if you're running a business (like epic), and you feel like you're somehow just entitled to a certain percentage of the market share dominated by the king of the market (steam), while also giving consumers literally no reason to give you that money (in epic's case, actually giving more reasons NOT to use them), then-- LOL get fucked. keep shitting on linux and refusing to unfuck your shit tier slopfest UI, while whining about everything. i find it amusing.
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If Epic could find a way to monetize the constant fucking whining about Valve they'd be doing great.
Yeah, and their unknowable secret sauce to win capitalism was to not overdo it and enshittify. Wild stuff. Who could tell that keeping your userbase happy is more productive in the long term than chasing "growth" at every turn?
Give it a generation or three, but yes.
Companies that "haven't gone evil" yet are like dynasties that aren't ruled by a mad king, yet.
It usually comes after the original founder leaves or dies.
Kiaran Ritchie, former principal animation engineer at Epic Games kicked off discussions surrounding Steam's 30% sales cut last week (with the assertion that "you could vibe code a Steam alternative in a week").

It turns out "some other company will make more money" isn't a compelling sales pitch for your store. Who knew
It took Steam so long to add a shopping cart, because there weren't many games in Steam at that time anyway. And it took so long for Epic Games to add a shopping cart, because nobody wanted to buy many games on Epic anyway (due to either Fortnite only play or just to grab Free Game giveaways).
Epic actually make a good product challenge
level: impossible
No wonder they think its impossible, because they vibe code everything now.
No disagreement hating on vibe-coding, but that has nothing to do with it. Making a good product went directly against Epic's customer-exploitation goals long before that became a thing.
We've tried nothing and we're out of ideas.
What do you mean? They tried the most capitalist of solutions, buying themselves into the space free games and exclusivity! It's a shame it takes a bit more than just being able to click "play" (and not even that in Linux) to have a shop front people want to use.
Steam has problems, Epic games could fix that. They choose to whine about it on social media instead.
They could, but they won't.
The major way they broke capitalism was by not going public. Gabe has to answer to nobody, so the usual gang of corporate fucking idiots can't force him to do short sighted shit to make a short term squeeze at the cost of long term viability.
This is the key. It's the WHOLE thing. A runaway cap table destroys companies, always. Investors have different exit horizons and they are fundamentally incompatible with long term viability.
All you need to do to compete with a publicly owned company is capitalism is wait for their investors to get too greedy.
I've been screaming this exact sentiment into the void for a long time, so it's nice to see someone else who understands.
The main reason companies are getting so shitty right now isn't a blanket "capitalism bad". Companies need to have a clear goal that they pursue with a coherent vision, and that is impossible when you auction away control of the driver's seat to a comittee of random people with varying interests.
Fixing those problems wouldn't get anyone to move over. It's another launcher and store. Who the fuck wants that? Until GabeN dies, Valve is taken public, and things get straight up shitty on Steam, nobody's going to start buying games on another platform.
itch and gog are both great storefronts and I continue to buy games from both of those. At this point the only person who can defeat Steam is Steam itself. You might laugh but I've seen a change in leadership absolutely destroy companies before. Let us all pray that Gaben lives forever. The next person might run Steam into the ground to make himself richer, just like all our American CEO's.
What's with all the shade on GOG and itch? They're great, and arguably serve other segments of the gaming market better already. The only difference is that Steam has a dominant position in online and AAA PC gaming, which is all corpos actually care about.
They are ignored in conversations like this because their existence undermines the monopoly accusations aimed at Steam. Talk like this isn't about the reality, but trying to tear Steam down so Epic can compete without having to actually provide a good product.
Epic doesnt want to compete. It wants a to have a nice fat profit to he carved out for it so it can keep its investors happy with forever growth.
I guess I could have been more accurate by saying that Epic wants a larger market share without having to provide a quality product.
epic should fucking die and its c suite should be used to reproduce the Tuskegee experiment.
Wish people would start asking Epic why they aren't letting Alan Wake 2 be released on GOG and itch, since they act like Steam is the only platform and attack it to avoid being asked why they are holding the game hostage from coming out on other platforms.
It‘s a quasi monopoly. Their service cannot be ignored if you want your product to succeed on the market. You cannot choose a valid alternative. This is not about malevolence on Valve’s side, but a market reality.
To maximize sales, you do need to put your product on Steam. That doesn't mean it is a monopoly.
Steam likely could leverage their market position to become a monopoly, but they aren't one now. Just because they are a vital part to any large scale game launch doesn't make them a monopoly, quasi or otherwise.
