I don't like spending this much time arguing against campism but they just keep talking at me.

A picture of Gus Friv captioned "I'm cool with communism because I don't believe it has to be authoritarian; you're cool with communism because you don't mind if its authoritarian; we are not the same."

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[–] 75 points 1 month ago* (21 children)

Can't wait for the tankies to show up and once again try to defend bootlicking.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 month ago* (19 children)
  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    There's this new invention called "planes".

    If you think it's a moral imperative, you really would have been here already and done the job.

    But no, you'll just watch Hitler from afar and post one liners

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    9 day old account with 200+ comments regularly suggesting political violence. I appreciate your effort, but you should just tag them as a troll and save your time.

    Anyone acting as if getting rid of Trump does anything is clearly not serious. Vance is Thiels little bitch and would approve company towns hour one. We're lucky we have Trump still because his incompetence is really doing us more favors than we realize. If Trump died early in his term, JD would've had a bunch of competent evil people in power and they would at least know how to properly file court documents. We're lucky Trump likes suck ups and fox new hosts more than people who can string together a sentence. JD would not make the same mistake.

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  • [+] -3 points 1 month ago (8 children)
  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Guess I’ll use my Rambo training to 360 no scope kill the prez, ezpz

    The guy you’re replying to isn’t the one acting like it’s a simple thing to assassinate the president, nor asking for it.

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  • [+] -11 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Shit posting on the internet isn't saving the world from your country's fascism.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Way to completely sidestep my point with a strawman but go off I guess.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    You say that as if 70% Americans don't already want this. Bootlicking is when one worships people like Jinping, Putin, Trump, etc. instead of wishing terrible things would happen to them. That's the difference between tankies and normal people.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Utterly disagree with your 70% contention. If anything its the exact opposite.

    Also do you really think Americans are any different than those who live under Putin? Or do you think just like the vast majority of Russians do Americans keep their head down during the day and in private in their heads and on anonymous message boards, they make wishes. Wishes that don't mean anything. That's why they're called wishes.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    30% of Americans are MAGA.

    The rest found want as far off this ride and as far left as we can go, and we want it democraticly so those MAGA fucks don’t try to civil war us

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    70% want America as far left as we can go? I mean come on. You must know even at your most outrageously optimistic hopeful self that that's nonsense. A lot of us could certainly wish it were true, but you'd have to be as high as a kite to think it is.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    I'm not pulling the number out of my ass. That is Trump's actual disapproval percentage.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    That's my point though. Disapproval on a poll is a big fucking difference from action. That's the difference between loyal opposition and actual opposition. Just because 70% disapprove doesn't mean 70% actually want to do anything much less will.

    Edit: Hell 70% won't even vote against it.

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    [–] 38 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (21 children)

    Idk what communist movement you think is going to emerge pristine out of this horrific, traumatizing, wasteland of human suffering without being wrong in really terrible ways.

    A socialist or anti-imperialist movement does not have to be morally correct for me to back them. Class struggle does not have to be led by good people to succeed, they don't have to have a correct interpretation of Marxism or be Marxist at all, they don't have to not have corruption, and they will almost always carry reactionary baggage. In a lot of situations (almost universally) it's not realistic or possible at all for a resistance to capitalist exploitation, colonialism or imperialism to exist without all of those problems and more, but doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. If they're opposing capitalism, even if they're doing it badly, they deserve support.

    Also, yes, MLs shouldn't do apologia for the things the USSR did or other socialisms did, they should state the truth clearly without discomfort. I'm kinda disillusioned with ML spaces on the internet, actually, because they really suck. It's like a game to some people; a game about being right and not caring about fucking anything. It puts me off when I see like uncritical support of past socialisms as if they were perfect, which is impossible, and you'll always end up being disappointed, which is the one of the points of this whole message, but it only serves to make them look like atrocity-denying historical revisionists to other people. Like the Soviets really did deport Tatars in trains, and really didn't work to correct the colonialist past they inherited from the Russian Empire.

    However, the dissolution of the USSR and the throwing of its people to the wolves of finance capital was a humanitarian catastrophe for Eastern Europe and created a situation that even now is actually sickening to think about, and I don't know at all how or when things will recover and get better for people there. It put into motion the fucking tragedy that is happening now in Ukraine plus all of the unseen suffering in the poor regions of what was the Eastern Bloc. The ex-Soviet countries are are perfect example of what losing looks like.

