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[–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

It’s interesting that Steam still uses 32-bit. Why? Backward compatibility?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Games, native linux games and even 32 bit windows games

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    So we can translate Windows API calls to Linux but we can’t do the same from 32 to 64 🤔

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Since Wine 9.0, you can run 32-bit windows apps on 64-bits directly, without the need for 32bits distro support. It's called WoW64. You can read about it in here: https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/releases/wine-9.0#wow64.

    It's not yet enabled by default and existing 32-bit prefixes needs to be recreated Arch is migrating to it

    Native Linux games on Steam run on top of steam-runtime, a collection of libs (32 and 64 bits) running in a container called pressure-vessel. In theory they don't need 32 bits distro support.

    Steam Linux client itself is 32-bits. Unfortunately

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Thanks for the info. Things looking promising.

    As I understand Steam wants to be compatible with mainstream. Since they has released a native client for Mac Silicon, I think we may also see a 64-bit native Steam client. At least I hope so :)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    I feel like there might be a ton of weird edge cases where people still need 32 bit libraries. Steam is just scratching the surface here. The first steps should always be a series of public announcements and discussions followed by a testing period where the packages get moved to a repo which is disabled by default.

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  • 35 comments in c/linux_gaming@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 24 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Maybe Steam could just bundle the needed 32 bit libs for Fedora until they can get a 64 bit only version ready.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Does the Steam Flatpak already do that or would it need to be changed to do that?

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    Doesn't Steam run basically everything, including the client itself, inside the Steam Container Runtime now? No Steam games, native or not, use the system libraries anymore. I know I occasionally need to wait a couple of seconds after an update for it to update the Steam Container Runtime before even starting the client, which makes me think that they run the client in the container as well. I think the only real 32-bit dependency it has on the system is the user space graphics driver.

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  • This would be a stunning own goal by Red Hat (and let's face it, they are the largest driving force behind Fedora, if not in complete and total control of the project). Steam and gaming have brought so many new users to Linux - maybe even doubled the entire userbase - that if anything, they should be doing all they can to support it even better if they really want to increase the size of the userbase.

    Even if flatpak is still an option, it will still drive a lot of new and existing users to use non Fedora-based distros, which would be sad for the project. I myself have never been a Fedora user, but I'm really grateful to see a lot of the positive things they do for the Linux community, so this would be a very sad step in my opinion. On the other hand, it would make me even happier if we see more users switching to Debian-based distros instead.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Damnit I just installed Fedora and it’s the best experience I’ve had lately. Works better than Bazzite and Cachy. Sigh.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I am curious to know how it “works better”?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Bazzite for example runs poorly on my hardware. Video playback in browsers is super laggy/choppy/stuttery. I use the same browser in Fedora proper and it’s smooth.

    As for Cachy, I know it’s meant for gaming but my games ran significantly worse than in both Bazzite and Fedora proper.

    For my hardware setup, Fedora proper is the best balance between usability and gaming performance.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Thanks for sharing! I honestly thought Bazzite was fedora with a few more packages on the top, but your issue sounds interesting

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Bazzite is actually not even Fedora directly but instead it’s part of the UBlue distribution that uses Fedora immutable as its base.

    I guess think how Linux Mint uses Ubuntu base but Ubuntu uses Debian as its base.

    It is a variant of a variant basically. Also immutable distributions work differently than normal ones due to their nature. The system files never get modified and everything is installed in sort of containers. That’s overly simplifying it.

    Anyway, end of the day I’m still using Bazzite on my handheld Legion Go but on my desktop it doesn’t fly and instead I’m using Fedora proper.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    Gamers will be fine, it's bad news for Fedora.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I've been running Steam as a Flatpak for a long time, it works just fine regardless of the underlying distro. Don't panic.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Has flatpak/snap fixed the screen lease issue for vr yet? Had to install the version off steam for vr when I set it up

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    As a VR user, some of my games work as well as the flat games do (my god did proton do a damn good job on the flat games to the point I keep forgetting what distro I am using until I look at the "start/task bar") but some VR games refuse to load, others the visuals are extremely weird or darker than on windows (sharp light lines from ray tracing I assume or maybe dlss stuff), and some don't have the 1080p crispness I am used to on the monitor/in video playback from windows. I am confident these issues will be addressed as soon as they are able, hopefully before 10 is killed in the back alley, til then it's a duel boot for me.

    Yes, I spelled it the way I did ;)

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Just went and voted against. You should too.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Doesnt the steam runtime already exist for legacy 32 bit games.
    But outside of Steam Games like Touhou 6 maybe it is a problem.
    But we also have flatpak nowadays aswell so that's a option

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Fedora wishes to push people who have x32 programs away from them. Check.

    Edit: put a x in front of 32 for the ones who don't understand what it means without the x.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If you’re gonna be pedantic at least be correct. Either x32 or at least say “32-bit”.

