cross-posted from: https://lemmy.org/post/1872634

So, starting now, Google started mandating full JS for YT, effectively breaking all third-party clients and locking the site to their official client.

This reeks of DRM.

UPDATE: Installing Deno and installing yt-dlp through PyPi fixes yt-dlp but the very idea that Google is mandating JS to lock down YT in an attempt at pseudo-DRM is still crappy.

UPDATE #2: inv.nadeko.net is working again for now.

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[–] 223 points 1 year ago (45 children)

youtube has a monopoly on video content, they can (and will) do what they want

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  • [–] [S] 70 points 1 year ago (43 children)

    Otoh, you also have Odysee and PeerTube to move your own content to.

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  • [–] 48 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    The fediverse is kind of like a dandelion growing out of the cracks in a concrete slab.

    Hopefully the seeds take.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    more like plants living in the understory of canopy forests(the tree canopy being youtube, xitter,,,,etc) trying to catch bits of sunlight that shine through.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Yup, the fediverse has a lot of things still to solve and figure out before it goes anywhere. I have little faith that present moderation would scale well if there was a massive growth in the userbase. And then there’s the other issue. There’s a discussion on the peertube github for two years now on how to keep instances from dying.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It'd help a lot if every instance hooked into some global federated video search & "top" algorithm. Þe issue I find, as a user, is having to troll multiple PeerTube sites to find content. I don't really see þe "federated" part of it. Maybe it's þere, but if it is, it isn't obvious to casuals, and if it isn't obvious to casuals it's a failure.

    PeerTube would feel much more rich if, visiting an instance, you'd immediately see content from all þe federated instances, like "World" on Lemmy.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The way you write the is so annoying to humans and does nothing against ai.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    you missed a thorn in algorithm.

    where is my prize?? :D

    I don't really see þe "federated" part of it. Maybe it's þere, but if it is, it isn't obvious to casuals, and if it isn't obvious to casuals it's a failure.

    I think it's because that contrary to the lemmyverse, peertube does not auto-accept federating servers. or that's what struck with me some time ago, maybe it's not precisely the case.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Makes sense, and I guess it's understandable as video's riskier content. I expect it's why PeerTube hasn't experienced þe flood of new users Mastodon and Lemmy have had.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (19 children)

    And Nebula if you want to see how it works when viewers pay for the videos.

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

    Couldn't posting your normal content to PeerTube or whatever, and then selling premium content on Nebula to fund the would-be free PeerTube portion, be a potentially viable model vs. gaming the AdSense system on YT and hoping for the best?

    Like, if you cover the same niche as Not Just Bikes, for example, but replace YT with PeerTube, that could maybe work provided you have a big enough following.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Why not both? As far as I can tell, only Nebula originals are restricted to just one platform. Everything else is in two places. I think you could totally play the same game with a PT+Nebula combo.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Mainly because PT's a better fit to Nebula being creator-centric, vs. YT where it's what Google says goes and you have basically no say over your content.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Yeah that’s a better pair as far as censorship is concerned. On YT, you need to dance around sensitive topics as if you’re talking to a child.

    However, as there are more viewers on the bigger platform, abandoning that place doesn’t happen so easily. It’s basically like Facebook all over again. Isn’t there a term for this type of inertia…

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    Honestly, you shouldn’t talk to children using words like sewer slide, ledollarbean, or unalive. I fucking hate this algospeech. It drives me to violence.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Wait, sewer slide to describe the offing of one's self, really?! Google's that easily offended to where they'll censor vids talking about someone offing themselves if they just straight-up say the act instead of calling it something that sounds like the name of a Double Dare obstacle?!!

    I guess Google doesn't know that using immature-sounding code words to talk about something like that is more likely to offend potential victims in the audience than just allowing the person talking about this stuff to be straight with the audience and just present the subject matter as-is.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    We haven’t been able to talk frankly on YouTube for well over a decade at this point. It’s just crept from specific niches to just general bullshit.

    If I talk about the time I got raped, I’d sooner choke Sundar Pichai than refer to it as the time I got “graped” or even “SA’d.” I recall Stephanie Sterling talking about it in their last video, about how we now live in a reality where you cannot make a video essay on the holocaust using the fucking word holocaust!

    The infantilisation of the English language to appease algorithms and corporate interests infuriates me. I can agree to watch my tone and moderate my language as to not hurt people around me, but fuck if I’m going to do so just to help fill come cuntbag’s bloated fucking coin purse.

