A20 Pro vs Intel Ultra 7 Series 3

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[–] 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

I hope everyone reading this realizes that score chart is misleading at best.

They failed to point out clearly in the posted image in OP that the scores are for burst compute. As in, if the chip sustained that workload for more than a few seconds it would fry itself.

Taken out of context, everything can be impressive. That title is really, really misleading.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    They're also comparing arm to x86. Both can do exceptionally well in specific category. I still remember how disappointed I was initially in M chips because of advertisement like "FASTEST CHIP THERE IS, BEATS ALL INTELS", but then I try to play the only cross platform game I know (Minecraft) and it plays worse than on a decade+ older Intel CPU.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I had no idea. What makes that difference? On a quick read M chips don't like OpenGL but I doubt that's it.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    From what I've heard, the GPU in the M-series chips are just scaled-up PowerVR derived GPU, with some of the greatest limitations being carried over.

    Also the CPU is more optimized for parallel-processing, and many games are still seldom optimized for that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    The quick takeaway is ARM and x86 solvers eachothers problems and now are trying to catch up. ARM is much more power efficient than x86, and x86 handles powerful sustained workloads faster. So now Intel is trying to make x86 more efficient and Apple is trying to alike ARM more powerful.

    It’s much easier to make efficient hardware powerful than it is to make powerful hardware efficient. So while both sides are improving, apples results are more dramatic and noticeable.

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  • [–] 158 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    All of this performance is wasted on Apple's closed hardware and OS. What a shame.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (12 children)

    More cats in my dwarf fortress are never wasted.

    Honestly, DF was the last time i thought about single core performance.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I think Minecraft is single-threaded

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    Hasn’t really been for years, and minecraft isn’t a terribly hard game to run anymore anyway.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (7 children)

    With the new vibrant visuals and ray tracing features on bedrock, midrange devices cannot keep up.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Those are both GPU-dependent, and certainly not single-threaded.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Not sure, if it is a GPU problem only then it will just be FPS drops. But for my case, the game freezes at specific intervals and doesn't do any thing even if I tap anywhere on the screen. It may sometimes be even playing (the graphics) but I can't change items, probably because the CPU cannot handle something somewhere.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I don´t know what that total freeze is about, but I suspect it's something other than being behind on processing instructions. Does it only happen in wide open areas where you can see to the horizon? That's the only time Minecraft used to get laggy for me and I´d lower the draw distance and it would be better.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MinecraftBedrockers/comments/1vqgjgy/is_anyone_else_experiencing_stutters_with_vibrant/

    Unfortunately i have to link to reddit but as you can see, the GPU can handle the graphics. But if you do a certain action like switch an item, the game freezes. I think this could be due to a CPU spike.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    On the iPhone, sure, but it would be equally wasted on Android phones because who needs this much performance in a phone anyway. However, I expect them to also use it in next year's Macbook Neo, which is a surprisingly capable laptop for its price with even the A18 Pro chip. It also bodes well for the next generation of their M series chips if the A20 Pro is this fast... and there are TONS of people using Macs for real work. Code compilation in particular got super fast with the M1 Pro and I believe it's great for creative applications too, though I haven't really used those much myself. Creatives types gravitated towards MacOS even before Apple Silicon, especially video editors because of Final Cut Pro.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    It's also unfortunate timing. The most valued chips these days are the ones with high parallelism, for AI performance. If Apple turned its eye to GPUs, maybe they could challenge Nvidia.

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  • [–] 170 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    It's honestly amazing what these chips can do.

    Unfortunately it's stuck behind the Apple ecosystem.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] 50 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Apple will fight it with everything they can. Latest MacOS27 hides linux partitions from the bootpicker so it is blocked in firmware.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    The comparison that matters is always left out. Computing performance by dollar cost.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    It does matter but performance per currency alone is also kinda shit of a metric too. Might point you towards getting like 50 atom CPUs but then good luck finding memory for all of them to do anything useful.

    Better to show performance between each and then list the cost to let the user decide if it is worth it. Make your charts between hardware in set price ranges is also pretty good.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Even higher, since those Apple silicon chips are very efficient.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    You misread. OP mentioned price/performance, and I think you're referring to performance/watt.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Oh, you mean the upfront price per chip, not the operating cost. Funny enough, the A20 chips are no more expensive (and possibly cheaper) than their Intel and AMD counterparts. The main issue is that the A20 is locked inside an iPhone, which is overpriced.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    They probably optimize for the benchmark.. It's not uncommon

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The benchmark itself measures burst compute.

    For any sort of sustained workload it's nowhere near laptops, let alone near desktops.

