Surely this will decrease food prices /s
post
These complete morons will not have food if these people do not pick the food.
Gaza is the testing grounds for what life is about to be like in the West. Starvation will be used as a weapon eventually, and who's gonna stop them?
who’s gonna stop them?
I guess we'll be finding out in LA.
I believe the front will be a little Bigger then just LA after a few days.
There are nationwide protests planed on the fascists bday and he already promised to send the military to any form of protest.
I believe the front will be a little Bigger then just LA after a few days.
People have been looking for a place to focus their energy. 6 months of feeling completely on our heals because Democrats chose a strategy of curl up and die.
People are hungry for action, and these kinds of events exponentiate organizing.
I don't know, we had a huge protest in my city a few months ago (made the front page of the NYT), but every subsequent attempt to organize has been disappointingly small. I hope this Saturday creates momentum but I worry people will check off the "resistance" box and go back home. We'll see what happens! 🤞 Actual concrete events happening in LA may enliven people.
If he really does try and do that it could backfire spectacularly on him.
I'll believe it when I see it. Police could bomb their own cities with plastic explosives and Americans won't do anything about it.
I wonder how many mid-50s or older Americans are on Lemmy?
Definitely more or fewer than you think. Unless you're absolutely phenomenal at guessing.
Us greybeards are here....
Hey, I have a little grey in my beard!
As someone who was only just alive in 1985 though, I'm curious where you were in the US in 1985 and if you remember how big or widespread the news coverage was on the MOVE bombing?
I was in H.S. in 85... I don't remember anything labeled MOVE bombing. Back then it was still big 3 networks for me, I had no cable. Everything was appointment TV including the news.
You didn't need to be alive when the MOVE bombing happened in order to know about it.
We used to actually learn about shit like this sometimes in public schools...
I mean its going to be streaming on all channels, all day today, tomorrow, and the especially Saturday.
If you aren't seeing it, it might have more to do with where you are looking.
The protests won't go far enough to make a difference and fizzle out like every other "movement" in American history.
Of course they won't, years of docile programming via reality TV shows, and ma sports!
They can't really do that in America, there's too much land and room and food. They could temporarily trap a population within a city by surrounding it with some barricades and stuff but that won't last long. The population size of the US has a massive ratio of more citizens than law enforcement and military. They can't take us all.
For someone like me, if the food supplies were all cut off I could just live off of the land by hunting, fishing, and farming.
They can't really do that in America, there's too much land and room and food.
50% of the produce we consume is grown in the California central valley. The rest is grown in a few areas of the Great plains and in Florida.
Most of the food you see growing anywhere else isn't for people, it's for livestock.
For someone like me, if the food supplies were all cut off I could just live off of the land by hunting, fishing, and farming.
I think you are overestimating just how much food "the land" can provide. You need around an acre a person for subsistence farming, and that is assuming you live in a region that has a decent climate, that you have irrigation, and have access to modern fertilizer and pesticides.
As far as hunting and fishing goes..... If a large sector of the population had to live off the land, the wildlife likely wouldn't last a single season. The only reason we still have the wild animal populations we currently have is because there are strict regulations monitoring the amount of people who hunt and fish.
Early Americans were able to devastate a larger healthier ecology with a tiny fraction of our current population. Most of our country's natural Forrest and woodland were already destroyed and artificially rehabilitated over a hundred years ago. We have very few old growth Forrest for us to actually live off of.
If it weren't for petrochemical fertilizer the natural nitrogen cycle wouldn't be enough to sustain our current population. Since the invention of the haber process in the 1930s we are all just a bad year away from food insecurity.
alabama tried this in the past, they lost billions from doing this. florida is currently going through this, as well.
There are areas and kinds of people who can live off the land, in one way or another. They do exist.
They aren't the majority or the targets here, but they're around.
The rest is accurate, but the military really is in the same boat as the rest of us.
There are areas and kinds of people who can live off the land,
Sure... And have you ever entered a major US city? What, are people going to "live off the land" in the middle of Central Park? Millions of New Yorkers?
There are areas and kinds of people who can live off the land, in one way or another. They do exist.
They can live off the land when the vast majority of the population isn't trying to do the same. Hungry human populations are worse than locust, we can absolutely destroy entire ecologies in weeks.
the military really is in the same boat as the rest of us.
In the scenario they proposed the military would be controlling the means of food production. This isn't something we have to guess about, there's plenty of examples of intentional famines like what the Brits did to Bengal, and the Irish, or the Soviets in Ukraine, and unintentional like during China's cultural revolution. During those famines the military didn't starve, the common people did.
If those populations who were already subsistence farmers and hunters couldn't "live off the land" then what makes you think anyone on lemy is going to do any better?
