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Valve Responds To Steam Machine's HDMI 2.1 Display Support Controversy [HW support is there, but "The HDMI forum" doesn’t allow with OpenSource drivers] (hothardware.com)
submitted 11 months ago by to c/pcgaming@lemmy.ca
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[–] 141 points 11 months ago (52 children)

https://www.phoronix.com/news/HDMI-2.1-OSS-Rejected

It's pretty weird that this organization that exists only to extract rents from people who want to use hdmi remains unwilling to do so even for a customer as large as Valve. I wonder who has given them the motivation for it, and how much it cost them.

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  • [+] 113 points 11 months ago (9 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 44 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    They're not fucking with AMD and Valve just because they spontaneously developed an irrational hatred of partly-open platforms. Somebody has persuaded them that they have a financial incentive to do it.

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  • [–] 61 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    The movie studios. As the person above said, the HDMI consortium (owned by movie studios) is focused on protecting their members IP rights from pirates. HDMI has built in DRM, that could be removed from an open source driver.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    so what you’re saying is we need to make hdmi driver patches to allow direct file saving from video streams?

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Well, one of the master keys leaked about 15 years back. A researcher posted a paper back in 2003 or so that outlined a method of finding a master key that was likely used by the people who made the release. It was a fun time to be on the internet, the people came together and said, yeah fuck those corpos and everyone reposted the key to every form of social media possible. I knew someone with the key tattooed on their arm (as part of their piracy themed artwork, I used to have pictures)

    Now, that particular master key was patched out with a compatibility breaking upgrade, specifically 2.1 of the standard, which was proven to be broken in 2012, but there was less coming together to share it the second time, or the third for 2.2 of the standard.

    But yes, if you wanted to code your own, you easily could. Just don't share it or the sue happy corpos will come knocking.

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  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    Maybe it is the movie studios, but there don't appear to be any of them on the list of HDMI Forum members, or on its board of directors. So my first guess was some combination of Microsoft, Nvidia, Sony, and Apple. Whoever it is though, the question is how they went about convincing the HDMI Forum as a whole to take such a self-destructive approach.

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago*

    The HDMI founders were Hitachi, Matsushita (now Panasonic), Maxell, Philips, Silicon Image (now Lattice Semiconductor), Sony, Thomson (now Vantiva), and Toshiba.[3] Intel contributed the HDCP copy protection system.[4] The new format won the support of motion picture studios Fox, Universal, Warner Bros. and Disney, along with content distributors DirecTV, EchoStar (Dish Network) and CableLabs.[2]

    While Sony is a technology company, they're also a very sue happy IP holder through Sony pictures and Playstation.

    Sony continues to be a major player on the HDMI forum.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    I haveb't looked into this particular group, but usually it's patents. Someone owns a patent for the tech required to implement the standard, and they "license" it out to anyone who wants to implement that standard. Obviously, they won't agree to terms that hurt their ability to collect rent on their patent. Qualcomm is famously guilty of this in the modem space.

    Does that seem stupid, to adopt an industry standard that requires patented technology to implement? That's because it is, and were we a sane society we would invalidate any patents that become an industry standard, but we're a bunch of idiots with a billionaire cuck fetish.

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago (42 children)

    It's wild how much we flock around such shitty standards all the time, generation after generation.

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  • [–] 75 points 11 months ago (41 children)

    We don't flock to it, they are forced upon us. Finding TVs that support DP is almost impossible.

    One of the biggest problems is that shitty standards use the money they get from licensing the standard to push the standard. Good open standards often don't have a marketing budget to play with. On top of that, shitty standards can make unrealistic promises to gain an advantage. Like HDMI does with DRM. "If every device uses this standard, piracy will be a thing of the past!"

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    Yes, that is what I meant, the 'we' used like an alien might observe us.

    Theoretically we could stop buying TVs, but practically we are forced into it by supply.

    And yes, licencing a standard beyond dev should be just illegal, it hurts (almost) everyone.

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  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (39 children)

    We don't flock to it, they are forced upon us. Finding TVs that support DP is almost impossible.

    Nothing is forced on anyone. If people refused to buy them they would be forced to add other ports.

    However as someone who considers themselves fairly techy and doesn't comply with such shitfuckery, I only learned about this last week.

    Moving forward I just won't be buying any TVs at all.

    Edit: God fucking forbid any of you actually do anything, or even better, refrain from doing anything, besides bitch and moan on the internet.

