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Brb, re-painting the lines on the stroad near my house to add a bike lane.
Well, after I rent a pavement grinder to fix the damn sidewalks.
Install a speed bump for additional safety https://www.clevescene.com/news/urbanist-guerillas-fed-up-neighbors-install-speed-bump-on-street-where-five-year-old-was-struck-and-killed-38879832
You can do all those things and also vote. So vote. Sure, votes won't make the system better, but you can make it harder for the fascists to get away with shit while you organize. Vote.
Voting is fine as long as you are aware that it does nothing to materially prevent fascism. It can't hurt anything to write something on a piece of paper. But the problem isnt really people like you. Its liberals who believe that voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Electoral democracy is ultimately a misdirection. Capitalists are the actual sources of political power in western democracies. They unfortunately have a vested interest in the state getting more fascist and actually have the power to effect that change. So long as everyone looks down at the ballot box and then goes home to do nothing of material difference for the next 4 years, fascists will only continue to gain ground until they can do away with the misdirection of electoralism entirely.
Voting cannot be the only thing you do. Or you are effectively doing nothing. Which you seem to understand, but liberals do not. They actually want all other forms of political action banned. Because liberals ultimately protect capitalists, who are the real sources of political power. Leftist political action is a threat to capitalists. Thusly, liberals condemn it and recommend voting instead.
What I'm saying is that not voting is foolish, not that voting is the only thing that should be done. In fact I'm saying that other things should be done. We clearly agree, I just think it is harmful to spread anti voting rhetoric because while it can't fix things it is still a meaningful thing that can be done with immediate consequences for many.
We do agree. I only said anything in the first place because I didn't really see this post as advocating an anti-voting position. I would see anti-voting agitation as more along the lines of "Do not vote. Voting itself is harmful." As opposed to "voting doesn't work" or "voting is ineffective" which I see as more along the lines of criticism of electoral democracy and agitation for collective action.
He did in an earlier post posted shortly before this one, and the title seems to reinforce this. The image itself doesn't.
One post implied voting blue was voting for fascism, implying you shouldn't for the dems in the US. My point is that this is shortsighted and harmful. People should vote for the dems unless a third party is a viable alternative, they should also build up third parties to make them viable options, and they should also join political orgs and unionize, and do direct action.
Ofc more than voting is needed, but the republicans are causing more harm than the dems would have by miles and contributing to more voter apathy is not the answer.
Voting is fine as long as you are aware that it does nothing to materially prevent fascism.
There is no such thing as preventing fascism. It's a fight every generation has to win, no matter what government they live under. It's always about delay so we can fight it again tomorrow.
Its liberals who believe that voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
I'll take a liberal who believes voting is the be all end all of their political responsibility over a "leftist" who believes not voting, and encouraging others not to vote, is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
Electoral democracy is ultimately a misdirection. Capitalists are the actual sources of political power in western democracies.
Yes, but a large source of that power is influencing electoral democracy. It does work, but all it does is reflect the choice of the people¹. It's just that the people have been manipulated into counterproductive choices for so long. A defeatist approach to voting is one of those choices.
No, voting can't be the only thing you do. But it should be one of the things you do, and you should do it intelligently. Yes, we all want a more representative electoral mechanic, but until we get it we need to accept the properties of the field we're playing on and act accordingly.
¹ Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and all the other ways of skewing democracy away from the actual will of the people only proves the point further. They wouldn't be bothering with all that if elections didn't have power.
all it does is reflect the choice of the people
And when the choices are all false ones?
"leftist" who believes not voting, and encouraging others not to vote, is the be all end all of their political responsibility.
That's a strawman if I've ever seen one. Nobody saying that "electoralism is a sham" is saying that's the "be all end all of their political responsibility." They just generally have a broader definition of "political responsibility".
And when the choices are all false ones?
Yeah, that was exactly my point.
Nobody saying that "electoralism is a sham" is saying that's the "be all end all of their political responsibility." They just generally have a broader definition of "political responsibility".