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  • The pedantic ones are the ones obsessed with correcting small errors. I only did it because someone tried to be snarky. Emphasis on tried. I for the most part overlook small errors unless they are funny. Which are the best kind of small errors.

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  • 21 comments in c/games@sh.itjust.works view that post
    [–] 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

    Steam just needs to move to x64 and work on some way to port/emulate 32-bit for older games.

    Honestly this is on Valve imho, moreso than Redhat or Ubuntu or any distro providers.

    32-bit is dead and it's somewhat absurd that Steam is still 32-bit.


    I just checked, and while I usually shit on Epic game launcher, theirs is 64-bit by default, they don't even offer a 32-bit version of the store. This is squarely on Valve.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Bit of a weird comparison between EGL and Steam... Epic Games Launcher has been around for a fraction of the time Steam has.

    Steam hosts thousands of legacy titles and it's great that most of them are still playable. Epic hosts only newer games.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The Steam client is just a launcher. Why is it Valve's job to make sure that legacy 32-bit games continue to run? They're not the vendor of the game, and they're not the vendor of the OS. They're just a middleman. If the game vendor doesn't want to patch it to 64-bit, and the OS vendor doesn't want to maintain 32-bit compatibility, then there's simply no more support for that combination of OS and game. Valve isn't required to step in there.

    It may surprise you to learn that Valve already switched the client to 64-bit... for Mac. OSX hasn't had 32-bit support since 2019, but it still has a Steam client! Valve didn't do anything for 32-bit-only Mac titles, except drop the "Mac OS compatible" tag once Apple had dropped 32-bit support. That's all they're ever going to do for 32-bit-only PC titles, when/if OS vendors completely drop 32-bit support.

    32-bit is dead and it’s somewhat absurd that Steam is still 32-bit.

    Tell that to anyone who bought a legacy title on Steam and now wants to run it on modern hardware. Leaving the Steam client at 32-bit is simply a low-effort way to ensure that the OS has the 32-bit libraries that will be required by any 32-bit title the user happens to launch.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Why is it Valve’s job to make sure that legacy 32-bit games continue to run? They’re not the vendor of the game, and they’re not the vendor of the OS.

    They have a responsibility to ensure that games they sell continue to work. They ship libraries on Linux so there's a common base, and they should also do so for 32-bit games. GOG does this for older games using things like dosbox or whatever, and Steam should follow suit.

    Why would I use a launcher if it doesn't launch games?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    They have a responsibility to ensure that games they sell continue to work.

    How do you figure that? Valve sells you a game, and they publish the system requirements for that game. If a game doesn't work on your system then they'll give you a refund as long as it's within the refund window. Beyond that, they owe you nothing. For 32-bit titles, one of the technical requirements is 32-bit OS libraries. Let's say Windows 12 removes support for 32-bit software. What do you think Valve will do? I say they'll mass-update the system requirements of 32-bit titles to indicate that they're not compatible with Windows 12 and higher. Historical precedent is on my side here, because this is effectively what Valve did when Apple dropped 32-bit support from OSX.

    They ship libraries on Linux so there’s a common base, and they should also do so for 32-bit games. GOG does this for older games using things like dosbox or whatever, and Steam should follow suit.

    The libraries that Valve ships for Linux support are essentially Proton. They've invested a lot of effort into Proton because there's a strong business case for doing so. 95% of Valve's customers game on a Windows OS (source: Steam hardware survey), which means that Microsoft could present an existential threat to Valve if Microsoft attempts to lock down their platform. Having a functional alternative OS could dissuade Microsoft from making any anti-competitive moves. Plus, of course, without Proton there's no Steam Deck. I think making money from Steam Deck is only Valve's short term goal though, which is why they're opening up Steam OS to other handheld makers. The long-term aim is to shift gaming away from closed-source to open-source platforms so that Valve's business isn't reliant on any one OS vendor.

    There's no business case for doing the same with legacy 32-bit titles. There will be no new 32-bit titles going forward, and there's hardly any market for existing legacy 32-bit titles. Valve would need to compete with GOG, who's already doing much the same thing, and GOG is barely profitable as it stands. GOG's 2024 profits were a paltry 1.1M profit on 199M revenue (source). That's a profit margin of about 0.5%, which is not a healthy indicator in a for-profit business. 5% is generally considered low, 10% or better is a healthy margin. GOG is essentially being propped up by CD Projekt Red's Witcher/Cyberpunk money (CDPR has 468M profit on 801M revenue in 2024; a profit margin of 58%, which is wildly high-margin). Valve could prop up a money-losing 32-bit compatibility project with all their income from 64-bit software sales, but I doubt they would.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    low-effort

    People always underestimate the work that goes into making sure stuff works. These packages need to be built so they add a lot of compile time to the pipeline, these packages have limitations inherent to 32 bits so they also add troubleshooting and bugs. This is time and resources that could be spent elsewhere.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Just a proposal, might be dropped

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Honestly, fedora is pathologically open source. I admire their mission, but it's difficult to use with the pathologically closed source world of gaming and related hardware. It'll be for the best I think.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago

    This is why it’s a proposal, and why I filed it more than 6 months earlier than strictly required.