Okay so I'm going to ignore most of what you said because i already replied to it, but:
I'm not sure they could control the means of production here. A lot of it is in and around areas that arent ideal terrain for fighting on their side.
I'm not sure they could control the means of production here.
You don't think a military force could control the supply line of some farmers? Most of which are already owned by large conglomerates that would gladly follow the orders of the government.....
A lot of it is in and around areas that arent ideal terrain for fighting on their side.
Have you been to the central valley? It's just large open fields and orchards surrounded by gentle rolling hills, it's not the fucking korengal valley my dude.
and around
Unless they're airlifting it all out. In which case it still has to fly over terrain that's not to their advantage. And we also make the missiles here.
The best option for them would be the port of oakland. Theres lots of shitty tech bros there, but you still see tributes to the best and best dressed mlm's to ever pick up a rifle, some of whom are, while far past fighting age, still kicking around a dense high tech city-and this would be for their food supply line, so it wouldn't exactly be possible to starve them out.
owned by
The farms are all staffed by people who hate them. Every single one, not just here but especially here. Even the small/mid sized farmers-and i have talked to them-hate this shit, or are literally beibg chased out of the fields, literally as i type this. The logistics lines are disproportionately worked by those same people.
Maybe they could get corn and wheat.
Or maybe you could get marines to pick apples, if you didnt give a single shit about the morale of your troops, health of your trees, abysmal recruiting numbers, already too-small military...
Unless they're airlifting it all out. In which case it still has to fly over terrain that's not to their advantage.
Why would they have to fly anything out of the valley? If the military is able to secure supply lines in war zones that have more than small arms resistance I don't think it's going to be a challenge to secure them in Cali.
we also make the missiles here.
Who's we? It's not like the entire country is going to support a rebellion, especially not anyone in the military industrial complex. Even if you have missiles, you don't have the weapons platforms or even know how to operate them.
The best option for them would be the port of oakland. Theres lots of shitty tech bros there, but you still see tributes to the best and best dressed mlm's to ever pick up a rifle, some of whom are, while far past fighting age, still kicking around a dense high tech city-and this would be for their food supply line, so it wouldn't exactly be possible to starve them out.
What are you talking about? Why would food have to go to Oakland? You don't ship food from California to the rest of the country on boats.... Nor are some old dudes with small arms going to be able to do anything to military convoy.
The farms are all staffed by people who hate them. Every single one, not just here but especially here. Even the small/mid sized farmers-and i have talked to them-hate this shit, or are literally beibg chased out of the fields, literally as i type this. The logistics lines are disproportionately worked by those same people.
Work gangs, prison labour, political prisoners, hungry people willing to capitulate to feed their families.....you know the same thing that has happened throughout history. Plus, there's plenty of conservative chuds in the valley.
supply lines
Look at a map. Talk to the people in all the places you'd have to go through. Maybe if they let this die down, and start it with something other than a police action. But if this goes hot? From fed cops? No. The sierra-nevadas may as well be in afghanistan.
They wont be the hardest place in the country. That'll be between chicago or appalachia-but they will be a no-go zone for fed troops.
who's we
True, it wont be universal. I'm even seeing people in OC upset about this though, and if the admin's lost them, they've lost every major foothold with californians. Maybe downtown palo alto, for about five minutes. Maybe san diego, if they skew the demographics with a few aircraft carriers-but theres not much food between there, mexico, and the mountains.
old dudes with small arms
You don't even know what a maoist 'people's war' even is, and that's likely the doctrine they'll start with. You certainly don't know who the panthers were, or the kinds of people they were. You don't know what or where you're talking about.
chuds
Chuds can't and wont do real work. Not in numbers, anyway.
prison labor
Then the food all burns. Prisoners are busy.
other flavors of slavery
Notoriously productive resilient and efficient with their military resources: Slave States!
Plus, that'll really help keep the populace complacent. You know where the us military recruits from? You know how overrepresented african americans are in it? They do plantations, they cut off at least half of their troops, with only terminally online white boys to replace them. It'll be the posters army, and not even the good posters.
You play too many fucking map view strategy games. Go outside, maybe read a book. Or at least play the more complicated map games.
Look at a map. Talk to the people in all the places you'd have to go through. Maybe if they let this die down, and start it with something other than a police action. But if this goes hot? From fed cops? No. The sierra-nevadas may as well be in afghanistan.
I used to live in the Western foothills of the valley..... it's mostly empty rolling hills dude.
The logistics of getting food to stores is complex and it really wouldn't take much but some instability to cause major food insecurity in the majority of the country.
