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[–] 229 points 1 month ago (67 children)

One nice thing about English, it will lexical borrow from you in an instant.

We just love new ways to say old boring stuff.

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  • [–] 131 points 1 month ago (52 children)

    I have been saying it for years, English is a very informal and open language, have fun with it. Sky water is not technically a wrong way to refer to rain, liquid laundry soup is absolutely a sauce for your laundry, dish bricks, day star, the list goes on

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  • [–] 87 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    I think this is one of the reasons why English (or it's descendants) will forever be the international language of trade. If it's not your first language, it's damn difficult to make yourself sound like a native speaker, but it's damn easy to make yourself understood.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I think you're confusing a reasonably short period in recent history with "forever".

    In History there were quite a lot of "international languages of trade" other than English. It seems to depend very much on which nations were the top empire of the age and because the last two top empires were English-speaking countries (first Britain, then after that the United States), the English language has been dominant as a second language for a over a century now, but before that the English language already existed in a form very similar to the modern form and yet it wasn't at all an "international language of trade" (in fact, at least in Europe, before English it was French that was the dominant language of trade).

    I bet that the next "international language of trade" will be Chinese.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    By saying forever they're talking about the future, not the past.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    A forecast not backed by anything other than wishful thinking and which runs counter everything that has always happened.

    Claiming that English will forever be the "international language of trade" is like putting up a statue and under it the message: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!""

    More in general, nothing lasts forever.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You can't really look at past examples now that globalization is a thing. An ubiquitous language wasn't really possible before then.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago*

    You see, I don't even have to show any evidence of anything, it's those who are claiming that "This time is different" and that this specific trading language, right now specifically (by an amazing coincidence, right when they live and make said claim, never before and - given that claim being "forever" and "global" - logically never again for a different one) will, unlike all trade languages before hold that position and endure, not just 100 years, not just 1000 years, but "forever".

    Such a huge, massive, gigantic forecast needs equally huge, massive, gigantic proof.

    So far, against that theory we have History, not just of trading languages but of languages themselves and nations showing that until none of those things lasts forever. On the side in favor of it we have ... *crickets*

    That whole forecast stinks of jingoism and ignorance.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    On the flip side, a lot of other languages have retained structures which require a detailed knowing of grammar in part because they haven't needed to be learned by amateurs.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 month ago

    True, though I would personally count that as a bad thing. Purity of language, to me is irrelevant. That opinion may be coloured by the fact that I'm a native English speaker, and there hasn't been anything resembling purity in this language for thousands of years. To me, the point of language is open communication. Any impediment to that is a negative.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago*

    I speak several languages, most of which are Romance languages (such as French and Italian) which have a specific word order which pretty close to english (though adjective come after nouns rather than before, plus there are some additional verbal times though those are uncommon to use).

    Amongst those I also speak Dutch and German, which have quite a different word order (though, curiously, Dutch from Belgium has a similar word order to French) and I constantly fuck it up (especially in German, which is the one of the two I speak worse) and the natives always understand me.

    In my experience learning two of those languages just by living there (and with people that are learning my own native language), it's using the wrong words that confuses people, then using the wrong accent (mainly by putting the emphasis in the wrong syllable) and only as a far third is word order and even that only in specific cases such expressions (where it's the whole expression as is that has a meaning, rather the meaning being a composition of the meaning of the individual words in it).

    In my experience there really is no special quality of the English language that makes it easier to understand when people use a wrong word order.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    There weren't many amateurs desiring to learn English back in eleventh—fifteenth centuries, when it was losing the remaining complexity in the grammar.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    There were a lot of native French speakers in England at that time, so a bunch of normalizing like what happened a couple hundred years earlier with the Norse meeting Anglo-Saxons

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    Idk about Vikings, but to my knowledge Normans didn't give a crap about English, speaking their language among the ruling class, and all documents were in French. This is evidenced by the fact that there's little written record of how English developed at the time. On the other hand, French was perceived as prestigious, since people had to deal with the ruling class and bureaucracy in French, thus many 'high-society' words were borrowed into English — hence typically when talking about everyday matters, the words are mostly of Germanic or Norse origin, and grandiose abstract ideas or upper-class life are French/Latin.