    The whole post, and especially the title and image, are misleading.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    It generally is with Apple

    I used to sell their gear, and there was always a lot of shitty comparisons and even boasts about things that existed on the competition, but they just didn't advertise it (because they had it so long)

    Like the G5 Vector computing. Turns out, instructions like SSE on intel / AMD was basically the same thing. They just didn't brag about it anymore

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    Wow you must be a real engineer drawing from your vast decades long experience. And not someone sitting on a shitter pulling words out of your ass.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    It didn't take long for more info to come out about the A20, and the suspected compromises that are being made on the iPhone: https://wccftech.com/apple-a20-solder-joint-leak-base-iphone-18-compromises/ . I also used to sell their gear for 3 years

    Pretty much every company has been busted cheating on benchmarks, including Nvidia and Intel (its easy to do, just detect the starting frames, or/and the exe). And, I spent all of last week optimising code using benchmarks (and profiling)

    On Desktop applications in particular, Apple's biggest failure has always been GPU. Which is why testers often test things like encoding (it has a chip designed to accelerate video encoding), CPU, and rarely games.

    Like my M2 Mac Studio looked awesome in benchmarks (Toms hardware did one too). They didn't test games, because if they tested things like Raytracing, they would have discovered the M2 never had raytracing built in (and, computers which cost the same price DID at the time)

    My Mac Pro looked awesome on paper too (it even needed FB ECC Dimms to work). The GPU was absolute slop compared to what PC's were shipping, which is why sites only ever seemed to test Apps...

    If someone like Steve was testing this, I'd trust it immediately. But the entire premise of the article is around 1 benchmark... And for all we know, they might have been testing against absolute crap products

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    They always do this comparison and it is always misleading. They are the first to get a processor on the new TSMC node, so of course the processor will be faster.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago*

    Okay, but that Intel CPU was part of the first family of CPUs on Intel's equivalent node (18A) too. If nothing else, it serves as an interesting Intel vs TSMC lithography comparison. Which one would expect TSMC to win anyway, but at least now we have numbers.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    They’re the first to get the fastest chips, so saying their chips are the fastest is… misleading? But also “of course” it’s true?

    I’m confused.

    I don’t think anybody was misled into thinking it meant this chip would always be the fastest on the market.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Saying the first new CPU on a new node is fastest is uninteresting from a technical standpoint, as there isn’t any competition yet, even if it is not inaccurate.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    The average consumer doesn’t care why it’s the fastest. For a time, they’ll have a faster chip than their peers. Only people on Lemmy would say “yeah but that’s only because new nm process, so it doesn’t count!”

    If the conversation is between chip manufacturers talking shop, that matters. For everyone else, it’s irrelevant.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    For even a semi-informed user, it matters. E.g. you can buy the fastest processor (in this single benchmark, which might be or not be important to you) in a Macbook Pro from Apple for $3000. But knowing that this is only because of the 2nm TSMC node that Apple got first, but Qualcomm, AMD, etc. will also get very soon (a few months), means that you probably will be able to buy an even faster chip in a laptop with Windows or Linux for $2000. Which, depending on what you plan to use the PC, might be just as viable to you.

    So I would say it IS important to users to know the facts of the situation in order to make an informed decision on their next purchase.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Wouldn't that always be the case though? If you wait until next year you will always be able to buy a faster and better computer. It will likely cost more as well. Seem like if you want the 'fastest' now, you'd buy something with the A20 pro, but hey tomorrow someone else may come out with something faster.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    No. A new node comes out in several years. At least 2-3 years and it is increasing because decreasing the node size is getting exponentially more difficult. So next node will probably only be out in 4-5 years now.

    While all the chip designers will be all out with their products on this new node within a few months. Apple was only the first because they paid extra for Tsmc to be first.

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  • [–] 81 points 1 month ago (44 children)

    And yet, it can't (be made to) run a full desktop OS or play AAA games. But you can personalise the Siri voice (older phones can do the conversational stuff)... maybe edit photos faster.

    Apple went and made a phone you could use for ten years, but next year they'll be telling you why their new phone is so much better than the last one. They don't expect you to upgrade every year, but they expect you to want to, and after a couple of generations, they want you to think that you have to.

    I have an iPhone 16 Pro Max (2024), and the 18 Pro/Max presentation definitely gave me a bit of phone envy. But I also have a Galaxy S10 (2019), and that does a few things better than the iPhone, even though it's 5 years difference between them. Apple's keyboard likes to hallucinate weird results (like changing out common words for names of people I don't even have in contacts) and edit after the fact. Gboard just works. When it doesn't, the mistake makes sense (if and of for example). Also, I've used the same wallpaper on both phones. It always looks better on the Samsung. Sharper colors and contrast. Hold both up and ask anyone which looks better, they're gonna point to the Samsung, even if you turn the iPhone's brightness up all the way.

