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[–] 85 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Yep according to them every hunger related death under a communist government is communists fault but the many famines under capitalism don't count against their favorite system.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    When you ignore established agricultural science because it's too capitalist, and your crops fail, starving a significant portion of your country, yeah that's kinda the governments fault.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Sitting alone in the highest tower of your mind palace, curtains drawn, coming up with things that happened in the outside world through pure wisdom and common sense

    "What exactly am I talking about?" you say, "Well isn't it obvious?! Everybody knows!"

    "communists hate science after all!" you add after a moment's pause.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago*

    They don't care.

    Also they will claim that the death of communism is some widely agreed upon number that is corroborated by numerous organizations and sources.

    In reality it is literally like the one single 'study' that proved the autism/vaccine connection. It came entirely from the Black Book of Communism in 1999, and all but the main author disavowed it, and despite the obsession with wanting to reach 100 million. The absolute max it could find was 94 million with a 'most likely' number of 64 million.

    So when they give a death toll of 'conservatively 100 million' they are literally pulling it out of nowhere.

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  • Wait... are the liberals actually surprised? Or being sarcastic? And why would liberals be either one of those?

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Liberals crying about the death toll from communism, when said made up number includes Nazis killed in the Easter theatre.

    Liberals mourning nazis out of sheer ignorance seems telling

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    What communist country would you like to live in?

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  • [+] 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [+] -16 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    China, Cuba, Vietnam. The first two have a higher life expectancy than the US, the richest country in world history.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    China is not moving away from communism. I don't know what you're referring to with tesla, but tesla has almost no sales in the PRC, and is considered a laughing stock. They stopped presenting at electric car shows in the PRC years ago because they're too far behind.

    Is China State Capitalist?

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    [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Anyone know where this image is from? I keep trying to find it but have never been able to.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The difference is that for the people dying under capitalism, the system is working as intended, and for the people dying under communism, it is not. In both cases, the leaders don't really care, because it works for them.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    When you lift out millions out of poverty and increase life expectancy significantly it's the communist leaders not caring. The more you know

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    People* who talk about the death toll of communism when you bring up 10-20 million dying to poverty caused by capitalism every year.

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  • [+] 20 points 1 year ago (18 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Monarchists, far right people etc. would probably react the same. Maybe discounting people on the right who are anti-capitalist but I'm not sure how large of a group that is

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  • [+] 10 points 1 year ago (16 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    I just meant that "liberal" doesn't cover all the people who would hold the sentiment pictured in the meme. A lot of ardent anti-communists are also against liberalism and can't be really described as liberal imo.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago (15 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    There's all kinds of authoritarian ideologies that are incompatible with liberalism. Not unfortunately that uncommon, especially nowadays that that shit has had a resurgence

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  • [+] 7 points 1 year ago (14 children)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (13 children)

    Well that's certainly a take. But I'm not talking about just monarchists, lots of other groups than monarchists that don't subscribe to ideas of liberalism. It's just not capitalism = liberalism.

    And the point was just that this is directed at liberals for some reason when it could be directed at all the groups that do the same thing. That's all.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (13 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Most authoritarian conservative right-wing movements gaining popularity right now are far away from the values that make up liberalism. There's no shortage of those. In Europe they're likely going to sweep most of the continent, if the recent polls hold true.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago (12 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    I think you're using a much wider definition for liberalism than is common or at least what I'm familiar with. And it's a big tent to begin with. Many of those movements are against most of what are typically considered core values of liberalism, so that's why they're often not included, as a subsection or otherwise.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (11 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    I'm using basically what's

    here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_parties_by_country

    And the subsets too get a wider view

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism#Parties_and_organisations

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Classical_liberal_parties_worldwide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_liberalism

    Etc.

    Their definitions don't include the parties I was thinking about, that are doing the "alt-right" wave right now for example. So for that reason I think we're working from different definitions.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Idk the Wikipedia definition that I commonly see people use doesn't seem to agree with that. If you throw in fascism, alt-right, all of that under liberalism then the meme of course covers more ground but it can get more confusing to those not using the same definition of liberalism as you seem to use.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    Wikipedia itself (and fwiw commonly others don't either in my experience) doesn't the talked about movements and parties as fitting under that umbrella, since they're conflicting with too much of the basic defining principles. Imo that makes sense, but if you were to use a broader definition or going "if it fits even one part then it counts", then I guess I could see them fitting under it.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    It just doesn't seem like the sort of Wikipedia definition and the common interpretation I usually encounter agree with you on this one since the mentioned movements aren't counted. But of course it's not one interpretation to rule them all, just using Wikipedia as representative of the common viewpoint.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    In that it doesn't count those movements as part of liberalism or those parties under that umbrella. It's the reason I posted those lists above.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Sure and it could be a salient point if it left out a few. It does tell you something when none of the parties in those movements are included though. Even in the articles for those particular ideologies you don't see the claim that they're subsets of liberalism, but a few mentions how they're trying to counter liberal values.