    Like I'm sure there are lurid, real crimes that Hamas, or Iran, or Ansar Allah committed, but I hope to god they don't lose, because they're fighting against the IDF and the American military and all of the bad things that the resistance has done cannot hold a candle to what the US and Israel have done. That's how I feel about resistance to capital.

    Like you've gotta understand historical materialism and a lot more than just that, you have to keep trying to understand things for years to be good communist. I'm not a good communist. If you approach politics with the goal of having the correct hot takes, you'll never want to understand anything. Just stop making hot takes, and look at the world.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Thanks for sharing this perspective.

    As a baby leftist, I don't want to fall into the traps of others when it comes to heralding the goods of past socialist experiments without criticizing the ills as well.

    Nothing is perfect, as you say, and it a materialist socialists' life long project to see the world clearly for all the material conditions that exist, and have existed up until this point. Idealist socialists and idealist communists will capsize their entire movement, and endlessly make things about purity tests.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    The words "purity tests" sets off my liberal detector, because of accusations of "purity testing" being used to defend Democratic party entryism and terrible DSA candidates from criticism.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The words "purity tests" sets off my liberal detector, because of accusations of "purity testing" being used

    Outside of any liberal usage, you have to acknowledge the phenomenon of leftist purity testing, especially on Lemmy. It's part of what makes the ML spaces so unsavory.

    defend Democratic party entryism and terrible DSA candidates from criticism.

    I mean,

    A socialist or anti-imperialist movement does not have to be morally correct for me to back them.

    Even the terrible DSA candidates are DSA candidates, and so far as socialist movements go they have the absolute advantage of popularity right now. I'm really, really tired of publicly glazing Democrats because the general class consciousness is so low that slowing the bleeding is the best we can get electorally.

    I would be absolutely chuffed if terrible DSA candidates displaced terrible DNC candidates, because at the very least it puts "Socialist" in the general public awareness, and lowers the barrier for decent DSA candidates. And the DSA is a better class of lesser evil overall. And the better the lesser evil, the more effective my dual power is going to be.

    Which is to say, purity testing is a real problem, and you don't have to be a liberal to recognize that any proper leftist movement is going to need to engage the actual proletariat, and most of those guys are tribalistic dummies.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The DSA cannot at all be compared to the groups I was talking about because they fail at one of the main requirements, to be an anti-imperialist movement, their candidates have like backed out from every meaningful thing. They are not really "democratic socialists" they are closer to social democrats.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    Not really? The official DSA platform includes dissolving the Senate. The movement itself is pretty anti-imperialist, even if individual candidates have to waffle a bit to get elected by the tribalistic dummies.

    Still though, a better class of lesser evil than the DNC in any case, that can't be denied. I haven't seen a significant level of "backing out", and certainly not from every meaningful thing. Until class consciousness attains a level to make more direct means practical, I'd rather shill for a lesser evil that sucks a bit less. DSA > DNC, even if both are a far cry from a proper International.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    It is possible. We had socialist consenus not that long ago :/ The only possible way to achieve at least near-socialist system is democratic. If the system does not directly represent views of their citizens, eventually you get oligarchic corpocracy with planned economy, that will crush all the nations beneath their boots. Furthermore: Bolsheviks were fucking extremists. When post-revolution parliament was established, and parties ran for seats, the majority of votes were Social-Revolutionaries, bolsheviks didnt have nearly as much votes. But then bolsheviks just shut down the parliament because they lost, and put their opponents in jail or even executed. So much for the people's republic ig.

    Instead, we need to actually get support in southeen countries, fight US hegemony and get votes in european countries, but this time hwlping global south first would be priority, so the european and us capitalists couldnt move their capital to poorer parts of the world and thus destroy the socialist consensus.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

    What is "socialist consensus?" What are these words? "Oligarchic corpocracy?" "Social Revolutionaries?" Are you talking about the Mensheviks? Is this some kind of social democratic stroke?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (9 children)

    The fact you have no idea who social-revolutionaries are, means you gave a huge rant about your views, meanwhile having no idea how the most important socialist revolution went. Or even such a simple thing like socialist democratic consensus of pre-60s Congratulations you are a fucking tankie. And I dont get paid to explain history to americans. May your extremist pseudosocialist brainrot mythology stay with you

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    The SRs supported the Whites during the Russian Civil War of 1917–1922, but the White movement's anti-socialist leadership increasingly marginalized and ultimately purged them.