I don't think it is a particularly healthy market, and I wish there were even more options. That doesn't change the fact all the monopoly talk has been driven by bad faith actors trying to attack steam without any real cause.
Not maximizing sales, having any sales to speak of at all.
So people put their games on Epic, GOG, itch, Xbox, PS5 and whatever else for funsies? Definitely not because people buy their game from those places. They can even put their game up on those other marketplaces without any penalty from steam. Almost like there are alternatives available. Having the largest market share and having large influence in a market does not equal a monopoly.
quasi monopoly
Saying it again doesn't make it less wrong. They are in a position where they could possibly use anticompetitive practices to become a monopoly or close to it. Currently they are not, and are not a quasi monopoly either. They simply have created a well rounded service that is preferred by a majority in the PC space.
If you want the store front to take a smaller cut then you can sell on itch. If you want to buy games without DRM then check out GOG. If you like shitty service, venture capitalists, enshittification, and AI slop then Epic has you covered.
It's not a quasi monopoly for me, the user, but for publisher who want to sell games. They have to go through Steam if they want to sell on PC. This would be an absolute no-brainer if it wasn't tangled up in some bullshit culture war.
So World of Warcraft isn't a game that exists? How about Fortnite? League of Legends? Genshin Impact? Minecraft? Those games never sold well and didn't make any money.
It’s not. The only reason people see it as such is because valve has consumers trust they act in the consumers best interest.
Other companies hate this, because it doesn’t allow them to do some anti consumer practices
There is definitely a strong network effect. If Valve started enshittifying, it is impossible for customers to completely switch to a competitor without losing their community, their game library, their game controller, their gaming portable, and access to steam-exclusive games.
It is very much an early Facebook situation, but Valve has never enshittified.
It is for publishers as customers, not for users of course. You can't realistically navigate around their service if you want to make money with your game.
You can't realistically navigate around their service if you want to make money with your game.
Where are you getting this from? Yes you can absolutely do this. Mojang did this for decades a la Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress did this for decades. Roblox is massive. World of Warcraft, I mean, yes you can absolutely make a hit title, sell well, and have nothing to do with Steam.
Edit: The most recent example right now is Hytale, which is purposely not on Steam and reached 1M+ active players in the first week.
blizzard was really doing well with diablo and overwatch before they decided to be stupid af. now those games are on steam LOL
dear blizzard: too late LOL
Destiny too, like it wasn't like they were doing bad before bringing titles over to Steam. It's clear they wanted more money which is why they did that lol. They were already making plenty and decided they wanted to make more
You're listing absolute unicorns. Ask any dev/publisher that want to release a game and they will 100% not skip Steam.
That's a lot of Unicorns that don't fit your narrative lol. I could list more, but I think I already proved my point. Yes it's possible to publish a game and be successful without Steam, and yes it's been done multiple times across the existence of Steam.
yes, please list more. it's not "my" narrative, it's economic realism. ask some devs.
League of Legends, Genshin Impact, fucking Star Citizen isn't even a proper game (yet?) and it's the highest grossing game-related kickstarter in the history of kickstarters. The 5th highest kickstarter ever. StarCraft series, Diablo (up to 4), Lineage series, FIFA Online, really anything Tencent touches that has online capabilities. And of course the OG Ultima Online which still runs today.
None of these even really scratch the surface of the massive Korean/Asian PC gaming markets or the Browser-only games that were wildly successful in the days of Facebook lmao
Existing customer bases are a requirement. Asian markets are different, true.
That just reinforces my argument, and it sounds like we finally agree: You don't need Steam or Valve to make a financially successful game. You need an audience. Steam provides a big one, but you can absolutely garner that audience outside of Steam and the examples I provided are proof of that.
Plenty of studios and developers build that audience outside of Steam using the massive swathe of social media outlets to this day. Hypixel was/is a massive Minecraft server with a huge number of daily players and their growth in popularity was mostly through forums, and later Discord. Minecraft itself started with forum posts and grew purely through word of mouth. Dwarf Fortress was free for a very long time and lived purely off donations before it eventually came to Steam after it already had a massive audience. None of them had any base to speak of from the start. They built those audiences and none of that build up happened through Steam.
The reason I'm even bothering is because people newer to game dev read threads like this. Tell them "Steam is required" and they don't try anything else. Then the lack of success stories gets used as proof that Steam is required even when it's not. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it's wrong.