    I don't think it's an accidental omission.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I mean I'm not sure if Wikipedia actually counts MAGA part of the party as liberals. I don't think it does. That's more along the lines of movements I was talking about. European alt-right the same deal.

    But if you're working from a specifically Marxist viewpoint I'm guessing it uses a broader definition that includes those movements.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I'm not sure it counts at Wikipedia, with how they describe it (they call it "Trumpism")

    comprises ideologies such as right-wing populism, right-wing antiglobalism, national conservatism and neo-nationalism, and features significant illiberal, authoritarian[7][8] and at times autocratic beliefs.[b] Trumpists and Trumpians are terms that refer to individuals exhibiting its characteristics. There is significant academic debate over the prevalence of neo-fascist[a] elements of Trumpism.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I mean the whole point of bringing up Wikipedia was to show a common definition and what sort of movements are counted. If you use wider Marxist definition it covers a lot more, from what I've understood. The common Wikipedia counting doesn't cover as much, so it leaves out some pretty popular movements, in which case the meme just mentioning liberals doesn't make as much sense. But this being on .ml I think using the Marxist definition makes sense

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think you and Wikipedia disagree here. But that's neither here nor there really. By their counting, there's plenty of non-liberals who would fit the meme. In your view there aren't. So that explains the difference.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago

    And a Republican thing. Did you forget about the even larger group of people who believe in capitalism even more? I agree that the hand-winging "oh, maybe we'll vote in a better president in a few years, let's wait things out" crowd is a pain, but the sentiment that "capitalism is the best we've got" is championed primarily by people even further to the right than them.

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    [–] 1 point 1 year ago (14 children)

    Both are true, this is a dumb argument and common bad faith fallacy.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (13 children)
  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Because it intentionally neglects the harm caused by the Great Leap Forward, or various soviet famines. The statement is designed to deflect attention and responsibility from A to B and use hyperbole to create outrage.

    Its possible to argue that both China and the Soviet Union were not actually communism but rather authoritarianism but for the sake of common understanding we will refer to them as they refer(ed) to themselves.

    So did millions of people die because of "communism?" the facts say yes. So do millions of people die because of Capitalism? the facts say yes.

    Both are true statements, and using hyperbole and outrage to deflect or minimize one or the other is in bad faith.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    This is pure projection. The meme doesn't 'neglect' anything.

    The statement is designed to deflect attention and responsibility from A to B and use hyperbole to create outrage.

    Your objection is essentially that you want to label something as 'bad' but not allow the necessary discussion of 'relative to what?'

    Your system deliberately murders an order of magnitude more people but we're not allowed to talk about it because you say so and we all give a huge shit what you have to say because you're so well read on the subject lol

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    We are talking about it, and its not my system its the one I am trapped in, and I still would not want to live in either Russia or China.

    I also dont want to live in the US, I want the Star Trek future now, all people have value.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    there is no amount of propaganda that would make this believable. The fact that there is forced labor, and decent is punished is just as unacceptable in China as it is in the US. When I can freely and safely criticize Xi Jinping I might be interested. There are lots of aspects of China that I love and want to see but the authoritarian government and regional provincial governors are NOT something i want to risk.

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  • [+] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I have a hard time giving weight to a self reported survey like the one you linked. I dont doubt that people in china feel like they are free, and I suspect that many also ranked their freedom highly because they fear reprisal if they say otherwise.

    Many aspects of China are democratic, other parts are not, Xi Jinping is a life time dictator and cannot be replaced by democratic systems. He is an authoritarian and Bourgeoisie, your suggestion that the working class oppresses capitalists is demonstrably false https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides for example. These were western capitalists treating workers with raw brutality. The CCP was complicit and did not protect their workers because it was seen as generally beneficial to have these manufacturing contracts.

    You don't know me, you are making assumptions about my knowledge, experience, and connection to China based on a few responses on lemmy.

    I hope China is able to return to the ideals that were espoused through the revolution, and I will cheer if they truly reach a level of equality not yet seen in humanity.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago* (3 children)
  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    We can disagree on Xi being an authoritarian/dictator, from my perspective and experience he is effectively a dictator.