True, it wont be universal. I'm even seeing people in OC upset about this though, and if the admin's lost them, they've lost every major foothold with californians. Maybe downtown palo alto, for about five minutes. Maybe san diego, if they skew the demographics with a few aircraft carriers-but theres not much food between there, mexico, and the mountains.
I think you are overestimating the amount of people who would transition from being upset to taking up arms against the government. Most people barely pay attention to politics.
You don't even know what a maoist 'people's war' even is, and that's likely the doctrine they'll start with. You certainly don't know who the panthers were, or the kinds of people they were. You don't know what or where you're talking about.
Lol, the CCP were fighting with much more than just small arms. They and the kmt were both supplied by the US and the Soviets against the Japanese.
You certainly don't know who the panthers were, or the kinds of people they were. You don't know what or where you're talking about.
The Black Panthers never went to war with a military..... Fred Hampton was murdered by regular cops with pistols shotguns and rifles.
Just because I don't buy into your delusion that all of California is going to rise up and defeat aircraft carriers with som Glock and some semi auto rifles, doesn't mean I don't know about leftist revolutions.
Chuds can't and wont do real work. Not in numbers, anyway.
Chuds already manage the farms and ranches in Cali.
Notoriously productive resilient and efficient with their military resources: Slave States!
Yes, because there's no historical evidence of militant police states being able to feed themselves......
You play too many fucking map view strategy games. Go outside, maybe read a book. Or at least play the more complicated map games.
Lol, dude. You are projecting.... You sound exactly like all the come and take it right winged chuds who thinks they're going to turn into Rambo over night.
i visited the foothills once
I have lived all over the state. I know it pretty well. I don't think you do.
logistics are hard
Yeah. That's what i said. I didn't say we would stay healthy, i said they couldn't starve the people without going hungry themselves. Im sure they could just burn it all. Might not even take two people, with enough gear. It is that season, after all.
chuds
Yeah they own stuff. But i buy my groceries from these peoples' families, and they arent all cool with this. Also, fuck who owns it, who do you think does the labor?
the panthers didnt
No. But you just kind of ignored everything i said so you could say something technically true and put it where a response to me would go.
aircraft carriers
Don't get me started.
projecting
So i got you?
visited the foothills once
Again, projecting....
Yeah. That's what i said. I didn't say we would stay healthy, i said they couldn't starve the people without going hungry themselves.
Lol, shifting the goal post ....your original claim was that people in certain areas would be fine living off the land if the government theoretically cut off the food supply. You then shifted the argument to the government cannot shut off the food supply. You then went into some weird delusional fantasy that Californians would rise up and take down aircraft carriers with missiles.
Yeah they own stuff. But i buy my groceries from these peoples' families, and they arent all cool with this.
Aren't cool with isn't the same as willing to indulge your weird ass fantasy land where they become freedom fighters.
Yes some people are willing to do violence to preserve their rights, but most people are just trying to live their lives and fly under the radar. Which is why history is filled with tragedy and injustice.
But you just kind of ignored everything i said so you could say something technically true and put it where a response to me would go.
What part did I ignore? You brought up incorrect facts about the CCP and the Black Panthers, which I addressed accurately.
I just think you like to speak before you think. We're not in a romantic novel, life is hard and the good guys don't always win. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just trying to temper your optimism with the reality of what happens to the vast majority of revolutionary forces.
Don't get me started
You were the one who brought it up?
So i got you?
So you don't know what projection is?
I'd be careful with that last point - when a modern people is suddenly forced to turn to the land for sustenance instead of the industrial supply chain, overfishing and overhunting become problems quickly...you won't be the only person out looking for a meal.
Well at least our animal ecosystems are currently robust and thriving, right??
Another point to add.
People will likely become a targets of other people hunting.
When there is only so much to go around....
I think more human lives will be lost than wild lives, but I can be wrong.
For someone like me, if the food supplies were all cut off I could just live off of the land by hunting, fishing, and farming.
A government that is willing to cut off food supplies, isn't likely to allow people the freedom to farm, fish or hunt.
They could temporarily trap a population within a city by surrounding it with some barricades and stuff but that won’t last long.
Why wouldn't it last long? Is there some sort of organized fighting force of the people we're not aware of? Didn't think so.
The population size of the US has a massive ratio of more citizens than law enforcement and military. They can’t take us all.
Yet they already are.
For someone like me, if the food supplies were all cut off I could just live off of the land by hunting, fishing, and farming.
Ah yes, the government has famously left people like you alone and totally won't turn your land into gravel, drain your water table, and dump the pollution into your river.
training with the IDF, and using PALINTR by the leo to track people down.
Jokes on them I've been dealing with food scarcity for most my life. I forsge more than I shop.
The problem is most don't and it's not a sustainable practice for a large sedentary group.
