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[–] 132 points 1 week ago (28 children)

Turns out we already have fusion power, it's just been placed safely 149.6 million km away. The solution to energy independence comes up every morning.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    149.6 million km

    how many American hotdogs is that?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)
  • [–] 18 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    All energy comes from the sun except for geothermal which comes from the Earth's rotational momentum which might as well be the sun because it wouldn't rotate without something to orbit around.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Technically nuclear came from a different star. The sun won't create those kinds of heavier elements until it burns through its hydrogen and helium fuel to start fusing its way up to lead, and I don't think it's massive enough to actually reach the kind of supernova collapse required to smash lesser elements together into heavier elements than that in any significant amount. So technically, fission is the only the form of energy that isn't based on solar. It's just the still-cooling-embers leftover from someone else's dying star, a whole bunch of billions of years ago. I guess you could say the sun's gravity at least attracted it all into this general vicinity though, at least until the Earth's own gravity started pulling its own weight.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Didn't the molten core also originate in some way from the sun?

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago

    Yes but no. The sun didn't form the Earth. The Earth and the sun both formed from a primordial star. You don't hear much talk about the star that actually birthed us, because theres very little we can say for certain about it. We can't even say for certain if Sol (the sun) is a second or third generation star because we only have vague notions about if the star that produced all the elements that aren't hydrogen in the solar system was long lived or went nova in under a billion years.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    The molten core is hot because a whole lot of rocks crashed into each other. Also, nuclear decay.

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  • Well... those are remnants of a supernova aren't they? So the velocities to have meaningful impacts came from a sun?

    Definitely not what I was thinking or trying to say though, and not our sun, but kinda still all the energy comes from at least, a sun.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I know you are joking, but we have several commercial fusion plants that are in the construction phase.

    Now you know why Big Oil is pushing so hard for massive profits. Between renewables and fusion the energy landscape is going to change dramatically.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    You mean a Dyson Sphere right?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    First a Dyson Ring; have you read any of the Ringworld series by David Niven? And for the time being solar panels, solar architecture, cardboard solar fucking ovens, solar deathray from a satellite dish, etc, etc, etc.....

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    I'm curious, I wonder why something like a large magnifying glass, hasn't been used to heat up something like a special metal/material or even oil or something, which can somehow be turned into storable energy for the grid 🤷‍♂️

    Other than solar panels? Consumers have to pay for their implementation, with power sold to the grid at such a low rate these days, that for single occupier dwellings, they're not worth it financially.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

    Do you mean something like the Mojave Solar Project, which has produced 5.1 million MegaWatt hours since 2015?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Solar_Project

    Or do you mean something like a smaller scale, e.g. home use? Look up Parabolic Solar Collector.

    Or are you thinking of an Heliostat? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat Something like the Solar Two, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat#/media/File:Solar_two.jpg

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Yes, something exactly like that, thank you for the link, I wonder why this idea hasn't been replicated more around the world.

    I'll take a read today, maybe I'll find out why this is so.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    I'm wondering, too. I haven't looked into the topic for some time, e.g. back when Solar 2 was being set up. At the time I had calculated that an efficient heliostat could scale down to the amount of power that four homes would use. And that was when I started thinking of forming a solar power coalition with my 3 closest neighbors. Of course we'd need a place to put the heliostat. So we'd need to raize the home on a fifth property. And of course we'd need gardens, sized for sustainable agriculture. Going from Jeavon's How To Grow More Food, my property would have enough space for me, but I would need more for my partner. Assuming 2 of similarly sized properties for each of the above would be 8, plus one for the heliostat equals 9 properties, which is pretty much the whole block. Of course the HOA was going to have issues with that, so we had to take them over their properties as well. That was ages ago, and so now we're realizing the need for additional power to run a moderate sized Data Center, and there IS that ridge to the North, which would be good placement for some discretely placed Wind Turbines.... lol

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  • [–] 78 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    You mean we can make FREE ENERGY in our BACKYARD for almost NO Money? This is TERRIBLE!

    -LITERALLY Conservatives!

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  • [–] 96 points 1 week ago (18 children)

    Technically solar power is nuclear power ☝️🤓

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  • [–] 38 points 1 week ago (15 children)

    All power is solar power if you go deep enough. Or to be more accurate, stellar power.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (11 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    Geothermal comes from friction inside the core, residual heat from planet formation, and radioactive decay. Since all elements heavier than hydrogen were fused inside stars, and heavier actinides like uranium are formed in second gen stars, and the inertia of dust that coalesces into planetary bodies including the earth and the moon originated from dying stars going supernovae, geothermal and tidal energy are products of stellar explosions, either inertial, kinetic, or radioactive. Tides are driven by the moon, whose energy is kinetic, stored from past supernovae

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (4 children)