    Seems like a very successful political ideology right there.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (7 children)

    The Socialist Revolutionary Party, the ones who supported the provisional government originally? And who supported the white army? I didn't think it was possible anyone supported them in 2026.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    "Hey gemini, pls tldr history of social-revolutionaries". Just shut up and dont embarass yourself. Dont try to narrow my original answer and read the wikipedia at least.

    With every answer Im more and more convinced you live in american suburb or some.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I thought you were talking about some mythical social democrats or something, based on your language and talking about votes in European countries. My brain turned off after I read the words oligarchic corpocracy. I thought you were a garden variety rad-lib. First person I've known who supports the SRs it didn't even register in my brain.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    What I meant is that bolsheviks were not popular nor they ever represented people of russia. And you still cant bother to read how the revolution went. Any totalitarian 'socialist' regime is not socialist, it is purely oligarchic corporcracy. Why corpocracy? Because both USSR and China busted worker unions, had hilarious elections, prevented regular people from becoming politicans or have any say. And ensured only their oligarchic circle could get to power. How is this different from authoritarian capitalist corporacy? Corporations also have planned economy, they also bust their worker union, and they also keep their people in fright of the state machine.

    This kind of system is just as far from socialism as a late-stage capitalist state, and serves capitalists and imperialists.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    What the fuck? The Bolsheviks were incredibly popular, especially in the cities, which led to them leading the socialist revolution as the vanguard.

    Why do liberals love their anti-communist historical revisionism so much?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Delusional tankie got raged about the truth about bolsheviks being extremists and not nearly as popular on the formal and fair elections. So they casted the "LIBERAL!!!" spell. So much for tankie brainrot mythology ig :/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constituent_Assembly

    Referring to being popular in cities is also funny, because at that moment like 80-90% of russians lived in villages far far away.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    Also their popularity in the countryside suffered only really due to them collectivizing the land after passing a land reform that created a owning farmers class out of a population of feudal serfs, who obviously had the interest of holding on to that newly found land ownership the Bolsheviks granted them.

    Before they took over, more than 75% of the population couldn't even read, so how would they be able to think for themselves and be mobilized by a party whose main organ is a newspaper?

    But what am I even doing here, you obviously don't know your history and are not interested in learning.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago

    Literally do not care if they weren't popular or didn't have elections. It was necessary that they suppressed the SRs, because democratic socialists are idealists who will run you into the ground. The majority of Russians were antisemitic, does that mean that's just fine?

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    Yep, I agree with all of that.

    I'm not sure if you're into this sort of thing, but I'm working with some friends on a tabletop game jam that we're planning to run (online) over a weekend some time early next year about stories set in the midst of a future revolution. You can see the draft document into which we've been occasionally adding ideas here. Let me know if you're interested.

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  • [–] 30 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    For tankies, communism must be authoritarian, and the worst tankies will just prefer even actual fascism to "childish naivety of democracy". Technically tankies are just the leftist version of your right-wing grandpa trying to convince you to finally grow out of leftism, except they're overtly obsessed with "On authority" by Friedrich Engels.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I hate being told I'm not socialist for wanting coöperative ownership and a coöp commonwealth economy, but that they are real the "real" socialists when they just want state owned corporations.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Because then the workers are just owned by capital when the point of the economy is still to create exchange value.

    What happens then is the coops that pay their workers less will amass more capital than the ones that have better working conditions and push the better ones out of the market. When the goal is to generate profit, then a company that is privately owned by a capitalist class is the most efficient at doing that.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

    the leftist version

    Are they leftists, though? They call themselves leftists, sure, but if it walks like a duck...