The "poors" wont have food. Not once will they ever consider that the poors provide them with their treats and they will wake up one day and be told there are no treats.
Maybe they need to get off their obese behinds and get agricultural jobs.
Any wonder why this is happening in Ventura county and not Florida?
No but see i can just pay more and have food.
How much does an ICE agent make?
Does a government job pay well enough that they can afford their grocery bill doubling? I have a government job, and I’m thinking of leaving to start my own thing, because I can anticipate that we’re not going to be able to afford to eat for much longer. The selection of produce in stores is already getting worse.
Okay but no, see, i can just pay more and it'll be fine. Markets will save me.
There's no such thing as 'there just isn't any of that'.
I see you’ve never been outside of America.
It is possible for there to just not be something. It’s called no one grew it or ranched it or imported it because most people are priced out of buying it.
But good luck with praying to the market, I’m sure that will go well.
good luck praying to the market
Don't need luck. I got my ford F50000 fleshreaper (BLOOD FOR THE CAR GOD™) and a lift kit, plus a commute that takes me past not one but two elementary schools. The moloch markets'll be plenty pleased with my sacrifice
it's called noone grew it or ranched it or imported it
What's that got to do with anything? I ain't some DIY hippie type. I spend money to get what i need. Money makes stuff appear. Clearly you ain't ever had any.
We've already seen the ghost of Christmas future here, it's when Georgia implemented their live scan law and all the small and mid size farmers in Georgia lost their whole harvest (and subsequently, the farm) because they just couldn't get Americans to come and pick for what they're willing to pay. A lot of these farmers voted and stumped for Trump, believing that certainly the face eating leopard who eats everyone's face and promises to eat everyone's face wouldn't eat their face. Get ready for a lot of "waaahhh, I didn't think he would hurt meeeeeeee" from these guys as millions of pounds of tomatoes rot on the vine this summer.
Also, this just fucking sucks. I live in the central valley, ag is a really big deal here, and a lot of ag workers are really hard-working stand up folks. Nobody deserves ICE, but these folks especially don't deserve it. I'd like to take this opportunity to wish ICE agents a very merry court date ASAP.
I wish these assholes rapid lead poisoning.
Second to that, a careful and thorough rout of them all, prosecuted heavily and drained of any assets by their victims for violating due process.
And the bankrupt farms will be bought up en-masse by corporations owned by Gates and other billionaires who will "make a deal" to let them get away with slave immigrant labor. It's part of the plan.
Yeah but who got in trouble for hiring them? Did the farm owner run?
It's only a crime to be an exploited worker. It's not a crime to exploit workers.
Well said. Fuck.
That's how you know this is all political bull shit. If they actually wanted to solve the "problem" in a much easier, more efficient way, then they would just go after the people that hire them.
Farm owner likely voted for this.
"They're just taking innocent people who are trying to build their own American Dream," said Daniel Larios with the UFW Foundation. "This is not law enforcement. It's a campaign of fear against people whose only 'crime' is living and working in the U.S."
When everything is illegal, nothing is illegal.
Doesn't mean people won't suffer, but when people have nothing to lose and everything to gain and will suffer regardless, then what?
Ah yes, the dangerous criminals that are out farming for slave wages. Good job ICE. I'm assuming that ICE is going to punish the farmer that employed these dangerous criminals? ICE has entirely lost the fucking plot...
I can't wait for those MAGAS to finally get those lost jobs, and go pick up fruits and veggies for * check notes * 2 dollar an hour!
Surely we'll see republicans back to the farms, any moment from now
The plot is to make people angry enough where they do something worthy of getting black bagged. The US government wants people to act irrationally.
lost the fucking plot
Oh they never had it to begin with. They were always just nazis, but now the leash is off. Even worse, they're being pushed to fill quotas, which incentivizes recklessness and cruelty.
Yet Americans belong to their many denominations of a imperialist death cult of toxic positive optimism. We are cooked. No party will save us. Life is about to become impossible.
May every raid these fucks try to do be in the afternoon heat in full gear, with a raging hangover.
Like the scene in Andor. That series was very on point when it comes to the political landscape in the US today.
I’m at a point now where I can’t wait for this all to blow up. Literally and figuratively.
Going after our farm workers is not going to end well for anyone. I can only hope that someone in power will wake up and do something about it.
Cool, so we can look forward to empty shelves in grocery stores for domestic products and steep tariffs on foreign food products?
I'm ready for the fat fucks in this country to find out what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you. My misanthropic tendencies grow by the day.
This is such a limp dick country... I fucking hate the USA... Genocidal fascist imperialist shit stain of a country.
Oh but your average employment-seeker will totally line up to do that job for slave wages, so it’s all gud. /s
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