We are just finding out about a child sex trafficking ring involving politicians and billionaires, the world’s richest man does a Nazi salute at a political rally, and the President being an adjudicated sex criminal is probably not the worst thing he has done…

Meanwhile I’m standing here in the checkout line feeling guilty about whether or not I should tip a barista

Something is wrong with our collective notion of morality, and my individual understanding (Oh well, here we are)

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[–] 1 point 1 year ago

Honestly, I think my moral OCD needed to hear this.

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  • [–] 247 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    And make sure to turn off all the lights and appliances you're not using to save power for the AI. This future is trash.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago

    And reduce your water usage because it's a drought. While we grow water heavy crops like almonds in those drought stricken regions and foreign investors from arid countries grow water heavy crops like alfalfa solely for export back home.

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  • [–] 130 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Just finding out? Haha, no, we've known about this ring for the better part of a decade now. The wealthy and powerful probably a lot longer than that.

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  • [–] 65 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Even the next part:

    world’s richest man does a Nazi salute at a political rally,

    Don't get me wrong, horrible and completely unacceptable.

    But sure as shit is nowhere near the line of what's happened with the last 100 years:

    The Business Plot, also called the Wall Street Putsch[1] and the White House Putsch, was a political conspiracy in 1933 in the United States to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator.[2][3] Butler, a retired Marine Corps major general, testified under oath that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with him as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormack–Dickstein Committee") on these revelations.[4] Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

    In case anyone's eyes glazed over instead of reading, two key points:

    wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with him as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt.

    And even more importantly:

    Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."

    Shit didn't just get bad, it's been bad.

    And the way to fight it is an opposition party like FDR.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    The Business Plot never ended, they just regrouped. All those fuckers involved should have been hung.

    The way to fight it isn't a FDR-style party that will just give concessions to staunch the momentum of the working class, which was rallying behind communist ideology through unionization efforts, that was threatening the capitalist status quo at the time. That status quo is the entire root of the problem. The only way to fight it is to dismantle the system that gives them their power and build something new, not to continue enabling the very systems that keep us on our knees.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Everyone acting like these are the worst times ever, makes me wonder about their history education. Yeah, America's taken a steep dive this century. Yeah, that's normal for empires to fall. Usually to greed.

    I'm hoping we crash hard, Great Depression hard. That clusterfuck ushered in liberal politics dominating until the 90s. We had conservatives, Reagan comes to mind, but they didn't have unchecked power like today.

    Only exception I got is global warming. We've never played this particular game before.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 1 year ago

    False premise. I never said it was the worst time ever, or even that I was surprised.

    This is just about the relativity of my morality and what society is willing to tolerate

    (this to the above two smart comments as well - although I don’t fundamentally disagree)

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    Only exception I got is global warming. We’ve never played this particular game before

    I mean...

    Anatomically modern humans have been around, what, 300k years?

    Like you could grab someone from back then as an infant, raise them today, and they'd just be a regular dude.

    The last ice age ended about 50k years ago, and that's why we say civilization was finally able to start. But that ignores that humans went thru the same ice age cycle 4-5 times in those 300k years.

    If all it took was "no ice age" then logically the chances of the first civilization being 50k years ago is pretty much zero.

    Climate change is like the inevitable reset for humanity. We're making it happen fast this time, but we can't really be sure that's unique either. It doesn't even take us, just a supervolcanoe or asteroid.

    Bright side is it makes it more likely humanity as a species makes it thru the next one. I think evidence shows we've been down to like 1,000 humans world wide 70k years ago? Maybe as little as 50 adults of reproductive age?

    But we're 8 something billion now.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Only exception I got is global warming. We’ve never played this particular game before.

    We also never had nukes before.

    The conditions have been worse in the past, but the risks are so much worse these days.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Reminds me of something. Martin Luther’s own writings dating from 1531, in which he stated that Pope Leo X:

    Vetoed a measure that cardinals should restrict the number of boys they kept for their pleasure, otherwise it would have been spread throughout the world how openly and shamelessly the Pope and the cardinals in Rome practice sodomy.

    Our tech changes but we don't.

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  • [–] 62 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    On a related note, the latest Trump administration cabinent picks and antics unironically cured my impostor syndrome.

    If these gaggle of fucking demented backstabbing morons are good enough to run this country...

    And they can show that about half the country is actually so stupid and or intentionally blind and or evil to somehow not realize their cult leader just obviously is a huge rapist and pedoohile...

    Then I am better than this country.

    Better qualified, more empathetic, more competent.

