Flip flop (discuss.tchncs.de)
submitted 10 months ago by to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
 

This image was created by /u/kuebic@discuss.tchncs.de for this comment here: https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/21735989. I had encouraged them to post it somewhere, but as far as I can tell, they never did.

Panel 1: “Installing Windows 20 years ago” screenshot of install wizard with just a couple buttons
Panel 2: “Installing Linux 20 years ago” screenshot of a busy command line
Panel 3: “Installing Windows today” screenshot of a busy command line
Panel 4: “Installing Linux today” screenshot of install wizard with just a couple buttons

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[+] 62 points 10 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 55 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Caldera had a GUI installer in 1998…

    Caldera OpenLinux Installer

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  • [–] 58 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Ugh. That reminds me of the Microsoft admin fanboys where I worked, dissing Linux because its all command lines, while saying that MS inventing PowerShell was a stroke of genius making their lives easier.

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  • [–] 30 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I had a coworker, about 30 years old... Who taught computer science at a college prior to us working together... Who said to me "Command line? That stuffs ancient, man."

    Just in case you were thinking about spending money on college tuition to learn computer science...

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Meanwhile in Finland my first exposure to a Unix shell was in an introductory IT course in uni, and that inspired me to switch to Linux four years ago. Without all of that I would have never got my current internship where 90% of my work is in the terminal.

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  • [–] 100 points 10 months ago (22 children)

    My favourite part of the Linux installation process is when it automatically places itself before windows in the grub menu boot order

    Inb4 don’t dual boot: I occasionally need to for work 🫩

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  • [–] 120 points 10 months ago (16 children)

    Better than Windows just straight up overwriting your Linux boot partition on an update.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Just boot partition?

    I once installed Linux Mint by shrinking Windows 10 partition in Linux against the recommendations. On first Windows boot it seemed fine, except that C: was still showing the old size.
    On next Windows reboot it got annihilated with "Repairing drive C:".

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I wouldn’t blame Windows for this one. In this case, this is likely because the Windows partition table wasn’t updated when you changed your C: partition, so Windows legitimately thought there was filesystem corruption because the size didn’t match its partition table.

    You should always used the currently installed OS to free up space first, so it’s aware of the change. Then run the installer and install to the free space you made.

    Or better yet, use separate physical drives for different OSes.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Problem is, Linux Mint installer says nothing about that as far as I recall, and just offers a convenient slider to allocate space between Windows and Linux.

    And that was my first computer. Yeah, I am relatively new to computers.

    But hey, I only lasted with Windows for 2 days. In Windows 10 I couldn't even wrap my head around when to use Control Panel and when settings, because look, mature OS, we have Settings 1 and Settings 2.
    In comparison, Linux Mint 20 MATE was far simpler, so having really used neither, I went with the easier one. However, that doesn't mean I had any idea what I was doing. I didn't even understand the concept of partitions.
    Just imagine a total newbie.
    "Where is the file stored?"
    "On... the computer...?"

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  • Fair enough, though Linux Mint also didn’t really know for sure what that partition was (other than assuming Windows because it was probably NTFS).

    Disk partitioning is always a risk if you don’t know what you’re doing (and sometimes even when you do) which is why it’s always good to have backups!

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    There's no such thing as ‘Windows partition table’, unless MS came up with some new nefarious bullshit. The partition table is global for everyone, and any partition manager program modifies that.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    That really only happens if you use the same drive for both installs, though

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  • [–] 32 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    You say that as if it’s an excuse. No program should ever overwrite an existing filesystem without explicit consent from the user.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    What is this con-cent you speak of? Some kind of... negative currency? A bad smell?

    • Microsoft, allegedly
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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    During my distro hopping phase of 2011, I tried out a distro called IP Fire. It wiped out my whole drive on boot.

    I still have that laptop, hoping one day I'll retrieve that data.

    That is a shitty design and for an outfit a big as Microsoft, I feel that it is intentional

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Ipfire is a linux firewall software lol?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Apparently performs as router and firewall distro. I have no idea what possessed me to install that at the time over 10 years ago. But in any case, bad on me for blindly trusting an unknown source and bad on them for a dick shit design.