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Yeah. I dont know exactly what I would call them but the German "far"-"left" splinter party BSW just supported the actually far-right party AFD in voting for the first far-right state governor since the Nazi era... that's not exactly behavior that anybody would seriously consider left.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 month ago (36 children)

    If you value any economic system above democracy, you'll end up being authoritarian no matter what your preferred system is.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    You call this a democracy? The entire system is built to extract wealth from the working class

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Call what democracy? I didn't post about any place in particular. But no, the US is not a healthy democracy if that's what you are getting at.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Yeah, but "democracy" looks exactly like western liberal democracy, right? Multiple parties and uses some European country as an example? All third world countries are dictatorships and should bow down to the superior ways of their white overlords? Or they just don't know what real democracy looks like and they're misled by Islam or something? Real democracy is a racist as fuck country like Finland, that has de-industrialized, has an economy of basically only consumers, exports nothing and imports everything from the global south that carries the social and environmental burden of actually producing everything? Democratic socialism seems to only be for the imperial core, the rest of the world is just too backwards to understand it, I guess.

    (These are rhetorical questions, I know it's not what you sound like, but it's what it seems like all of you people are implying with pretend civility.)

    If you don't both-sides the genocide of Palestinians or the war on Iran, by bringing up that they aren't democratic systems of government so that somehow makes them deserve getting bombed more than if they were. (If you do, then I just don't have to talk to you.) If you can believe that, than you do actually believe that the struggle against imperialism matters more than the ideals of democracy.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago* (32 children)

    How do you justify democracy when people are voting for life to be worse instead of better, even to the point of undermining the democratic process itself? Sure we could argue at some point democracy had the effect of improving living conditions but should we expect that to be true forever in all circumstances?

    I dont believe that democracy is valuable as an end unto itself, it is a tool that should serve its people and if it stops doing that we shouldn't be dogmatic about it. Authoritarian systems certainly arent the way, and I would guess what we need doesnt even have a name yet.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    Democracy works, the problem is we don’t have a true democracy. We have corporate capitalist democracy. It’s a system that makes most people think it’s democracy — but it’s not.

    Democracy and capitalism can not exist in the same stratosphere if democracy is to succeed.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    The conditions under which democracy works are well understood.

    You need a populace educated on how the society and government works at least in its broad strokes. That education should also instill a preference for democracy and describe the pitfalls of other systems.

    An independent media system to keep the voter base reasonably informed.

    Systems in place to prevent corruption.

    Every single one of these have been eroded over 1-2 generations by crony capitalism to enable wealth accumulation.

    I would not say that democracy in the US is a reasonable example of what democracy can look like. It is what happens when democracy is being deliberately sabotaged.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    You're missing the most crucial element of all, the class that makes up the majority of society should be the ones running and controlling the state and the commanding heights of the economy. If you have a small ruling class, as it exists in every single capitalist country, this class will bend whatever democratic institutions exist on paper to suit their whims. Any "independent media" will be flooded with media dominated by them. Education will be twisted to value capitalism. It isn't that "crony capitalism" eroded democracy, it's that bourgeois democracy has never and can never represent the working class.

    For democracy to even exist, the workers must run and own the state and the commanding heights of the economy at a minimum.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You also need a fully open and transparent government, any information being classified top secret or anything of the sort means you cannot have a democracy. No secrets can be allowed, ever. And really the only way to reasonably guarantee stuff like that is to make officials surrender all privacy related rights for life, just permanent publicly open insight into every aspect of your life, past, present, and future if you want to pursue office. I'd argue for attaching 24/7 live streamed cameras to them during their time in office as well. Obviously this would only currently work for rich countries with obscene military expenditures, like the US, but if the big guys were to do it then it would eventually be safe enough for the rest of them.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    This seems extreme. I agree with more transparency of politicians, but I don't see our current problems as stemming directly from the fact that our military has top secret information and an intelligence service.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    Democracy works

    Citation needed

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (10 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    There has never been a democracy, so we don't know if it works or not. Democracy is an ideal state. We all live under a dictatorship of capital.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I mean small bits of democracy exist everywhere. Charity groups often work as a democracy. The youth organization I was in as a kid operated as a great democracy.

