Pavan Davuluri says the rising cost of memory is why Windows 11 will use less RAM, with work on the memory manager, WinUI 3 and WebView2.

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[–] 167 points 1 month ago (24 children)

All it took was a RAM apocalypse for Microsoft ro consider improving performance in Windows. I'm seeing brand new laptops on display being sold as Windows 11 PCs with 4GB of RAM.

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  • [–] 128 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    It's hard for the younger generation to understand, but 4 Gb of RAM is MORE than enough for 99% of tasks if your software isn't written by lazy idiots.

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  • [–] 47 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    When the Raspberry Pi 3 first came out I was shocked how much it could do with less than a gigabyte of RAM (it technically has one gig but it shares it with the GPU). Linux is ridiculously lean when packaged right.

    I have an Android tablet with four gigabytes of RAM that sometimes crashes running Firefox with multiple tabs, something the Pi somehow managed with a fraction the resources. Windows often struggled with eight gigabytes before I upgraded.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    WinXP ran quite nicely on 4GB of RAM. You could boot to the desktop in under 5 seconds if you had a solid state drive.

    All the day to day tasks someone needs to do with their computers haven't materially changed in the last twenty years since XP held the crown. In that time the speed of processors, storage, gpus, and ram has increased by literal orders of magnitude.

    And yet, somehow, things have become much shittier since then.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    Because what used to be a native application that used 200 mb of RAM now needs to be a web application built on top of a browser using 4 gb of RAM to do the exact same task.

    I will honest to God pick fucking Eclipse over VS Code every single day, because at least it runs natively.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I wish current devs would understand that I didn't buy a shitload of ram for them to waste it. I bought it so I could have a shitload of things running at the same time. I currently have like 6 applications running and I'm using 20gb of ram ffs.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    And they wish you to understand that you should be prepared to pay more for better optimised software, but you're not. If it takes significantly more time AND more experienced devs to build native applications versus webview based, the cost of building native might be as much as 5x more, but you can't raise the price and you won't get any additional sales, because people may complain, but nobody would pay extra for better performance.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    Is there some option where I can pay for an optimized version of Firefox? I certainly haven't seen it. What about windows itself?

    Nobody minded keeping things tight before ram got cheap but it's suddenly a problem now that it's expensive again?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago*

    I still remember having a 4gb of ram on win7, and it's enough for day to day tasks. The only thing that prompt me to upgrade to 8gb is games. It's not too far ago MS recommend 16gb as a baseline for win11.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    My friend bought one of those, paired with I think 64gb of EMMC storage which is basically an SD card. It couldn't browse the internet really with Edge in it's default settings. I had to disable so much crap but I got it usable with Firefox.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    It would probably run best with that really stripped down version of ChromeOS

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Nah, with 4gb you can get away with most linux distros with XFCE, and you could even do some indie gaming. Plus, using ChromeOS means you're expected to have a network connection at all times (which makes things like using office suites locally a pain).

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  • [–] 38 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Surface Pro owner asked if Microsoft would improve memory consumption, since they had to disable on-device AI services just to run a local model.

    A cynic would say that customers disabling Copilot is finally what forced Microsoft's hand.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I disable every single new feature from all non Foss vendors. Theyre ALWAYS shit. 99% of the time its a shitty ui change for no reason and now shitty ai thats useless for no reason.

    Whatever happened to good software. They all went to Foss lol

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Publicly traded company shareholders, baby!

    Any project worth its salt is privately held or FOSS lol

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    That's why Valve/Steam holds the line. People think public corporations can choose not to be evil; they legally can, but it's practically impossible. That's why we need strong government and regulation.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Hang on, how many surface pro owners are trying to run a local model i.e. local LLM on 8GB ram? I've got 32gb ram and it struggles with most larger models

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  • [–] 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    The effect is that OEMs are bringing 8GB laptops back, and hopefully, Windows 11 won’t choke on it.

    8GB of RAM: the gift that keeps on giving. In 2005, you were basically running a supercomputer. By 2015, you were... still doing fine, honestly. Fast forward to 2025 and your machine is wheezing like it just climbed five flights of stairs while Chrome is open. But wait—2026 rolls around and suddenly 8GB is back to being acceptable again because everyone finally realized Electron apps were a mistake and went back to native development. Just kidding, we're all doomed. Your IDE alone needs 12GB now.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    For the whole system, or just the spyware part?

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  • [–] 31 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    Some devs in the big corpos got spoiled with so much memory, with feature creep they managed to bloat up once reliable programs.

    In 1994 and when I began compsci, I remember how memory and bandwidth conservation was then taken so seriously, where performance was a high consideration over eyecandy (at the time, PCs were still 386s, 486s and some Pentiums coming out, and most I used had either 1mb or 4mb of memory available). That I once got hold of Creating Killer Websites (yeah, that book), which included a section on how to slim down images to make them download faster, as at the time nearly everyone were on dialup. Videogames were then equally small, they were mostly sprite-based and were easily fit into a CDROM, as other games had basic vector graphics and low-resolution texturing.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago

    which included a section on how to slim down images to make them download faster, as at the time nearly everyone were on dialup

    I'm looking at you, lemmy sidebar header images that don't get scaled down after uploading and are often > 5 Mb.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    Yeah any time you hear devs saying “developer productivity “ you can associate the software they produce with higher ram usage, larger footprint, slower and doesn’t work unless your internet is fast.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Great now remove the motherfucking tracking ID

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  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago

    Or maybe create GUIs without a webbrowser underneath again? Or are your students not capable of anything but web tech?