Yeah that hasn't been my experience. Especially in the last election cycle, I saw a lot of that supposed strawman. No community engagement, no actual political engagement, no workplace engagement, just "Kamala bad". People who insisted that not voting or voting third party would send a message. Don't pretend they don't exist, I've talked to dozens.
I stand by my statement. All else equal, a liberal who does nothing except vote Democrat is better by far than a "leftist" who does nothing except tell people not to vote Democrat.
Yeah, that was exactly my point.
I don't see it and that's why I asked. Could you clarify?
People who insisted that not voting or voting third party would send a message.
Ah, I misunderstood your classifications. I would definitely lump those people in with the "liberals who do nothing except vote" crowd, not the "electoralism is a scam" leftists.
Could you clarify?
The claim was that electoral democracy was a misdirection, my point is that all the effort to manipulate it demonstrates that it is the seat of power, and the oligarchs have merely occupied it.
I would definitely lump those people in with the "liberals who do nothing except vote" crowd
Since they're defined by not voting, they aren't. They are, materially speaking, equivalent to anti-electoralists. The liberals are at least voting for plausible harm reduction.
my point is that all the effort to manipulate it demonstrates that it is the seat of power
That's not at all what I mean about it being a false choice.
That's one hell of a hasty generalization. Putting effort into something doesn't make it materially valuable or useful. Lawns aren't a useful cash crop, valuable export or critical infrastructure despite the ludicrous amount of resources spent on maintaining them.
Since they're defined by not voting, they aren't.
Within the framework of a representative democracy not voting when you don't have representation is the same as voting for someone who isn't representative of your interests.
Within the framework of a representative democracy not voting when you don't have representation is the same as voting for someone who isn't representative of your interests.
Within the framework of FPTP elections they are different. Voting against the person who is least representative, no matter how marginally, is better than not voting.
So are we at the part where things need to be on-fire?
I do adore the flames, they speak to me.
"We can't just vote "
It says what you said already.
Have you seen crypts other posts and comments? He is not in favor of voting. Also see the title
That may be true but this art has been posted before when 50501 was taking off. The original artist probably had more emphasis on the just, as in you have to do more than simply voting. This is probably what the other commentor was trying to convey.
This. That was a message directly to OP. One he will fail to hear.
Voting is for them to let us have one of the two kinds of mercy they're willing to take. I'll vote if I'm feeling kind that day
I was saying this years ago but at this point: no. Fuck that system, I will not legitimize it, or the assholes blaming me for their own electoral failures. Fuck you¹, no, never again. Not in this system.
¹and you're probably great! But still!
Fuck that system, I will not legitimize it, or the assholes blaming me for their own electoral failures. Fuck you¹, no, never again. Not in this system.
I get why you feel that way, but the reality is that if you abstain then there is no reason to even consider your opinion or desires. If your just going to say no because you're not getting everything then you'll just be excluded and everyone else will get something. Case in point the let's relevance today. They don't really support any part, nor do they work to make their own; as such you can ignore them. Protests? War? People that don't want to build a third party are unlikely to fight. Do you know who FARC is? They are a political party now. But they also were before.
no reason to consider your opinion or desires
Nobody in power has ever done this. You're showing so much privilege it has an event horizon.
you'll be excluded
So like always?
everyone else will get something
Oh like the federally free weed single payer healthcare and not funding the Zionists that upwards of 60% of Americans want? Get out of your god damn fantasy world.
there is no left and they don't do anything
Case in point
you'll be excluded
So like always?
Exactly, you've abstained and you won't organize a third party. You've done everything to not be taken seriously. The left broadly doesn't want to, so it will keep being irrelevant
I didn't abstain. Most people I knew on the left didnt used to either. Fuck you. I'm more than a lefty; I fit into lots of demographics, and not one of them has ever won jack shit by voting.
Everything you're saying is from a dog shit Arron Sorkin fantasy. I find it deeply offensive for reasons you can't and do not want to understand.