    Phone manufacturers are desperately trying to convince you that you need the latest and greatest. You don't — unless you want to do AI stuff. And even then, they're going to charge you for it. And they're sure you'll pay, because you've already shown your hand by opening your wallet again.

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  • [+] 65 points 1 month ago (20 children)
  • [–] 39 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    I think OPs point is not that it’s unable to, is that Apple won’t let it

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    “Won't let it” by putting it in a Macbook and running MacOS on it?

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago* (11 children)

    As in you plug your phone into a monitor and it becomes a fully fledged desktop running MacOS, and you don't have to buy a 2nd device from Apple.

    Edit: Like Samsung DEX

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    Who said anything anything phones specifically? You pulled some random criterion out of your ass.

    And by this logic, Google also doesn't let you run desktop OSes on phone CPUs, because their phones don't do some random thing that you saw somewhere.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Apple intentionally limits what features iOS and 'iPadOS' have versus macOS to sell as many devices as possible. An alternate reality where Apple were consumer-friendly would converge all three operating systems into one, with a limited feature set on smaller screens that expands into the full feature set if connected to an external monitor with a docking adapter.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    And Android is as full-featured as a desktop?

    Jobs was pretty much describing iPad as what computers would be like ‘in the future’ in interviews in the eighties. It was his vision for ages. IPhones and iPads allowed more people to use computers than all desktop OSes combined.

    And again, what does this have to do with the processor? You people just jump at any opportunity to mention how you hate Apple?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    They could even sell a laptop shell that connects with the phone so you don't pay for the phone internals twice except the shell having a 2nd battery for the bigger display. The shell could then survive for an even longer time than a regular laptop as the internals keep getting upgraded via the phone instead of a whole new laptop.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You're describing the nexdeck

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago*

    That looks cool, and yes! Apple could totally do that with MacOS, and a shell with their aluminum body and track pad. I bet itd sell very well, and for more of course.

    Its cool the company is also offering a multi boot Windows / Debian mode (edit: phone) when connected.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Dex is a really neat concept, but ultimately sucks ass.

    Maybe the duo will baby step us towards that. But even iPad OS which supports this for years is rough.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    Have you tried the newer one built into AOSP yet? Is that one any better?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    It's been a year or two since I tried it last. Are current Samsung phones using dex or the AOSP one? Or does the Pixel 9a running Graphene OS support it?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    The Samsungs are still using DEX. I think only Pixels support the AOSP one right now, but it's there for other OEMS / devs to build upon. I don't know if Graphene OS supports it or not.

    Edit: I just realized, I do have a pixel 8 for development work, and the cable to run it somewhere. Maybe I can find it and give it a try.

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  • [+] 6 points 1 month ago (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    I don't really see how you can read that post and not see they were talking about phones, but you are right that the A20 Pro will almost certainly show up in a MacBook Neo successor at some point.

    Edit: And what do you think the benchmark was run on? It was a phone.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Plus, if game developers targeted ARM instead of x86, im sure their games would actually run great on those A20s, but they're probably not going to make an ARM version of their game.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I don't think triple-A is meant to run on those chips in anything but low at 1080p60. Not even double-A

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    The A20 could theoretically handle 4K gaming. Just depends on the game developer. The iPhone 18 Pro has 7 GPU cores, and it has about 12GB unified RAM to share between the CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine.

    Plus the ARM instructuin set is a bit more modern, so there is probably performance gains to be had that x86 couldnt handle

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    For any games running on phones with those A20s, they're already compiling for ARM.

    For anything that gets an official MacOS release, they're probably targeting ARM at this point and soon they'll have to. Rosetta 2 support is getting dropped next year (supposedly a limited subset of Rosetta 2 will stay around for old x86 games).

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  • Doesn’t mean anything currently running an A20 can run a desktop OS. Point still stands.

    We’ll see what the next Neo runs and how when it releases. The A18 Pro in the Neo is what’s in my phone and it’s said to be between M1 and M2.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    I have an iPhone 16 Pro Max (2024), and the 18 Pro/Max presentation definitely gave me a bit of phone envy.

    I have a 16 base… and I didn’t raise an eyebrow. What kind of app running can a 18 do that a 16 can’t, other than whatever is self inflicted with software bloat?

    A LOFIC camera would have gotten me interested, but they didn’t ship that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Battery life is the only thing I’m interested in. Not only does the 18 perform great, but it gets insane battery too.

    I’m not buying it because no SIM card slot, but it does have me interested.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I think physical SIM slots are probably done for, why add more hardware that is "unnecessary" now?