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago*

    All part of the goal of turning personal computing into cable TV by making everything web app SASS.

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  • [–] 59 points 1 month ago* (7 children)

    i got my windows install down to 0 RAM by using Linux.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Blindly deleting windows partitions while installing Linux because you know with 100% certainty that there is nothing of value on them always feels good.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    i used to work in IT and I would explain to people the only documents or files of any value are the ones they themselves generate, because that means they are unique. Also the first rule of infosec is redundancy.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

    I recently had to configure an older Thinkpad X1 Carbon G8 for my little brother. It's only got 8GB of RAM unfortunately and he needs Windows.

    So I installed Windows 11 IoT LTSC like I usually do, installed all necessary drivers and manually deactivated services that don't need to run. It still uses 3GB of RAM while idling.

    My 2-year-old daily driver Manjaro install uses half of that, and that's on a system with 32GB RAM where Windows would almost certainly use more just because there's more

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  • [+] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (8 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    10 is EOL, so I wouldn't use it anymore tbh

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    10 still receives free updates, LTSC will have support for some time after and IOT I think until 2030.

    But Debian will work in a fucking toaster for the next forever, so there's that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    The thing is those are just security updates, most software will work for the time being, but it only been a year and some newer DX12 games already having issues with 10 unfortunately.

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    [–] 15 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    My Windows 2000 machine had 512MB of RAM. With it I could browse the web, run full-featured word processors, scan images, edit images, play 3D games, edit / compile / debug C and C++ programs, and so on.

    If memory serves, my office machine about that time only had 128MB of RAM. It was slower, but it could do just about all of that stuff, too.

    I'm not sure there are any broad categories of tasks I use computers for today that I wasn't already using my Windows 2000 machine for back in 2001 or so.

    It's hard to fathom where all the RAM in modern systems goes. A million somethings is a lot. A million bytes is a huge amount of information. War And Peace is under four million characters.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    This is why it is (often) so important that a new generation takes over. They haven't experienced this as we did. They mostly don't know.

    So every new generation is a new opportunity to pull off this shit.

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  • [+] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Hibernation was useful when people shut down their machines (like, actually shut down, not sleep) and getting any process started was a slow ordeal. Nowadays you don't really turn your computer off anyway. Windows doesn't by default, at least. Newer laptops often don't even support real sleep, you're expected to keep them running 24/7.

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    [–] 14 points 1 month ago

    „We bought all the RAM and will rent it back to you later.“ -„AI“ companies

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  • [–] 52 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Bullshit, Windows 11 uses more ram than any other OS I know of. It idles an entire gigabyte higher than Windows 10, it's still worse than MacOS although close, and it's nowhere close to Linux Gnome, Headless, or even KDE Plasma.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Yes, Windows 11 uses a lot of memory now. The point is that they're working on making it use less.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago

    Yes I understood that but I am arguing against the implication they made when they chose this specific language and connotation, so I am insinuating that it will still use more than every other OS unless they gutt all the adware and spyware.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago*

    “unused ram is wasted ram” is only valid when that memory is buffer/cache. Except the windows UI isn’t allocating excessive buffers or cache that can be freed under memory pressure or when an application needs it. It’s allocating actual memory pages for the JS rendering engine and other bloated vibecoded services.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, Windows has a lot of auto-loading bloatware that Microsoft could cut, but I really doubt they'll actually have the balls to cut any of it.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    As AI, cloud-native development, containers, and open-source ecosystems continue to converge on Linux

    When the VP Windows Platform is telling things like that, it's time to let it die already...

    [ ] Source

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Sure, I'm going to start running my containers using WSL. Who knows what kind of wonderful surprises are in store in the network layer? How the environment parameter passing will be somewhat more brittle with funky new ways to break because of new characters you have to escape? I can't wait to troubleshoot all of that, and spend countless hours on MS forums and meet fellow colleagues with similar issues. What fun.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    dude, windows uses paging even if it has a free bank of memory to use...i've seen it with my own eyes...it's a complete trash OS...swaps like nobody's business

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    If you've eg. a system service that allocated a whole pile of memory on startup, but hasn't read or wrote it since, then copying it to swap during idle disk time is a good thing. If it does get used, then it's still in RAM, and if memory pressure increases, then you can reuse it immediately because it's already on disk, don't have to wait to swap it out. You could give this functionality a catchy name like 'swappiness' so you could fine-tune how aggressively it's done by setting the value in a file, too.

    Doesn't stop Windows being a trash OS, of course, but if I've allocated swap then I want it to be used for best system performance.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    I have swap allocated too, but if you're sitting there continually powering RAM and have a whole lot of it available (rarer these days), it doesn't make a lot of sense to throw all of your running programs into it when there's no current memory pressure. It degrades performance needlessly.

    I love how little linux swaps with a large amount of RAM. I was one of those fortunate enough to buy computers with large amounts of RAM before the rampocalypse occurred. So I have 64gb in this laptop, and I want it to be used.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago

    https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-tries-to-install-movie-maker

    This was in my feed today. 23 years old. Nothing improved. But sure, windows will use less ram 😹

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    It will just hammer your ssd/hdd page file instead.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago

    Haven’t we seen this movie from Microsoft before ?

    Let’s put out some press releases and then do nothing. It will be old news soon and no one will notice

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