    —

    As an aside; I don’t think sewer slide is common, and rather “unalive oneself” tends to be the more common phrase, but I heard it once.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Adam Buckley has been seemingly antagonizing YT by poking fun at this sorta thing too, and you still shouldn't have to describe someone offing themselves with a code phrase that legitimately sounds like something that Nick would've picked as the name for an obstacle in Double Dare, that's disrespectful as hell to any victims of someone who took that route in the audience.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah it’s getting completely ridiculous. Also, video essays about movies have to dodge copyright scans by resorting to super aggressive editing and visual trickery that basically just ruins the whole video. On PT, they could make much nicer videos.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago

    Even music commentary videos that were previously fine started getting dinged and having certain parts muted as a result, even if they're in Fair Use otherwise because Fair Use is dead and buried on YT and has been for years.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    That's one thing PhantomStrider constantly makes a point of when reviewing XYZ kid's flick or show; content aimed at kids, and in general, shouldn't talk down to them like they're stupid like, say, Dora does.

    Language like 'unalive' when referring to killing, for example, even in a totally legitimate manner taking on some inherently dark subject matter like with any True Crime stuff, could be construed as talking down, vs. just presenting the content straight-up and being as accurate to the subject matter and as respectful to the audience which might very much include the families of the victims of whatever crimes are being covered, as humanly possible.

    Like imagine pulling up a video essay on someone like Jeffrey Dahmer and having it be littered with language like 'unalive' and 'grape' when dealing with very, very serious subject matter like that, if I happened to be a family member of one of that guy's victims, I'd feel very talked down to and be insulted as hell, plus it's just not good optics to use language like 'unalive' when the subject matter you're dealing with is very dark and serious subject matter.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Nebula never works well for me. The seeking and tracking causes endless buffering, and sometimes not even a hard refresh fixes this. Their site is just so buggy but when it works, at least it works decently well.

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  • [–] 160 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Those are fantastic solutions if you don't want anybody to watch your content.

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  • [–] [S] 34 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    At least you own your content on those platforms, PeerTube especially if self-hosted, and not Google. If you self-host a PeerTube instance using local hardware, for example, no one can take it down on a whim but you.

    With YT, Google can and will nuke your channel for any reason they see fit.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You got a source to google owning your content if you upload to YouTube?

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago

    I'm assuming they mean de facto, not de jure.

    In reality YT can do whatever the hell they want. You aren't going to win from their entire team of ivy leage lawyers unless you're independently wealthy yourself.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Lessee, recent censorship issues, the fact that you can get demonetized or straight-up struck down if you say something Google don't like, the fact that your channel can and will get taken down if Google don't like you....

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    How about peertube fixing the discovery issues first? The platform if full of low quality content

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    At least it's not AI slop unlike what Google is pushing really hard on YT lately.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    At lease there is ton of quality videos and channel that you can watch in you tube unlike peer tube that 99.9% of videos are terrible quality videos. The AI slop i can simply ignore. I would like to love peertube but it is trash unlike pixeled which is not perfect and have many half backed features but I can find many great creators and great photos. Pixelfed reduced by usage of instagram by 95%

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    [–] 74 points 1 year ago

    Holy shit I did not realize how complex of a project yt-dlp has to be to do something as simple as download a video... Kudos to the devs

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  • [–] 136 points 1 year ago

    Just ran am update for ytdlp and it's working again.

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  • [–] 96 points 1 year ago (56 children)

    Someone give it to me straight, what is the endgame of this cat and mouse game? I know yt-dlp and invidious have been quite crafty at adapting to these changes, but the scales seem to be tipping.

    It feels like Google will dominate the game into submission the same way it did with AOSP and Chrome. I know I'm being dramatic but it's really starting to feel like we're being cornered into a hopeless situation

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  • [–] 113 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Well the problem for google is that Youtube MUST be accessible to almost any internet user in the world - that's a key reason why it's so ubiquitous.

    The reason this cat and mouse game has lasted as long as it has in the first place is because any method that is currently being quashed has a solution lying in another user agent that youtube can't kill.

    If one day YT sets a "minimum requirements" page on their website to access their content, they've immediately ceded market share to the next upstart. Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, "smart TVs", and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they'll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.