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  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    That’s great for you, but try to convince one other person who’s not already in your headspace they should not buy any more TVs. That’s almost an impossible ask. Like telling someone not to get an Android or iPhone because of the data collection. Geeks like us can put up with these inconveniences but we’re a very small minority.

    People are still going to get the product unless there’s a truly viable alternative available. Until we see a new standard whose goal is to specifically target replacing HDMI in this context, there’s not really any way to suggest people “vote with their wallet” on something as common as HDMI.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. This is about corporations asking consumers to bend over and get fucked, and consumers as a whole repeatedly lining up to take it.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago* (3 children)

    They’re not lining up to take it though. It’s all they’re given. When HDMI was new, most people skipped component cables entirely and went straight from 480i analog to 720p digital overnight and the only way to do that at the time was HDMI. Years and years later, we still only have HDMI and DP as the two standards and they’re not putting the alternative on TVs.

    The consumer does have the responsibility to make the choice, but only when those choices are actually presented to them. If there were DP TVs as available options, I’d agree with your point, but I’m not about to ask my friends to boycott HDMI TVs anytime soon because I know all it will do is inconvenience them and it won’t make a lick of difference in the market.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    They’re not lining up to take it though

    They are though.

    It’s all they’re given

    Then they can choose not to buy anything, or to buy a computer monitor.

    it won’t make a lick of difference in the market.

    This is the defeatist mentality that keeps them so successful.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    Gather ‘round the 27” gaming monitor for the big game this weekend at my place!

    Okay sure

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  • [–] -2 points 11 months ago*

    No one is saying it's great. But that's the point. You have to choose between convenience and getting fucked. And overwhelmingly people will choose the former. And that's what they're counting on.

    Choose the latter and those stupid fucking companies are forced to bend to your will and then you can buy whatever fuckin TV you want.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    As end consumers we individually have no power to affect the types of products that are offered. What am I supposed to do? Find me a TV that supports DisplayPort

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago (25 children)

    This ethical position is such crap in the modern era and if you take it you simply aren’t going to be contributing to this conversation much longer. Unless you go full stallman and get a specific laptop from 15 years ago with very specific hardware that you can flash and install very specific software onto it you have to make peace with the fact that as a modern consumer the landscape has fucked you.

    Your choices are to moderate how fucked yoh get in terms of anticonsumer bullshit because the market is stacked against you and the illusion of choice is always there. HDMI is a great example, smartphone platforms outside of android and ios is another. Are their options outside of these walled gardens? Technically but they’re generally much worse and often cost more than a comparable model.

    It’s just you can refuse to buy an iphone, you can refuse to buy an android, but you can’t really refuse to buy a smartphone in the modern era. You can refuse to buy a tv but you can’t really refuse to buy a display of some kind. You might think you beat the system if you just get a laptop or computer monitor I guess but not really, monitors increasingly don’t have DP and frankly the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway. Consumers are idiots who will continually vote to fuck themselves. We need regulatory oversight.

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  • [+] -7 points 11 months ago (24 children)

    the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway

    Voting with your wallet is literally the only way things will ever improve.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    See how well that has worked over the past 40 years? I mean don’t buy shit you don’t support obviously but don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.

    It’s because the average consumer is dumb but this isn’t an indictment of the average consumer, necessarily. The average consumer doesn’t want to have to do research on every fucking thing they buy to find out the nefarious bullshit about it. Oh the tv doesn’t support open connection standards, oh my phone is a walled garden built for data collection, oh this smart lightbulb is a privacy nightmare with bullshit tos and also has security issues, etc. They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.

    That’s where regulatory oversight comes in: given the above and a consistent lack of consumer ability to enforce standards we need political oversight to pick up the slack. This is a unified arm where a consumer frustration can turn into action much more quickly, even if sales continue because of market fuckery (eg tvs still selling because you can only buy hdmi TVs). But unfortunately we live in a country where the tech industry has performed a near and total regulatory capture and has no fear that regulatory oversight will ever occur, and they’re probably right, at least for now.

    So you’re wrong that it’s the only way, and I would argue it’s the most ineffective and inefficient way. It just feels like it’s the only way because of our failed state political situation where even a regulatory concern that should be a slam dunk like right to repair often either fails or only passes in a greatly neutered state because the local politicians thought Microsoft and Apple made some great points about preventing local jobs so that tech billionaires could continue to make even more money

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  • [+] -6 points 11 months ago (9 children)

    See how well that has worked over the past 40 years?

    ...extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?

    don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.