    But I know one thing is for sure, that name is pretty accurate. A lot of my own "IP" was torched.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Dual booting is perfectly fine. Just try to not use the windows boot partition for both OS or Windows will occasionally "lose" the Linux entry... "Oops" I guess.

    If Linux is on its own drive, or at least has it's own uefi partition, it's just fine and dandy. Just chain load windows from it and there's basically nothing that can break.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Afaik having two uefi partitions isn't recommended for some reason. Linux Mint writes Grub into the same partition that Windows is using.

    Thankfully, I'm not planning to let Windows update anything anymore, but ymmv for others.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    If you work for yourself I get it. If you work for someone else, get them to have a desktop for you there and remote in.

    I put windows in a docker on my server, and keep an instance on Azure that only comes alive when I need it. I remote into either one if I have to. No more dual boot.

    Just giving you some options. Also it lets me travel while knowing if I need windows even on the road I have one.

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  • [–] 45 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    20 years ago it was way easier to install Linux from a boot disk (like ubuntu or suse) than windows from scratch. Sometimes XP didn't have the necessary drives and you'd need to find bootable drivers and load them from a floppy disk

    It was even easier to install OSx86 on my laptop than windows vista from scratch in 2007

    Maybe this is one of those thinking that 20 years ago was the 90s

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago

    Yeah in 2005 every major distro had a decent clean gui installer. I recall at the time using fedora. Then Ubuntu a few years later.

    But god help you if you needed wifi drivers.

    Even in the 90s Redhat had a decent installer.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Well that screenshot was accurate for Gentoo circa 2005, it's just the worst choice for ease of install, with Linux graphical installs provided by suse, mandrake, and redhat from the 90s.

    Fair point could be made that the out of box experience was sorely lacking and you pretty much had to configure;make install most software you actually wanted...

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    2005... could have had Sabayon Linux. Easy way to install gentoo with a gui installer. So even then. [Initial release 28 November 2005]. Maybe even other convenient gentoo respins before that.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    I am new to linux Mint and mullvad had an update ready, so i clicked update. It just stayed downloading on 0% for like 5 minutes, so i remembered this ISN'T WINDOWS. So i opened terminal and sudo apt upgrade and Mullvad was updated and new version installed.

    It's weird how windows makes things looks easy, but then they don't work well. Linux makes things look difficult, but it they work well.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    to be fair if it had an update button, that should have been enough for it. you don't need to run commands because this is the Linux Way, but because better solutions are not there yet

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I mean, aptitude and Synaptic update packages or the whole system fine. It's just that Mullvad has no business trying to do that itself.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    apt and synaptic is not really user friendly though. but something based on packagekit can show a better program ctalog, and even provide automatic updates, or even just reminders that there are new updates.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    Not exactly. The GUI variant of the updater that you tried also didn't work well.

    CLI mostly works ok (unless a bug causes your DE to be uninstalled if you try to install steam), but GUI is very hit-and-miss.

    Just the other day I had a bug in XFCE where I want to scale up the contents of the screen. So I use the GUI display config tool, set the scale to 0.5 (because for some reason they scale the wrong way round, <1 enlarges, >2 makes things smaller). It does work, the display gets scaled up.

    After I'm done I want to scale back down and the GUI display config tool just locks up on startup and only shows a blank window with a few blank dropdowns.

    A bit of googleing later I found the config file where I can change it back and once I changed the scaling to 1 again, the GUI tool worked again.

    I've been using Linux exclusively for many years now, but without google I couldn't have fixed that.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (35 children)

    My favorite conspiracy of the moment is that Microsoft intentionally does this New Coke thing and then they will roll out actually good Windows and make all of DA MONY AND KEEL DA LEENOOCKS DIZIZZ. But it's Microsoft, so the long game will go on forever and there will be no pay off. Also - Mint is soooo gooooood to use compared to Win11

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (25 children)

    People forgot already...