    This raises an interesting question in my mind, does tidal power make the earth get closer to the moon? Because if you got all the energy out of it, then the water wouldn't move, so I guess it's the same as gravitational potential in that sense, but I guess it's removing it, so less gravitational potential means either less mass (not the case) or less distance.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    The opposite happens. Tidal energy is what causes the moon to drift farther away from the earth, as the moon loses angular velocity.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    But does harvesting it make it go faster or slower away?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    If you mean harvesting tidal energy, the effect on the moon would be minimal. The loss of angular momentum the moon experiences is due to the mass of the earth’s waters. I could not imagine anything humans could build that could extract enough tidal energy that it would disrupt the moon without utterly destroying the environment at the same time (by way of nullifying tides somehow). In fact, to harness tidal energy, one way would be to use underwater turbines. They would have an immediate effect to the local environment but a negligible amount to the moon itself.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    I know its minimal, I'm not saying it's a concern, I'm just saying if we are harvesting it, doesn't that mean it's pulling us closer to it? It's not magically free energy (in the physics sense), so what else could it be other than converting the potential gravitational energy between the earth and moon into something else?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Most usable energy on Earth comes from fusion of hydrogen into helium in the Sun, creating radiation that hits the Earth. That's solar energy, of course, either thermal or photovoltaics, but also the wind caused by uneven warming, the evaporation and condensation of water that flows downhill for hydro power, the chemical bonds formed by photosynthesis making renewable biofuels or older fossil fuels.

    Some portion of energy on Earth is gravitational potential energy and the kinetic energy of stuff moving around settling into a lower energy state: the moon dragging the oceans around, the heat of the Earth's core spinning and tectonic plates moving from the momentum of all the dust that got pulled into what is now a planet. Geothermal and tidal energy mostly come from these planet scale phenomena.

    Some portion of energy is the release of energy stored in nuclei formed from some past supernova, of less stable isotopes of atoms heavier than iron. Some portion of geothermal is traceable to this kind of nuclear decay, and obviously we can isolate and enrich those nuclear elements into fission fuel for nuclear power, as well.

    Hard to categorize the second and third categories into solar power, though. Yeah, it comes from astronomical phenomena tracing back to how our solar system and planets were formed, from the materials they're made out of, and found their way into their current shapes and orbits, but is that solar power?

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  • [–] 188 points 1 week ago (39 children)

    Nuclear plants - with high start-up costs, national security risks and high output - will always require concentrating large amounts of power in few hands.

    Solar has much greater potential for decentralization.

    Greater inequality results in a worse society in just about every imaginable way. And nuclear will always encourage that more than solar.

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  • [–] 51 points 1 week ago* (25 children)

    Yeah, damn governments holding all the uranium for themselves. It's just not fair.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 week ago (22 children)

    My son would argue that governments should have invested heavily in thorium reactor technology instead.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 week ago (19 children)

    That is remains a cool potential technology, but why spend billions of dollars trying to develop a worse technology when solar already exists and for much cheaper? It’s just being sidetracked while letting investors enrich themselves on government research money

    Plus it harkens back to the old adage about base power. No, we don’t need base power when we have large scale grid storage. Thats just coal propaganda

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  • [–] 29 points 1 week ago (18 children)

    That is remains a cool potential technology, but why spend billions of dollars trying to develop a worse technology when solar already exists and for much cheaper?

    This was the exact same argument made against solar. We should research and improve energy technologies. I doubt Thorium is the solution, but we've discovered a lot of our technology by researching something else and then discovering an interesting function or byproduct unrelated to the original goals.

    Plus space exploration will need to be nuclear.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    I seriously doubt there’s any useful overlap between nuclear for space and for terrestrial power generation. Even if there were, we’ve spent close to a century proving that nuclear is expensive and time consuming to run and thorium’s theoretical advantages re mostly only in comparison to existing nuclear technology. Research is always good, but that really looks like a dead end, especially in comparison to something that is cheap and ubiquitous, and entirely ready, just needs scale out. Even that is already happening

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  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    especially in comparison to something that is cheap and ubiquitous

    In some countries nuclear is cheap and ubiquitous. The key is simple standardization.

    In France for instance, nuclear accounts for about 70% of their power. They operate 57 nuclear reactors, all of which are one of 4 reactor designs. By having standardized designs these reactors are cheaper to maintain, parts and equipment are more available. The engineers that run the facilities are more familiar with every aspect of the plant, operating procedures are better understood. It's easier to find qualified engineers and technicians. Accidents are uncommon (I believe they've never had any kind of major accident).

    The price French households pay for power is comparable to what we pay in the US and they generate significantly less CO2 per capita. They also have less reliance on oil states.