    There are little democratic groups all over the world working just fine. It’s the large scale corporate hellscape that keeps it from working for us as a whole.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    But just saying out of hand "democracy works" is not a fact, it is an unproven assertion. Some charity groups work, most do not. Many charity groups like the largest vegan group DXE have SA charges among the leadership. Youth organizations collapse all the time. If democracy works then how come democratic countries elect authoritarians and fascists like the Republicans in US or Nazi's or even AFD in Germany? How come democratic countries elect people like Boris Johnson, Marie Le Pen, Bolsonaro, and Sanae Takaichi? Citation needed is just that, I'd like to know where these democratic nations and organizations that exist that actually work. Doesn't seem like it works to me. Sounds nice in theory but I wouldn't say it "works" and clearly if we just assume out of hand that it does, we'll just keep repeating the mistakes that make it not work.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Idealist philosophy is the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity. Just totally decouple your goals from actual reality, and make zero plans on how to get there, then critique movements that fail to measure up to your pie in the sky. You see, actually achieving things is secondary to these people, what REALLY MATTERS is looking like a good person when you're doing it. "They don't want power, they just want to endlessly critique power."

    The ruling class has put in place a system that is impossible to change without doing horrible, violent, and socially unacceptable things, that is why it's so stable.

    I really wished we lived in this world where convincing people of your ideas was enough to bring systemic change, it just won't for some things.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Amerikkkan politician in the gif, lmao.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Elections are not democratic because the candidates are always elites of some form. Even with universal sufferage and an egalitarian society there will always be a selection bias towards people who want power and people who are good at winning elections (but not necessarily good at governing). A real democracy would have election by lottery to ensure every segment of the population was represented. This hasn't ever existed because past governments who elected by lottery (e.g. Ancient Athens) had only a small percentage of society represented as citizens.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    After I found out about Lottery Democracy, everything clicked into place. I can finally have a true political goal that I can actually see working. Easy to convince people too, if people just watched the Lottery Democracy video from Spectacles.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I'll check it out, thanks. I always just think about the way my academic department is organized as an example. There's a rotating chair, and nobody wants to do it because it's a bunch of bureacratic bullshit, but people do their time and then go back to getting actual work done. This is how politics should be.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago*

    Pointing out the flaws in some democracies is not a great argument when every other system is so clearly inferior. To answer your question, democracy requires a culture that supports it. It won't work everywhere and it doesn't work overnight.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (8 children)

    How do you justify democracy when people are voting for life to be worse instead of better

    How are you determining "better" and "worse"? In most cases, there's no way of knowing what is "better" or "worse" sub species aeterinatis, because most government decisions are not optimizing a single parameter, and are instead making a judgement call by choosing one of multiple options from a Pareto frontier. With democracy, the people get what the majority of people want. Majority rule is better than minority rule.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Bourgeois democracy is minority rule tho, I want a democracy where money doesn't have a voice

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago* (6 children)

    There's a big difference between the ideal democracy and the bastardization of a democratic process we have in America, much like how Marx's vision of communism is hugely different from any actual communist implementation. I personally don't believe that any one governing/socioeconomic system taken in a vacuum is the right answer, they all seem to rely on humans being fundamentally good-natured but it just isn't true for much of the humans attracted to positions of power.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    an ideal democracy would be a democracy where the people have power, as opposed to one where money rules. such is the case in the fake 'democracies' under capitalism. it's not just america and it's nothing to do with humans needing to be 'good natured'.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    The problem is "the people" in a democracy literally just amounts to "the majority", and would thus favor the average and the interests thereof over the interests of underprivileged minorities. Can we count on the average person to be concerned about the well being of those who lack the collective power they enjoy? As of now, I would say definitely not.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    i don't think that rich people are inherently better any respecting the rights of minorities.

    the current system demonstrably does not protect minorities either.

    also the current system actively manufactures consent through media ownership and economic coercion. capital owners play a major role in that process.

    what looks like majority opinion is often manufactured preference serving capital. a democracy where people had actual material security and genuine information might produce very different majorities.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    i don’t think that rich people are inherently better any respecting the rights of minorities.

    I didn't say that though, so how about you go have this imaginary argument with someone else.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    an ideal democracy would be a democracy where the people have power, as opposed to one where money rules.

    The problem is “the people” in a democracy literally just amounts to “the majority”, and would thus favor the average and the interests thereof over the interests of underprivileged minorities.

    the way i read your point was 'the elites protect minorities from the mob' as a defense of the current system.

    do you have some alternative vision?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Marx's understanding of building communism isn't hugely different from existing communist projects, you're confusing Marx's (very vague) descriptions of higher-stage communism with what transitional socialist projects have been able to build thus-far.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I prefer Stakeholder Socialism.

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