    EVERY SECOND WINDOWS IS GOOD Win XP good, Vista bad, 7 good, 8 bad, 10 good, 11 bad, 12 good?

    Only this time around Linux got to the point where everyday users can switch and only run into debiliating problems twice a year, so MS is losing customers.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    The fuck? XP was awful. I left because of it. What are you on about?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Maybe you had a specific experience with It, but XP was and is considered universally a good windows version, compared to its predecessors and the posterior Vista. Only losing to windows 7 when it launched.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Security was awful, multi user wasn't, windows started the Microsoft id program with it, they lied about removing programs with an apllication that only hid them, they tied music downloads to explorer only, and that's only the tip of the iceberg.

    It was a nasty looking mess, got hacked in 10 minutes if you put it on the internet until service pack 3, and in person it wouldn't last 3 minutes.

    That's leaving out the crazy licensing programs they introduced.

    It was really, really bad. But since a lot of people knew nothing before it, they look back at it with rose colored glasses. It was truly garbage.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yes it had very bad flaws, which didn't discourage its wide range of use. One can say it's not objectively good, but it's subjectively not bad.

    As I answered below, it was part of the "good guys" versions of windows, not receive popular backlash like windows ME, 8 and 11

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    So if you're correct with that, that NewNewAugustEast and I find it intolerably bad means we must exist outside the universe?

    Is this what happens... to the perception of those who remained with windows, those who escaped to FOSS, apparently just ceased to exist?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Nothing of the sort, just said it based on the general usage, for all the flaws it had, It was, undeniably a very popular and used piece of software.

    At the time of its peak, it was not universally bashed against like Windows ME, 8 or Vista. It was well received like windows 95, 7 and10

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    All windows after 7 was just a downward spiral of shittiness.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    You say so yet 10 is fast, convienient and easy to use. Wouldn't call it better than 7, but it was good.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    fast, convenient and easy to use

    I wonder how it feels compared to AntiX Linux.

    [Or VoidLinux with any Window Manager. ~ for different strokes a little further into the FOSS adventure.]

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I feel like the very moment we go for any linux aimed at being lightweight, windows loses due to cramming cramming as much compatibility and tools as is possible inside.

    ...

    ...and also you got me intrested in AntiX. I have old laptop that struggles even with Debian...wonder if that would work on it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    AntiX is a great choice for lightweight and easy.

    However, I find even the most fully-loaded out-of-the-box distros crammed with everything including the kitchen sink are still lighter to run than windows.

    But if even modern AntiX is too much for some ancientware, there are weirder niches of tiny & fast, like tinycore, slitaz, puppy (or forks of puppy), deli and damnsmalllinux (old versions especially), and others for old computers

    Even debian (or (better yet) devuan) could work well on wimpy hardware with a clever choice of a lightweight DE/WM, like LXDE or IceWM... (but if you opt for IceWM, you may as well stick with AntiX, where it has IceWM already well configured). Don't have to stick with the old heavy bloaters like XFCE (not as light as promoted), GNOME, KDE, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    Nah, 10 is the primordial ooze from which all the current vile evil coming out of microsoft was formed.

    7 was faster, more convenient, less in your way, and just overall a superior product. No microsoft OS has even equaled what 7 was, much less be superior to it.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Straight up said I wouldn't call 10 better than 7. So what's your point? 10 is, overall, good OS. Not best, not great, good.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Straight up said I wouldn’t call 10 better than 7. So what’s your point?

    10 is the primordial ooze from which all the current vile evil coming out of microsoft was formed.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Agree to disagree. 10 is fast, reliable and convienient. I agree it served as a sandbox for all the shit they crammed into 12, but it doesn't change anything.

    Still would prefer 7. Kinda loved 7.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    And thats where we can come together. 7 was the best, the peak of microsofts excellence.

    I'd probably still be running it today if I could, but it died, and my choice was Windows 11 or Linux.. so I went linux, and never looked back.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    All after win 2000 was complete shit.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Even 2000, it was the roller coaster starting its decent, worsening after NT. Barely indistinguishable, but there were clues, the trajectory had started to tip down.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    I think it was Windows 2000 I had to install on a laptop for someone..