    I was actually happy with some of the improvements made as a result of these suicides but more still needs to be done, and the Uyghurs people are still suffering under the regime.

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  • [+] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping

    It is a perception that is so common that its on Wikipedia. Its not just vibes, its researchers, journalists, academics, and other organizations that have a similar perspective.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago

    your hard numbers and studies were based on self reported surveys.

    World wide consensus, it could be wrong but I have not seen any evidence that its not. I wont deny that any western source is at risk of bias, that is part of the problem with freedom, people with too much power can buy the stories they want.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    kinda don't give a shit what you have to say in response to my criticism when you aren't going to respond to the criticism at all

    you can claim to love all good things and hate all bad things

    literally zero bearing on what you said or what I said in response

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I think that's because we have a difference of perspective on degrees of bad. I think all deaths caused by capitalism are bad, and equal bad to all the deaths that are the result of authoritarian countries calling themselves communist.

    So i fundamentally disagree with the "relative to what" because a life is worth the same regardless of where they live and who they are.

    We are able to, and I am talking about the harm, and I am pointing out that this meme is designed to create an emotional response to the 2nd point and not to both points. Thats all, its manipulative and propagandist which makes it in bad faith, and you are welcome to defend either position, I will just disagree.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    I think all deaths caused by capitalism are bad, and equal bad to all the deaths that are the result of authoritarian countries calling themselves communist.

    You want to obscure the larger number because you want the smaller number to look bad. We're not allowed to talk about the larger number. We're not allowed to criticize your side.

    So what you just said is a fucking lie, isn't it? If they were equal you would permit both be examined. You would admit that the one with the larger death count is worse. That's the exact opposite of what you're pushing for. Your agenda is at odds with reality.

    You don't actually care about people dying. Your actions betray your rhetoric.

    So i fundamentally disagree with the “relative to what” because a life is worth the same regardless of where they live and who they are.

    And there you go doubling down. Hollow rhetoric sidestepping the actual objection. Cynical. Deliberate.

    I will just disagree.

    And I think we can all put together why you disagree (you're a nazi).

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You want to obscure the larger number because you want the smaller number to look bad. We’re not allowed to talk about the larger number. We’re not allowed to criticize your side.

    Not my side, and no I dont want to diminish the larger number, same as I dont want to diminish the smaller number. People should not have to die for political or economic system to function.

    I am examining both, and I am pointing out that the image posted does not examine both, it deliberately attempts to shape the discussion around ignoring self proclaimed communist deaths.

    You don’t actually care about people dying. Your actions betray your rhetoric.

    What? I am sorry what actions am i taking that betray my values?

    And I think we can all put together why you disagree (you’re a nazi).

    I dont know how you came to the conclusion that I am a Nazi, but I can assure you I am not. I dont want to kill or marginalize any group, and I have actually been working for years to cast off my inherited privilege or use it for reparations.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Not my side

    Only in so far as you mouth the words that you don't support them while rhetorically supporting them.

    and no I dont want to diminish the larger number

    Yet you are. Belligerently so at this point.

    People should not have to die for political or economic system to function.

    Mind palace baby brain. Once again flattening all context and history to equate a system that literally functions by killing people and one that you wish to paint as equal because mortality continued to exist under it.

    If you were doing that out of ignorance one would hope you would have the humility to not dig your heels in so I assume you're doing it deliberately to advocate your side. Because you're a nazi.

    What? I am sorry what actions am i taking that betray my values?

    You're not betraying your values; you're lying about what your values are.

    I can assure you I am not. I dont want to kill or marginalize any group

    And I bet you could convince sleepwalkers who aren't paying close attention that you actually mean this shit. But you do indeed want people to die, and you want them to die by the tens of millions each year. That's the functional position you're taking by defending those deaths. And you can't pretend you're not defending them by hiding them behind a curtain while you demonize the alternative that costs fewer lives.

    You're a nazi because you want to use violence to defend capitalism. That's pretty much the textbook definition of fascism.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Lol as if we can't hate both.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    why? And why count hunger deaths under communism as marks against but don't apply this to capitalism much more deaths?

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  • [+] -18 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    A lot of assumptions being made off of my shitty one line joke, starting to feel like you have an agenda you're trying to push and are attempting to start a fight you've already had in your head.

    I maybe a dumbass, but I'm not idiot.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Lol as if we can’t hate both.

    please explain what a joke is and how this can be understood as one

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  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Nah I'm all good, I'll leave the interpretation up to y'all.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I wasn't expecting you to. I'm saying you're full of shit.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh no, a random stranger on the internet is angry with me, what ever will I do...

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