You don't need Steam, but it is really not advisable to skip them, to a point where you do need to publish there. That makes it a quasi monopoly, whether Valve intended to do that doesn't matter. These exception are still extremely rare (and Hytale could only build an audience because Minecraft was already there without Steam). On r/gamedev, the question is almost never asked (a telling sign already), but here's an instance where it has been asked and fellow indie game devs and professionals are pretty clear on the necessity of Steam: https://archive.ph/b7202
Huh? Steam is absolutely a monopoly in PC game sales.
Monopoly doesn't mean there are no alternatives. It means controlling an overwhelming share of the market.
Even Google has a monopoly w.r.t. search engines despite controlling less of its market than Steam does. If your site is deindexed by Google alone you might as well not exist for most of the population.
People keep saying that and it still isn't true. It was argued the dictionary definition wasn't good enough, so how about US legal criteria to be considered a monopoly.
Federal criteria looks at three things: market power, exclusionary conduct, and business justification.
- Market power: "...significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors." You could argue this as I believe Steam has something like 75% of PC game sales. However I don't think it would be difficult to argue that console gaming is also a market competitor which would bring their market share down some, but I'm not sure by how much. There is no hard limit for what market share is required for the firm to match this criteria. "if competitive forces or the entry of new firms could discipline the conduct of the leading firm, courts are unlikely to find that the firm has lasting market power." It is likely that if steam began being anti consumer, the existing competitors could take advantage, or other markets could be developed. So this criteria is in the maybe column.
- Exclusionary Conduct: "Obtaining a monopoly by superior products, innovation, or business acumen is legal." This alone means that even if they have the market share to be investigated as a monopoly, they haven't broken the law since they allow open competition against them. They have simply provided a superior product to consumers. "Exclusionary or predatory acts may include such things as exclusive supply or purchase agreements; tying; predatory pricing; or refusal to deal." I am unaware of Steam doing any of this. Epic on the other hand, absolutely does.
- Business Justification: "The monopolist may be competing on the merits in a way that benefits consumers through greater efficiency or a unique set of products or services." Steam is providing a unique set of services that benefit the consumer. So it seems that have a business justification.
Put simply, Steam is not a monopoly by the dictionary definition and likely wouldn't be found to be a monopoly in a legal sense either.
- Obtaining a monopoly by [various reasons] is legal
Steam is not a monopoly
Am I missing something here? Just because Steam doesn't violate the (comparatively weak) US antitrust law does not make it not a monopoly. Especially when there are clearly legal ways to have a monopoly according to point 2 and point 3.
Sorry home slice, but those facts you're dropping are a little too accurate for ol' Timbo's liking.
Haven't had someone hit me with 'home slice' in a minute. Flameo, hotman.
Now I can't help but wonder what the Venn diagram of c/pcgaming and people who get "Flameo, hotman" looks like.
It felt like a safe assumption. I bet even the highly niche agenda-driven weirdos on Lemmy have good taste in cartoons.
I don't find the ubiquity of Steam as strong as it was say 15 years ago. People are far more open to having their games on different platforms, they just don't particularly care for the Epic Games store.
I think the argument you are making is the right one though: you need to offer something different. Serve a different segment, and have some nice features to attract people. That's kind of it.
All Steam had to do is something that has long been forgotten by lot of companies these days. Treat customers well and make them feel they are the main priority.
Lot of other companies know they can treat customers like crap and still make money, and even outright reject them like Crucial deciding enterprise customers buying millions to billions in bulk sales is all they need.
Many companies think customers can be forced to buy from them. Like Epic did with exclusives and thinking sounds bites taunting Steam would wins hearts and minds. Meanwhile steam just quietly focused on improvements to their own services without acknowledging Epic.
It's the logical continuation of Gabe's law. He said piracy was a service issue and that people would be willing to pay for the product is the service was good.
Epic tried and win by the venture capitalist playbook and give away free shit and undercut the incumbents to steal away their customers. Unfortunately that doesn't work because their service is shit, and Valve has incredible soft capital built up.
I probably have 30 free games on Epic. I have literally ended up buying some of those same games on Steam because the user experience of Epic is so bad.
Yours is definitely the best explanation of the circumstances. Epic saw games as the product they were selling. Gamers can pirate games, so the free game you want with some hoops to jump through vs a free game you didn't ask for with some hoops to jump through is a weak value proposition. Valve sees Steam as the product. It's not just a good library manager, it's a store with decent discovery and relatively accurate user reviews, and a moderately useful multiplayer experience. If they had felt the pressure to incorporate TeamSpeak, then Discord wouldn't even exist, but that was money Valve didn't have to spend to still be more convenient than piracy.