    This was 20+ years ago, so I dont remember the details..but i think there was like 11-13 floppies for the install that I had at the time? All of them OEM floppies.. I think from microsoft, but maybe from the laptop OEM?.. and every time I ran the installer another disk would fail, and i'd have to go online and find that disk image and burn it to a replacement floppy. It was the worst OS install experience of my entire life, lol. I think by the time I was done I had replaced all but the first oem disk.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    EVERY SECOND WINDOWS IS GOOD

    Is that what microsoft put in the microsoft windows subliminal messaging subsystem?

    (or whatever its called now)

    Only this time around Linux got to the point where everyday users can switch and only run into debiliating problems twice a year, so MS is losing customers.

    It's been better than that for around quarter a century. From 2003, I had my first distro run solid for 4 years, before choosing to switch, ran that one for near 4 years too (with more meddling for fun), before switching to what it was based on (and in a sense, been with various installs of mostly that since... call that 2nd or 3rd time lucky). One does not have to go with a distro that does a 6 month fixed release cycle. Long term support can go 5 years (and eased seamless transitions are possible anyway, so that's near meaningless). Rolling can go forever. There's still Arch if you want debilitating problems (more than) twice a year. ;D (Now watch me be beat to death with baseball bats that say "Arch BTW" for saying that. lol)

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (8 children)

    Is there any coke alternative that's almost as good and in some regard better, but for free?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    nope, but i have no idea how else to describe their counterproductive logic

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    I bought Pepsi after a long time of drinking almost no sodas, and none of big-brand ones (and I prefer Pepsi to Coke generally). It was somewhat of a shock as to how loaded it was with caffeine and sugar. Next time I'll rather get store-brand soda that's five times cheaper and has barely any sugar and no caffeine, even if it's blander in taste.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    You also had to spend hours tweaking your install in any Linux distro. Now most work out of the box.

    Windows on the other hand...

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Also not Linux dependent, I’m sure windows users spend hours tweaking their installs to how they want it.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Not as much as we have to now.

    I'm usually a Windows shield-bearer around these parts, because it's not quite as much of a dumpster fire as people say (please for the love of god don't debate me on this, I prefer Linux and have better things to do), but this is inarguably something Windows has gotten far far worse at. Out of the box experience (besides having to shove drivers into the install media) used to be a pretty definitive thing that Windows beat Linux on. Install and it "just werkd". It used to be the cornerstone of pushback, that Linux required you to tinker and Windows didn't. But Microsoft destroyed their lead in that so they only have (fast dwindling) business appeal and entrenchment to lean on now.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    not quite as much of a dumpster fire as people say

    Yeah. It's not the dumpster on fire. This is fine.

    Out of the box experience (besides having to shove drivers into the install media) used to be a pretty definitive thing that Windows beat Linux on. Install and it “just werkd”. It used to be the cornerstone of pushback, that Linux required you to tinker and Windows didn’t.

    When I switched to Linux in late 2003, with SuSe, iirc everything just worked, out of the box, and I ran it vanilla for a couple years. Didn't even need to install an image manipulation program, or an office suite, or a second web browser, or many other things, because it all came already installed. When did windows ever have a sound argument for "the cornerstone of pushback" claiming to be superior for "just werkd"? The early 90s? I doubt even then. Seems from my experience like it was more likely always advertising FUD.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Don't forget to remove the french language pack

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    [–] 31 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Installing windows for most of that time hasn't been a thing people do. They bought a computer and it had the internets (the picture with the blue e) and the word (the picture with the paper and a W) and that was pretty much them sorted. We're weird for knowing the difference and that's not a bad thing to be.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Installing windows for most of that time hasn't been a thing people do

    I remember reinstalling win95 almost daily because how it could break with just a power loss(which happened regularly to me then).

    But then I remembered 20 years ago is when winxp was already 4 years old.

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