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  • Because not all carriers easily support esim. Last I was in Costa Rica maybe 1 carrier supported esim for prepaid lines, but will the employee at the store know how to set that up? Physical sim? Yeah, they'll do it in a minute or two. I guess the 18 will force them to learn, but in some fuck ass small town how many people are rocking an iphone 18 and a prepaid line?

    I'd love to get a phone that supports mmwave 5g, but the freedom of physical sim is well worth it. Also I spent a fuck ton importing this 15 pro, I'm not just chucking it willy nilly.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    This does indeed get better every generation.

    I suppose the 16 hit the point of diminishing returns, for me. It lasts all day, even when busy on vacation or something, though I acknowledge that’s entirely dependent on one’s usage.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I got an S22+ in 2022, I bought the flagship thinking I'd keep it for at least five years. As far as I can tell there is still next to no reason to upgrade.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Your only real reason to upgrade if the phone is still perfectly good is that you'll stop getting security updates in 5 months (at least that's how it's been scheduled by Samsung). A shame because any 2022 flagship is bound to still have solid performance for pretty much any use case I could think of (except maybe high-end games? Who runs those on a phone anyway?)

    You'd possibly get an extra year or 2 likely next time with an iPhone (historically longest major version support + sometimes abnormally long security update support, the 2015 iPhone 6s still got security updates until May this year), but there's no guarantee and if you prefer Android, Samsung's up to 7 years of promised security updates now for the latest flagships, as is Pixel and if you're on a popular model unlockable phone, you can go way beyond that with custom ROMs. Samsung doesn't allow unlocking all of their phones, but if yours is unlockable, you may yet use it for several more years if you so desire. Phones are pretty damn expensive, even moreso now, custom ROMs are great to further increase device lifespan if you can use them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    My wife has an S22. Literally the only problem is the lack of storage. Losing the memory card slot was a mistake. My S10 is her old one. I stuck a 256GB SD card in it and now it has whatever that plus 128GB is. It’s the second most spacious phone I’ve used after my 512GB iPhone.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    The move was to self-host storage. I moved my drive backups to a NAS and now it doesn't matter how much storage the phone has. It can send anything I want to conserve or fetch whatever I need to use. It is a phone, it's biggest strength is mobile connectivity, so it doesn't need to have all the storage on device. Plus I can upgrade the NAS as needed and use it for other stuff.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I would be so much more interested in phones if I could run Debian on them. Check out my proxmox server rack, its a pile of every phone I could acquire from friends throwing out old phones! Between them they run 20 factorio servers with clusterio.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    Apple's keyboard likes to hallucinate weird results (like changing out common words for names of people I don't even have in contacts) and edit after the fact.

    Never seen that on any of the iPhones in my family, and never heard of that happening on any of my friend’s iPhones despite being the usual tech help contact for them. And this is going back to 2012.

    Maybe take it to a Genius Bar and have them correct whatever strange problem that is.

    Because that kind of behaviour is extremely unusual.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I had this issue during the very short time I had AI enabled on my iPhone. Autocorrect went INSANE. It was miserable.

    I turned AI features all off and autocorrect went back to being serviceable; I don’t have any issues now other than typing on a screen sucks compared to a physical keyboard.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    I had AI enabled on my iPhone.

    Oooohhhh… maybe that’s where the problem is coming from.

    I work in pretty much all sectors of IT, and while I am cautiously optimistic about AI, it was a steaming pile of bullshit when it was first included and it’s still largely unusable/untrustable now. So I have always had it turned firmly OFF for myself, my family, and strongly recommended it for everyone else I helped.

    Besides, I’ve noticed that not many people outside of the techbro scene actually want AI. It’s invariably crammed down their howling piehole without their desire or consent.

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  • Kinda unrelated, but ive had issues with the google keyboard doing things like me typing the word four, and autocorrect deciding I wanted to write your or hour or similarly close word before and replacing it as I move onto the next word. Drives me nuts when it happens.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    As someone forced to use a spare iPhone for WhatsApp because they flagged my account and I can't use it on my GrapheneOS phone..... That iOS keyboard is an absolute, borderline unusable, piece of shit. That "feature" where tapping the top bar scrolls you up can absolutely go eat shit as well. How is that a feature on a phone that puts the back button right below that functionality??? I ALWAYS scroll up first before tapping out of a chat on WhatsApp, its unbelievably infuriating UX.

    The hardware could be a miraculous tech from a utopian future but if it runs proprietary apple software I really couldn't care less.

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  • Tapping the top to go up was great in Apollo, a Reddit client, but the guy took it a step further, tap again to go right back to where you were. Otherwise agree, it's a good idea but it's not explained (at all) and it can get in the way.

    I got you beat though: by default, iPhone has a feature called "shake to undo". It's very sensitive. One of the first things I disabled. I mean you hit a speed bump (as a passenger) and everything you typed is just gone.

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