    As long as YT caters to the lowest common denominator (Their business model essentially binds them to do so), there will always be a software/hardware environment that these tools can spoof. The moment that stops being the case, people look for other options.

    A similar analogy would be how Microsoft handled the windows 11 requirements - the strict requirements locking out years upon years of hardware has resulted in a substantial amount of users finding workarounds for their machines (like windows 10 IOT LTSC), or to even jump to linux entirely. They abandoned the entry level users, so entry level users are abandoning them.

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  • [–] [S] 17 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, “smart TVs”, and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they’ll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.

    Not-so-fun fact, this is exactly what ATSC 3 is trying to do for OTA broadcast TV.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    ATSC 3 ? Never heard of that, but I'm curious.

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  • [–] [S] 15 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    New broadcast standard which if implemented as intended, will use Widevine DRM to encrypt/decrypt streams, and require a web connection to view previously free OTA broadcasts, also that DRM will limit what you can do with it, as Rossmann puts it early on in his 'this is why I show these things in my vids' vid. https://peertube.gravitywell.xyz/videos/watch/61332f1b-9a15-46b6-8a97-c4e378fbce72

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    If one day YT sets a "minimum requirements" page on their website to access their content, they've immediately ceded market share to the next upstart. Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, "smart TVs", and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they'll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.

    This all incorrectly assumes that there exists any viable competition to switch to. YouTube ran at a net loss for over a decade to get the reach they currently have, only because Google was one of the very few companies who could feasibly afford to do so. Nobody else with the resources to compete with YouTube is willing to compete with YouTube, because of the massive cost required to get even a fraction of that user base, let alone a critical mass.

    And most of the content people access YouTube for is only found on YouTube, so those hypothetical users aren't going to switch to a new platform, they're going to either just flat-out stop watching or will replace their devices.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Users replacing their devices isn't feasible in many parts of the world, especially outside of the west.

    You are correct that a service similar in scale and scope would not appear out of the aether due to the cost, but to say nothing would make a grab for those underserved users would be foolish.

    Again - the entry level cost conscious users do constitute a large part of Youtube's userbase, so even if they are burdensome to support (due to ad blocking rates, required legacy features to upkeep, and so on), they are a core part of the audience that youtube serves. In an economic environment where people cannot afford to abandon their hardware, there is no chance they will opt out of receiving information and entertainment entirely because of their devices being unsupported by google's sites. They will move to the next service in the chain, either existing or new. To google's investors, that shrinkage in userbase may be untenable.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    PeerTube or LBRY (The protocol, not Odysee) might help in that. As in decentralized instances focussing on specific content. All connected via hubs/open-protocols.

    Basically Decentralized or distributed networks are key. The next hurdle is populating those platforms with content.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Not just populating with content, but also create revenue in some way. Otherwise creators won't post their content there, they have to make a living from whatever platforms they're on after all

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Unfortunately video platforms are also much harder on small hosts. More storage, more bandwidth, harder to moderate.

    I feel like the solution might be a media management company, like buffer, offering to host videos directly and over a open protocols for a small upgrade in addition to posting to YT et all.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    A similar analogy would be how Microsoft handled the windows 11 requirements - the strict requirements locking out years upon years of hardware has resulted in a substantial amount of users finding workarounds for their machines (like windows 10 IOT LTSC), or to even jump to linux entirely.

    Staying in windows 10 sure, but I've yet to see much evidence people have been switching much to Linux.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Good point, but the result is still the same - people defect away from the "modern" product instead of complying and buying a new machine.

    Anecdotally, I've recently helped friends and family (a sample size of about 4 people now) to set up either windows LTSC or Linux mint on their machines as they are uninterested in replacing their computers, so maybe linux is a minority solution (although still occurring)

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  • [+] 25 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    You got Linux phones but those are rough to be nice about it.

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  • [+] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    Not to mention, carriers can dictate who can get connected. Australia already banned any IMEIs not "approved" by them, not even for emergency calls.

    In contrast, all that a computer would need is working wifi, and for now at least, we still control wifi hardware and the ISP can't dictate what devices you connect. (unless they start forcing their "gateways" Modem/Router devices)

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Technically you don't need a smartphone. A tethered mobile device would do. For just cellular calls, there are dumbphones. That Youtube does or doesn't work doesn't concern me. They always ask to login on VPN which is always on for me. Thanks, just no.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    They turn it into an app-only platform just like with many PRC-based apps. Literally, some of those platforms doesn't even have a web or desktop mode.