Fuck you and fuck your nation-state. You are why we have fascism. This is your doing and you can't even understand why.
Elections are one front in the class war. Leftist keep ignoring it and wonder why they get nothing.
When the enemy has complete control over the weapons and battlefield which overwhelmingly favors them; why would you pick that fight?
This take right here is why people turn against leftist politics… homie is telling you to participate in democracy as well as other forms of organization and resistance, and you’re all “fuck that I’m not gonna do nothin”
Like this is a dumb hill to die on, and you’re polarizing people that could be your allies
there is not voting, and there is having your vote be conditional. i may not vote democrat if a progressive candidate is not available, but third party is always an option instead.
I do participate in democracy–I just don't vote and endorse the state anymore. Dems have poisoned that.
Saying "fuck no" to having your time, energy and resources wasted is the only way to not get wrung dry.
Or would you be convinced by me telling you to participate right now in violent revolution as well as other forms of organization and resistance? Knowing that when you say no I will interpret that as you saying “fuck that I’m not gonna do nothin”.
I feel bad for a lot of people who don't want violence.
I don't want it either, but they're backing us into a corner. There have been many, many attempts at settling this peacefully, and it just hasn't happened yet.
As Churchill said, you can't reason with a lion while your head is in its mouth.
Quoting Churchill in this post lmao
I mean it's a quote of a fact.
You can't reason with anyone while under attack, but also the brain just don't work as well in conflict/survival mode. This is a strategy they've been planning for decades, and started putting into action years in advance.
They are backing us into a corner bc they are trying to instigate violence to proceed with the next part of their plan.
It might be inevitable, but if you're looking at violence/conflict as a resolution while knowing it's part of their plan, you need your own plan and strategy in place to know where you go from there.
What happens once a civil war is kicked off? Their plan is to declare an emergency/martial law and use the military, federal, and state law enforcement and all their weapons and resources against their own civilians in order to crush dissent. Once that happens they already have their new government in place ready to take over on day one, bc a coup was the plan all along.
We need a strategy in place to defend. Force without any strategy or planning behind it is still just reasoning with the lion while your head is in its mouth.
I'm not disagreeing with the quote or anything, I'm a revolutionary communist who participated in civil disobedience in pro-palestine demonstrations (I'll be there in Madrid this very evening to push for a general strike against genocide). I just find it ironic to quote Churchill of all.
We don't just need a strategy, we also need leaders.
It's difficult though. Like you said, they've been planning this for a long time. They control so much that resistance is hard to put together and organize.
That said, at the end of the day if it comes to it I would much rather flail about and resist than give in without a fight.
I knew there was a reason I never got permanently identifiable tattoos like everyone else in my age group and kept my hair and beard long so I can change my appearance with a pair of scissors and a razor in just a few minutes.
said everyone sane, but not knowing how
I've read the declassified sabotage guides but people still have things to lose before they have nothing to lose.
Reminder that "you can't make the system better by voting" applies even when you win the actual votes. Chile found out when democratically-elected socialist leader Salvador Allende was murdered in cold blood by a fascist CIA-backed coup and replaced by a fascist dictator, and Spain (my homeland) found out when we democratically elected a leftist coalition during the Spanish Second Republic, only to have a failed coup which turned into a civil war in which Fascists backed by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy fought against the legitimate democratically elected government (supported only by the USSR while the USA, England and France looked the other way during Nazi bombings such as that of Gernika), ultimately with Fascists winning the war and creating a 40-year fascist dictatorship of which we still sadly live the consequences.
Like. Why do people trust judges in America? I grew up where our local judges were financed by the mob with bullshit like owning the juvenile detention centers. Where kids were sent to keep it profitable for the owners. Who some were the very judges throwing kids away for nothing.
Judges are not going to save us. At this point replace them with Ai judges. I’m sure they’ll do a better job.
Their hrududus are scary. We must be scarier!
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