    Turns out it was just angry clowns gaslighting us the whole time.

    Well uh fuck em, this is all so stupid that I now actually have the correct amount of self-confidence and self-respect, it is indeed this entire society that is a joke, not that I am somehow fundamentally inadequate.

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  • [+] 58 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Our leaders are so disconnected from the average person only them being forced to confront their own mortality can snap them out of it.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago*

    we known it since 2019, when he epsteined himself. and it went back decades, the MSM did thier best to not report it for the last 4 years. because too many politicians, both US and the world leaders, plus many donors. just like with the panama papers.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    The thing is:

    The little things do matter. They shape who you are. They shape the lives of the people around you. They're important.

    But this is like a death-penalty-on-the-table-murder-trial being interrupted by a nuclear bomb. And that shit always happens.

    Yes this other shit happens more, yes it's a priority, and yes none of your everyday decency will influence it in the slightest, but it still matters.

    You just also have to fix that other shit.

    It's not'nothing matters' its 'fuck, more work'.

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  • [–] 48 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    No, your notion of morality is accurate, there's no reason to race to the bottom because someone else sucks more.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Are you really feeling guilty about not tipping because of the moral implications, or do you just feel socially shamed? Important distinction.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Considering the idea of shame is society's way to enforce it's version of morality, I would argue no it is not a distinction.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Like you said, society's version of morality. So it can be a very important distinction because your own version of morality might differ. Not being aware of this distinction is dangerous because it stops people from developing their own moral compass. This own morality is more firm and can be relied on in the absence of shame, or even when society encourages behavior one finds immoral.

    I'm even gonna go on a wilder speculation here and claim that one of the driving factors behind humanity's worst atrocities was that large portions of society who had the potential in them for a firm morality rooted in empathy and love never developed this potential.

    On a less import note, not being aware of this distinction can breed a lot of resentment and unhappiness, if someone is constantly compelled to follow rules that they, deep down, consider to be bullshit.

    Of course that doesn't mean I encourage people to just disregard society's version of morality and lightly assume that they know better.

    Edit: just noticed your username, I hope that furriosa is doing well <3

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Considering that drinking coffee is my prefered kind of laxative, i would argue theres actually no distinction between coffee and shit.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Huh. I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, but I just realized I started experiencing constipation after I stopped drinking coffee. I think I should start doing that again. Thanks homie!

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago*

    I feel guilty because I’m conflicted about what the right thing to do is, the cost, and care about fellow workers.

    You probably understand why I would have a moral question (alongside some guilt of doing the wrong thing) after reading through the entire thread engaging your comment.

    Meanwhile Epstein, Elon, and Trump don’t seem to have these hang-up’s and are rewarded handsomely by society…

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    Don't expect the world to reward your good behavior. You will find your own internal motivation, or maybe not. But judging others never ends well. Just focus on your own actions. Nobody says being a good human being is easy...

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago

    While people in power are absolute evil most of the time, this is not an excuse to change your own morals for the worse.

    Small acts of kindness, when taken in decent quantity, change the world no less than massive fraud and sex trafficking.

    That said, one of the most moral things to do is to be on the lookout for powerful people doing nasty things and do everything in your capacity to prevent or at least retaliate. This makes abuse less common, and goes a long way to restore democracy and responsibility for everyone.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    It’s like that with most big ticket items, we run about worrying about recycling while the big polluters continue as usual. Not to say we shouldn’t recycle or not take action if we can but finding ways to make the billionaires pull their heads in would be better.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Don't forget, while the Qanon BS is flourishing, a former Speaker of the House (3rd in line to the presidecy) gets imprisoned for molesting at least four teenage boys.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Just finding out? Hasn't all of this been known for almost a decade now?

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

    Maxwell's father worked for various intelligence agencies. This appears to be a blackmail operation by the Mossad and/or the CIA. The former Israeli Prime Minister visited Epstein's home several times.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You know I didn't really think about that.

    I know of the connection between Maxwell and Mossad.

    Obviously Mossad needs a way to influence billionaires more than just money. The AIPAC (or whatever) has no real ability to sway them.

    The sudden acceptance by western countries acknowledging Gaza a state? Could be that Mossad and AIPAC lost their influence.

    The billionaires want Maxwell free because she gets them things they cant normally buy, plus other kickbacks from Israel I presume.

    I don't think it's blackmailing the billionaires, it's just out right not giving them what they want.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Her father’s funeral was attended by multiple former Mossad chiefs. It’s believed he gave israel the bomb.

    I’d definitely look in that direction.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    It’s believed he gave israel the bomb.

