit? :P

    Creative work and literature (memes also count!) are a great medium for exploration in this regard. Like… look at that Robert J. Sawyer’s book “Calculating God” (he’s one of my absolute favourite authors because of that book and others) and the fire it lit under so many butts in some “intellectual” circles, just by exploring the unconventional and discussing something both sides of the argument aren’t comfortable with.

    I love things like that. Things that require your brain to do some squats and warm up before reading the next chapter.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    You might find the teachings of Bhuddism or The Baha'i faith to be enlightening. Their philosophies are remarkably similar.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I did brush up on Buddhism amongst others during my youth, although not very deeply because I couldn’t do that for all religions without dedicating my entire life to that pursuit. Some things made sense, some are more contextual and require a certain lingual/cultural background/upbringing that I lacked, as is the case with most religions (mine included). A lot of nuance is lost in the translation. Not to mention that this was the early Internet and before machine translation was a thing. Most of that knowledge came from forum discussions, irc, and through books.

    As for the Baha’i faith: I’ll admit I’m not very familiar. I might look it up when I have some free time though!

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    confirms faith

    Yeah I'm gonna have to stop you there

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    No you won’t, because that’d be a knee-jerk reaction resulting from the lack of consideration/understanding of the other, so not so dissimilar to religious zealousness, which you disapprove of judging by that knee-jerk reaction.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Ok then, please explain how "faith," something that defies logic/explanation, by definition, can be "confirmed".

    How would it still be "faith" in that case, and not just "reality"?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I don’t “owe” you an explanation, nor do I have to justify my worldview to you. Your excessive use of “quotes” and general tone imply you’re already assuming a condescending stance which would not be conducive to a constructive discussion.

    So I’ll pass on that one. Thank you though.

    Tap for spoilerAnd I hope this won’t follow the typical pattern I’m usually confronted with in this situation: the “you’re just evading because you know I’ll prove you wrong/roast you” comeback/argument. Because this isn’t a zero sum game, and if that’s the conclusion then I’m not interested.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Can someone be sworn in on Carl Sagan’s Cosmos?

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    If he doesn't believe in the Bible, what keeps him from being a murdering rapist?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    IMO, we all should really be sworn in on a copy of the State and/or Federal constitution.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago*

    The idea is that the document you swear on has meaning to you. Politicians don't give a flying fuck about the constitution so long as it lines their wallets and keeps them fat and happy. Swearing on a document is inane and meaningless and it's 100% for show. It's meant to keep the people happy for whom the document they are swearing on, holds meaning to in the first place. Make them swear on a signed contract that states, not upholding the written law would mean forfeiting their lives and then maybe it might mean something, as long as there were some enforcement behind that sort of thing.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I’m going to pledge my oath on a box of pizza :)

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Can I be sworn in on the Calvin and Hobbs anthology.

    Or maybe a cdrom of Encarta 95?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I mean if Christian Nationalists had their way, nobody would be swearing on anything because democracy would be abolished got a Christian theocracy.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If I become a politician, I will swear on a hentai or a videogame. Things that I care about, and represent me as a person.

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  • [+] 5 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    The complete speechless freeze upon being informed that the Bible isn't legally required was absolutely precious! (I honestly thought the video ended there, the pause & freeze-up lasted so long.) These proudly ignorant assholes are determining the rules for ALL of us to play by, and what we have today is the inevitable result. It's only going to get much worse if we can't turn the ship around quickly.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    If I took an oath, it would be on a copy of the constition or Detective Comics 27 (First Batman), maybe both.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    There's no law requiring you to swear on a Bible, or on any religious text at all. You can simply raise your hand and take an oath or make an affirmation. The Constitution prohibits religious tests for public office and protects freedom of religion, so there is no legal requirement to use any particular book.

    More importantly, the law doesn't care what object you swore on. What matters is that you made a legally binding oath or affirmation. If you knowingly lie after taking that oath in a legal proceeding, you've committed perjury. The book itself has no legal significance.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Die mad NatC's.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    I think the best way to honor the TRUE MEANING of LIFE, Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness, is to swear on the sock that you um... do that stuff with... to pay respects to the 50% of genetic materials that will never become life, that that you will swear on their names (well... the lack of names) to faithfully execute anyone that abandones their children or emotionally abuses them, and that I do take this oath freely, so help me Saint Mangione.

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