    We could have that too if we were motivated to make it happen.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago

    And yet even in this ideal case where France built out a full country of standardized nuclear power half a century ago ….. a quick online search shows me they still have double the cost/KWH compared to solar

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  • [+] -18 points 1 week ago (13 children)

    LOL

    Why bring Space Nuttery into this?

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  • [–] 21 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Nuttery?

    Every dollar spent at NASA has returned so much more. They develop things for space travel that have uses far beyond space. We wouldn't even have satellites and GPS if we didn't venture into space.

    Space has a lot for us to explore and a ton of resources we can use. Why strip mine the Earth when we could just take it from the asteroid belt?

    You really need to disconnect space exploration from the likes of Musk or Bezos. We've been advancing humanity through space exploration before those two assholes were born

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  • [+] -11 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    NASA has nothing to do with nuclear research. The world would benefit from nuclear research more than sending another group for a lap around the moon.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 week ago (8 children)

    Nuclear power is a very important technology for space vehicles, probes and bases. There's proven potential for greatly improved propulsion systems as well.

    You can't just hear the word space and declare it "nuttery", that's just ignoring whole industries and areas of active research and engineering.

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  • [+] -17 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Your response is exactly Space Nuttery. Dream-like nerd fantasies.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago

    Calling yourself a nerd while you limit yours and others' inquisitiveness, passion, and imagination. Pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Oh and the best argument is not responding. Which I know, ironic. But let's see you ignore this and not give some trite, trolling response. Chances of that are pretty low.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Let's move to Mars! Let's mine the Moon or an asteroid! Let's give Musk another $100 billion!

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    We were doing worthwhile exploration well before Musk was born. It has and can be done in a way that doesn't need to be tied to him.

    Also wouldn't mining a moon or asteroid belt be preferable to mining the Earth? Like we can keep our water and environment cleaner and still get the resources we need

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  • [+] -18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Space Nuttery is thinking it's somehow important or relevant for humanity going forward.

    A power source for a floating camera to go take pictures of dead rocks and frozen chemicals is a niche interest. No one has a RTG powered city.

    "You can’t just hear the word space and declare it “nuttery”,"

    You can't just hear "Space Nuttery" and talk about space. Space is a mostly empty sucking vacuum hostile to all life and a radiation-blasted hell.

    Space Nuttery is living in a fantasy world where we'll just somehow go space mining and colonizing Mars with water from Saturn's rings like it's just a question of a longer trip to Home Depot.

    It's an intellectual dead end.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    I think thorium reactors are more complicated though. You have to achieve very high pressure or they don't work. They just hasn't really been an impetus to develop the technology.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    This is why SMRs are a thing, and may still take off.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (8 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    Depends on the location. In some places space is the commodity.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Like on the north pole maybe, but otherwise it's just a massive loss of economy of scale.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (5 children)

    Uhh any major metropolitan area without US large area infrastructure? Also, underwater.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Cheaper to drag a cable there.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    I.. don't think you are thinking this through.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    That's how it's done all over the place though. Sure, you can probably find some niche but in general I bet electric transport is better.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    The entire global military aparatas, from mobile headquarters, in-country bases, and submarines, is hardly a niche. And no, that's also not how it's done all over the world, that's how it's done in modern western countries. SMRs would work very well in rocky or rainforest regions, or areas where speed of deployment is more important (kick starting a region pre-solar, or brownout coverage, for instance).

    Dont get me wrong, I'm making this point because SMRs have a place. I do believe solar should be the vast, vast majority of global energy production until something better comes along.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Well, the military have already figured it out it seems. And compared to the rest of the world it's niche IMO.

    For "poor countries", solar + batteries is better than classic nuclear, so why build SMRs that are just much more expensive and take ages to build compared to solar (except in some niche places)?

    We know how to do solar, transporting electricity etc. SMRs not so much, and they will be more expensive too. I just see absolutely no positive side for it for regular use. The nightmare having nuclear stuff all over the place is just an extra horror.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Solar has much greater potential for decentralization.

    Not when we buy all our panels from China.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    We could have had this 30 years ago. There have been improvements in the tech and manufacturing, but the main reason for the price drop has been the scale of sales.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    Wind Turbine technology has improved very marginally over the last 30 years

    What's really changed is capacity of production (and scale - these turbines are truly collosal) combined with the rapidly rising retail cost of electricity.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Marginally? Wind turbines are close to 15MW each now. 10 years ago it was more like 5-10MW. 30 years ago it was 3MW for an offshore turbine.

    You don't think that's significant progress? 5x the power. You don't think that requires improvements in technology?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (1 child)

    Wind turbines are close to 15MW each now. 10 years ago it was more like 5-10MW. 30 years ago it was 3MW for an offshore turbine.

    That's almost entirely been due to size increases.

    The average new build rotor in the US is 133 meters, 5x the size of 90s era standard blades

    You don’t think that’s significant progress? 5x the power.

    Biggest Blades = More Energy

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