    ...of course a single person boycotting a product does nothing. People educating themselves about the products they buy and making conscious decisions to buy consumer-friendly products when buying shit (especially expensive shit) does.

    They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.

    Plenty of people know and just don't care. I know because I have these types of conversations all the time.

    That’s where regulatory oversight comes in

    See how well that has worked over the past 2000 years?

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked? Especially in terms of anti consumer decisions and not just culture war bullshit where the sales trends are almost always temporary and linked to collective groups that apply pressure onto retailers.

    People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point. People don’t want to do this about every fucking thing. You’re on lemmy. You’re a fucking nerd. I’m not disparaging you, I’m here too. I like researching my product purchases and I get angry about this shit. But my partner? My parents? My neighbors? My siblings? Most of the people I work with? They don’t give a fuck. They don’t want to be bothered. They want to just buy a tv and watch it. We are the minority.

    This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided. So let’s say you set up the framework for it: it’s already mostly there, obviously, since you and I can find this info. But then you need to address why most people don’t care. Education? Resources? Other systemic issues? Good luck doing that on a timeline that isn’t generational. In the meantime big tech tightens their stranglehold significantly on the systems that control the majority of the fucking world.

    I have seen how regulatory oversight can work. It’s a fight and a battle to keep it working, of course, with constant attacks. That’s why regulatory states that have seen some success, like the EU, are failing, and others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago

    As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked?

    Already answered this several times, including the comment you just replied to.

    People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point.

    Yes, that is indeed the point.

    This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided.

    That doesn't make anything I said untrue.

    others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric

    You think China, of all places, is making consumer-focused and ethical products?

    China sees increasing success because they have no minimum wage and no concept of IP. So the world outsourced vast swathes of production infrastructure there only to have all their IP stolen and reproduced without any of the R&D costs. Then the government sudsidizes it to hell even further so that they can apply the Amazon model of enshittification to the global economy.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    ...extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?

    Can you provide evidence of it working extremely well?

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Every time ever? How about Disney getting mass subscription cancellations after canning Kimmy Kimmel?

    They can't sell shit that people don't buy.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

    How does a subscription compare to TV purchases? How does that one instance of politically driven consumer action equate to "every time ever"? Have you heard of Nestlé? People have boycott them forever and they still exist. Why?

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    How does a subscription compare to TV purchases?

    How does it not? It's a withheld purchase (AKA "voting with your wallet")

    How does that one instance of politically driven consumer action equate to "every time ever"?

    It doesn't and wasn't supposed to. The last part did.

    Have you heard of Nestlé? People have boycott them forever and they still exist.

    They obviously don't or they wouldn't exist.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    They obviously don't or they wouldn't exist.

    Got it, so in your case, if it applies to your argument, it's possible and works "every time ever", and if it goes against your argument, it doesn't exist and no one is boycotting.

    You are not arguing in good faith, and only want to be right in this instance.

    I'm sure you've never bought a display, GPU, or computer with HDMI, and I'm sure you've advocated for your friends and family to stop buying anything with HDMI certification. Right?

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago

    so in your case, if it applies to your argument, it's possible and works "every time ever", and if it goes against your argument, it doesn't exist and no one is boycotting.

    Yes, because it's not logically possible. Once again, if people stop buying them, they can't sell them. And they'll be forced to make something else that people will want to buy.

    I didn't say "no one", but it doesn't have to be everyone either. There has to be more than a few people such that if affects their bottom line.

    You are not arguing in good faith, and only want to be right in this instance.

    I could say the same about you.

    I'm sure you've never bought a display

    I've bought lots of things with HDMI that also have Display Ports.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Quit posting ancap propaganda.

    The way this sort of thing would actually improve is by government regulation.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago*

    Quit posting corporate propaganda. The government can regulate all they want. Businesses are malicious and just exploit loopholes everywhere and pay off the politicians. Taking away their motivation is not something they can get around.

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  • [–] -3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    "Vote with your wallet" is not ancap propaganda. "Abolish all money" is.

    Edit: read it wrong. In my defence cap and com do sound pretty similar. And I think when I read this comment I forgot they existed which is what those oxymorons deserve.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    You're saying "'Abolish all money" is anarcho-capitalist propaganda?" LOL, that's significantly stupider than anything I ever expected to read. Congratulations. 🤡

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    This explains so much why actual voting numbers are so poor in the US...

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  • [–] -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    ...wat

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Now if you could just convince the rest of the country to not have a TV in every room of their houses.

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