I don't make a lot of money, so I've gotten value out of the free games on Epic, but their launcher is terrible for figuring out what I'd like to play next. Playnite has ended up being an incredibly useful launcher, because it can consolidate launcher libraries, then show me which games I haven't played, then sort them by critic score or user score.
People use capitalism to mean anything involving commerce, I guess.
The fact that valve is privately owned and the profits go to the owner instead of the labor isn't really the reason steam is dominant. A worker owned co-op could have succeeded by making the same product. Though if they were beholden to shareholders who demanded a profit, it probably would have resulted in a worse product. An argument against capitalism, with uninvolved owners taking profits, if anything.
They made a product people like. Boo-boo. Epic could have made a good product. They didn't.
Well let me think some reasons to actually support Valve:
- Supports open source
- Doesn't try to fuck up their customer base
- Produces nonrestrictive hardware
- Invents things to make gaming better
- Their own games actually optimized and work on older hardware
- Optimizes the gaming experience and helps 3rd party developers to be successful (literally opposite of Nintendo)
- Customer support actually work
- Non invasive opt in data collection / telemetry to make products better
- Filters away the adware customer is product bs
- Supports older hardware by updating / upgrading drivers that original manifacturer doesn't anymore (less evaste, more opportunities to game)
- Developed SteamOS (Linux distribution) to keep Microsoft from vendor locking gaming
-Supports open source
-Doesn't try to fuck up their customer base
-Produces nonrestrictive hardware
-Invents things to make gaming better
-Their own games actually optimized and work on older hardware
-Optimizes the gaming experience and helps 3rd party developers to be successful (literally opposite of Nintendo)
-Customer support actually work
-Non invasive opt in data collection / telemetry to make products better
-Filters away the adware customer is product bs
-Supports older hardware by updating drivers that original manifacturer doesn't anymore (less evaste, more opportunities to game)
-Developed SteamOS (Linux distribution) to keep Microsoft from Vendor locking gaming
If you add 2 spaces before using a line break markdown will preserve your formatting. Alternatively, if you add a space after the hyphen you can make a bullet list which will also keep your line breaks.
- Supports open source
- Doesn't try to fuck up their customer base
- ...
BS. Steam offers games simply without the bull. They didn't break capitalism, they just didn't enshitten their platform.
Or maybe they broke capitalism in the sense that they are showing that the shit they teach MBAs isn't the only or even the best path to profit and if enough people adopt (or return to) that way of doing business, they can dominate their markets and compete directly with the venture capital class that tries to compete with its financial weight more than whatever products or services it is currently peddling.
I mean, this part is so obvious to me right now. With all the complete shit products out there that have so many anti-features that I often just stop looking for things rather than get enticed by the good features, I think that competitors that come in with the intent of making good quality shit people want (where "good" can even just mean "doesn't try to spy on you") could similarly dominate their markets. And if people don't chase empires to become billionaires, I think there's a lot of room in all markets even when certain players come to dominate their local area (considering physical markets more than digital ones, since they scale very differently, though I do think that some thought could be put in to how to do this for digital markets, too... Maybe some drastic changes to IP laws).
Anticompete laws are a thing, but I don't know if they're applicable at this point to anything valve does.
Epic could also just try to not be utterly shite. I personally won't touch it as long as sweeny is involved and they are deep-throating AI.
People are tired of being milked and anti consumer practices.
Steam is the only company doing what we expected.
Jesus Christ I've seen so many posts about epic or it's out of touch CEO fucking straight up whining about Valves success. How about using the powers of publicly held capitalism and making a product that's worthwhile? You can't. Take your loss and shut the fuck up already. Yes I fully realize I'm not talking to them. Just needed to vent because this shit that passes for news these days is just fucking garbage.
You can't vibe code good leadership.
Valve's software is not the reason for thier success. It's the fact that they have stayed consistent, reliable, and forthright. When you buy a game on steam, you know exactly what the deal is, and what it will still be ten years from now.
If I buy a game on Epic, I feel no certainty I will be able to play it tomorrow, let alone in several years.
They "broke it"?
I mean sure nobody likes capitalism here but have they actually tried making a better product?
To be fair, he's kinda right about it. You can't JUST make a better product and hope gamers will move to your platform. Everyone's got dozens if not hundreds of games on Steam and nobody wants to sit in two gardens.
To get people to move over, Steam would actively have to turn shit too. There's nothing you can do to make a platform so much better than Steam currently is that it would entice people to move over. Perhaps if it sucked your dick while you're playing?
That's a separate point from Epic itself being shit.
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