    But just to clarify - we will need to drop support for 32-bit x86 at some point. It’s dead, and more and more software just doesn’t support being built and / or run in 32-bit environments at all.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Wouldn't flatpak insulate the problem? You can already get mesa through it.

    I'm sure 32bit shared object files are also free game.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Apparently there's a few problems with the flatpak version, like you can't run gamescope or start a steam big picture session.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I want everyone ITT🧵 & others to experiment setting your devices to year 2038, and report back what you need fixed.

    Let’s end obsolescence before that date.

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  • 14 comments in c/linux@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 35 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Meh: It's inevitable. It's really Valve that we should blame for dragging their feet for so long.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I wonder how much power Valve even has here. I mean, we're talking about Windows compatibility. How many Windows games can run properly in a 64-bit WINE environment?

    Dropping 32-bit support has to happen eventually, but there's bound to be collateral damage. It wasn't a painless change even on macOS, which is generally a more tightly controlled "adapt or die" platform.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    I think Wine has had WOW support for some time and it seems it will be the default at some time (arch moving to wow64).

    Edit: What is WOW64

    WoW64

    All transitions from Windows to Unix code go through the NT syscall interface. This is a major milestone that marks the completion of the multi-year re-architecturing work to convert modules to PE format and introduce a proper boundary between the Windows and Unix worlds.

    All modules that call a Unix library contain WoW64 thunks to enable calling the 64-bit Unix library from 32-bit PE code. This means that it is possible to run 32-bit Windows applications on a purely 64-bit Unix installation. This is called the new WoW64 mode, as opposed to the old WoW64 mode where 32-bit applications run inside a 32-bit Unix process.

    The new WoW64 mode is not yet enabled by default. It can be enabled by passing the --enable-archs=i386,x86_64 option to configure. This is expected to work for most applications, but there are still some limitations, in particular:

    Lack of support for 16-bit code. Reduced OpenGL performance and lack of ARB_buffer_storage extension support.

    The new WoW64 mode finally allows 32-bit applications to run on recent macOS versions that removed support for 32-bit Unix processes.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I'm curious why 16-bit support is being dropped. Too much additional codebase complexity for such a small use case, or are there technical reasons it's difficult to support in a 64-bit environment that somehow don't exist in a 32-bit one? Or is it simply not implemented yet due to a lack of dev time/interest in the feature?

    I know 16-bit programs are incredibly niche these days, but I'd be way more comfortable with enterprises running their ancient software in a secure, up-to-date WINE environment as opposed to an actual Windows 3.x one with its nonexistent security. Even in an isolated VM, that kind of setup is one misconfiguration away from disaster.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I wouldn't expect anything ready any time soon. Especially when you look at Valve's own stats where Fedora doesn't even register in the top 11 distributions used on Steam. Although, we don't know what distros make up the 7% for the Steam Flatpak - but that's not supported by Valve anyway.

    Isn't Bazzite built on Fedora Silverblue and installs the Steam Flatpak? I could take a guess.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Isn’t Bazzite built on Fedora Silverblue

    Kinda.

    installs the Steam Flatpak?

    Actually no. Bazzite installs Steam from the RPM Fusion repo.

    As for an attempt to shed light on why Fedora is absent from Steam's numbers, see this comment. Finally, perhaps this is worth looking into to see how big Fedora's gaming community is compared to the rest of its users.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Right, Steam is baked into Bazzite, not installed on top. I stand corrected.

    The first set of numbers you link match my intuitions about what's happening to the Steam data. The second seems... less reliable, given the methodology, and don't say much about Fedora gamers in particular. The overall takeaways about the size of Fedora desktop do make sense to me, though.

    To complete the cryptic "kinda" answer, because you made me look it up, their Gnome variation is built from Silverblue and they have a KDE variant built from Kinoite. Fedora Atomic either way, for our purposes here.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's just dropping them from distribution, I think it's a good idea to separate this codebase before 2038.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    The Unix epoch problem is completely unrelated to a program being 32-bit or not. The architecture affects the maximum addressable memory space, not the size of individual types. You could easily define and use a 128-bit type in a 16-bit environment, for example.

    The epoch problem is simply due to a bad design call a long time ago - one that proved foundational and incredibly difficult to change once it'd become an entrenched standard. They could have made timestamps 64-bit at the time, and probably would have if they'd known their work would survive the several decades it'd take for that decision to pay off.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    I was using Flathub's Steam years ago already to avoid installing any 32bit system packages. Works fine. This change is no problem at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    SLES, is that you under there?

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