    I tried using Baidu Maps web to look at my old neighborhood (I was born in mainland China) for nostalgia, and the site repeatedly automatically attempts to download the .apk like every tap I make on the site. Wtf lol. The site probably detected the useragent and keeps nagging me about their app.

    I tried browsing a random popular online store to see what it's like for curiosity (天猫), but it asked for a sign in. Like wut? Even Amazon, Ebay, Bestbuy doesn't do that. PRC is actually just late stage cyberpunk capitalism.

    This is gonna be the future for every big-corp stuff. App only, real ID and phone number verification required. Probably even scan your face.

    We need a Meshtastic-based "internet" to actually decouple from big corps have control our infrastructure to have real freedom.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Good luck blocking alt OSes on PC if Windows goes the route you're describing though, unless MS pulls some strings to force Pluton platform-wide on PC and stamp out alt OSes altogether.

    Also, good luck blocking decentralized and self-hostable platforms, at least easily.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    lol. microsoft manages the preinstalled signing keys for secure boot. all it needs to do is require motherboard makers to not allow disabling secure boot or installing a machine owner key.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Good luck trying that with loose mainboards for custom builds unless they can just preinstall Windows in ROM at that point or push to get the current desktop form factors axed in favor of mini PCs from the big OEMs.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I don't think it would be that hard. Microsoft could just change the UEFI certification process. Alternative UEFI firmware could solve it (unless that too is tied to verification like qualcomm does on android), but nearly no modern motherboards have any alternative firmware. I think there was 2 ASUS motherboards with built in wifi capability, but that's it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Can they really get away with banning Linux from hardware though? It's not like there are only 12 of us anymore.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago

    Plus unless they discontinue all the modular desktop form factors in favor of mini PCs where everything is soldered, and turn the PC platform into yet another Mac clone controlled by a single entity, you can still just build your own PC and install whatever OS you want at that point since custom builds don't generally ship with an OS and expect the builder to provide it themselves.

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  • [+] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] [S] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    The end game is to take full control. If Google implements Widevine on YT, and especially Widevine L1, that'll be their Hiroshima bomb for both third-party front-ends and downloaders, and even non-Android, ChromeOS, Apple, or Windows platforms as far as OS goes and non-Chrome or Edge browsers.

    Like, say Google implemented Widevine L1 on YT streams at some point in the future, it would be entirely feasible that you'd be looking at Netflix-style lockdowns to Edge on Win11, or even Chrome on Win11 for that matter, with both SecureBoot and TPM2 in place, if you wanted to watch YT on PC in the future, else you'd be limited to Rokus to watch it.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    That would be their poison pill. Youtube's advantage is in it's ubiquity. Lose that, you lose countless users.

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    They'd sooner replace those users with home-grown AI slop the way they're moving right now.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The perfect business case: AI users watching AI ads before AI videos. No pesky users to deal with👍

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    But also, they're not real users watching those ads and getting impressions. Unless people are using an agent system that could be convinced to buy the product, it doesn't seem like it would be that useful.

    You may as well serve ads to standard viewbot at that point.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Your new monitor likely has DRM features built in that are already being utilized by Netflix and others. Youtube is next on the line

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    DRM is expensive. Very expensive in fact because it is basically non-trivial encryption.

    A website with as much traffic as YouTube cannot afford to DRM every single video stream. There just isn't enough processing power and electricity available.

    Netflix et al. have a tiny fraction of YouTube's traffic with more income per user due to subscriptions.

    Plus YouTube's storage demands are many orders of magnitude larger. A maximum upper bound for Netflix is 1 PB I'd imagine. Archiveteam alone has selectively downloaded more than 3 PB. YouTube has, I'd imagine, a double digit exabyte amount of data stored + backups.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And yet, youtube uses resource intensive compression methods for said exabytes

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  • Do we know this?

    I suspect they usually compress videos at most a couple times (for each resolution) and then keep the results cached somewhere. At least for popular videos that combined take up 99% of bandwidth. For 0 views videos I'd imagine they only store the highest resolution and compress it further down on demand.

    I'd argue DRMing all those popular videos would take up so much computing power it cannot be offset by ads.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Whatever the latest version of HDCP is, sure. HDCP is a core feature of the HDMI spec.

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