    I don't think the timelines on this match up one bit. In fact I wonder what you're trying to do by linking them. I'll buy the mossad, their fingers are everywhere, but the israeli nuclear program predates epstein by decades. It would take them ages to get to the point where they could test their work - probably the Vela incident - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_incident - and at this time epstein was teaching teens math and science then went on to banking.

    so I don't understand how you conflate these things.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I've learned paedophiles seem to be naturally skilled with grabbing power throughout history and the present is no differnt. I'm more aware of that fact now.

    I've also learmed a large percentage of humans actually are fine with their leaders raping children. One might think they're fine with it in general.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    They have no morals, which is why they can grab power so easily. They're not playing by the rules. Thus to win consistently, you'd need to cheat as well.

    Then you're left with two options. Cheat to win too, or rolling heads.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    You may be noticing now. But people have been doing terrible things without consequences forever.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Morality and laws are for the plebs. If you’re rich or powerful enough, you get to do whatever you want, so long as you don’t harm another rich or powerful person.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    The hierarchy is natural and good and all ills are due to someone violating the hierarchy.

    Therefore, laws are only useful when they support the hierarchy.

    Any efforts to make society less hierarchical and more equitable are either (a) lies in an attempt to climb the hierarchy (b) doomed to failure and disastrous to the participants because it's against the (natural and good) hierarchy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agzNANfNlTs&list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&index=11


    EDIT: The above is meant as a satire of the conservative thought process, and does not reflect my beliefs (most of the time).

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Chatting with a buddy of mine this morning. He is looking at stuff he did in his life. He went to see the play, Annie, when he was a kid.

    "They wouldn't do Annie today, it's too woke" I said. Then, it dawned on me. "I'm wrong. Annie would be totally fine.

    Short review: 'An orphaned girl is bought by a billionaire real estate magnate and groomed at a luxury resort," would fit right in with the morals of a political party

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's a tough go for the people who believe in pacifism or nonviolent change.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Dual Power means you can have a pacifist stance and still support the radicals in your lane.

    Not everyone needs to be a gunslinger for a resistance to succeed. Just do what you can when you have the chance.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I never meant to imply a pacifist would be required to engage in violence, only that they would have to indirectly support it at the very least, lest their own principles be engulfed by those who would see to their extinction.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    You're just finding out maybe.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    Apparently this is not a shower thought🤔 /s

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    My morality works fine. A bunch of lead drinking, lead breathing, racist rednecks need to get fixed.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    He also puts into perspective how easily manipulated we all are.

    We still give the most amount of power to the least trustworthy people. It's disgusting.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I would go with modern socialism/communism but, ever since Joe McCarthy, america tastes bile in their throat every time those words are bandied about. Pavlov and B.F. Skinner would be proud.

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    At the top, it’s a bit different, they don’t need that kind of voluntary self control

    They do. The same way the Mafia or the Police do. The morality is fealty and service to your liege and your nation. Guilt comes from betrayal and dishonor, which always involves disappointing your betters.

    One thing GoT does well is spelling out the perverse attitudes of aristocracy relative to the proles. Even the "noble" characters are awful for one reason or another

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  • [+] 7 points 1 year ago* (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    morality will fly out the window

    In my experience, it's the times of crisis that bring morality to the forefront.

    The number of genuinely good hearted people will surprise you.

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  • In many ways, we're already at that point. Crises often don't come out of nowhere, and if we think of crisis as a sliding scale rather than a binary, I would argue we're already in a time of crisis, and have been for a while.

    That's why I agree with you. I am often miserable and demoralised, and I often feel suicidal because of my personal hopelessness. The goodness you describe is a huge part of why I'm still here. It gives me a wider sense of hope, because many of the best people I know are just as aware of the harms caused by the unchecked power of assholes, but the worse that the world gets, the more steadfastly good they are. Most of them are as depressed as me, but they seem to draw strength from the defiance of giving a fuck about morality in a world on fire.

    It invokes a sense of duty in me that helps bolster my own resilience. When I was a suicidal teen, I felt like I was staying alive solely for other people, and this wasn't a productive or healthy way to live. This sense of duty feels different, because it's not framed as if I am a living martyr, sacrificing my own happiness for other people. Instead, it's grounded in the recognition that we're all struggling, and I actively want to stand alongside the defiant good people. Given the shakiness of my resolve, I don't feel like I have much concrete to add to their efforts, but perhaps I can show them that even when it feels like you're losing the big fight, the very act of resistance can galvanise the hearts of people who had already given up. After all, I'm still here.

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