    It's not like trade with Normans started only after the conquest, after all.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Yes, and because of that there was a lot of interaction and blending, right up to the point where trials were required to be performed in English in the mid-14th century, then in the 15th everything was switched to English. The Peterborough Chronicle perfectly demonstrates the transition from Old English to Middle. It was written over about a hundred years (11th to 12th Century) and gradually starts incorporating French vocabulary and dropping old Germanic grammar.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Ah. I misremembered about the Peterborough Chronicle being the one switching to French because of a new French abbot.

    Still not seeing how much of it was informed by the Frenchmen wanting to learn English, though. Englishmen for sure did borrow French vocabulary, not sure about the other way around. I'm yet to learn about switching the trials to English, as I'm right at the point of Norman conquest in the 'History of English Language' podcast. =)
    Seems so far that said history was in large part dictated by political happenings.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Well, the aristocracy didn't just learn English overnight. The transition of official use over about 200 years shows them becoming more and more accepting and comfortable with it.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    I remember an interview with Lisa Kudrow in which she described her French boyfriend's failure to remember the English word for toes, and said they were foot fingers.

    English: if the people you're talking to understand what you're saying, you're ok. Even if the people you're talking to don't understand what you're saying, you're still ok. Just be fancy with your words, and everyone will like it.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    In french, that's really the name that is given to them, colloquially : doigts de pied (foot fingers)

    The real term is orteils (toes)

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    They're really good at it, too. Sometimes it's even charming. For example, potatoes are "earth apples."

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I wonder if the meaning of pomme was broader in Old French, like how meat (from mete) used to mean food in Old English.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    Yes it was the case, broadly pomme meant fruit.

    Originally tomatoes were called pommes d'amour. There is pommes de terre (potatoes) pommes de pin (pinecones). If we would translate literally pomme de pin it would give us pineapple.

    There were also other fruits beginning with pomme originally but I can't seem to recall them.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    It's the same in Dutch - "aardapple" - but using the Dutch words for earth and apple rather than the French ones.

    And don't get me started on French numbering - for example 98 is "four twenties eigtheen".

    One doesn't get it for one's own language because all the weird stuff is "normal" but when you're learning other languages you discovered they're all riddled with funny constructs like this (and then there are expressions, which are often hilarious - for example on of the Dutch expression for wasting time on small details literally translates to "fucking ants")

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Not sure what a dish brick is, but yeah, the others make sense 👍

    Edit: just figured it out: it's a Lego piece shaped like a dish

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I still like the theory that the industrial revolution kicked off in England due to the English language.

    English has an amalgam of several different root languages. This gives it an unusual amount of flexibility and granularity. This helps hugely with crystallising newer ideas into words. This, in turn gave English a slight advantage over France, Germany etc.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    You think German and French don't borrow words?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Oh they do, but the weird multi root nature of English, and it's tendency to aggressively ransack other languages for vocabulary tends to give it a little more wiggle room for describing ideas. The cost being it's evil to learn, compared to a lot of languages. Just try reading the poem "The chaos" aloud.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago*

    I speak 7 different european languages and they're all like that.

    It's not by chance that "yogurt" is pretty much the same word in just about all languages (different spelling at times, similar sounding), being originally a Turkish word, and similarly for "helicopter" which comes from the Greek, whilst all the ways to say "tea" in the whole wide world pretty much derive from just three root words - tea, cha and chai.

    My own native language - Portuguese - seems to have spread around the world for just nautical terms around sailing and pretty much nothing else which kinda makes sense since at one point when Portugal was an empire, that's the technology is developed. (Curiously the word in India for a certain kind of bread - "Pao" - derives from the Portuguese word for bread - "Pão" - probably because the Indian city of Goa was controlled by Portugal for a couple of centuries),

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    it’s tendency to aggressively ransack other languages for vocabulary

    I feel like this hasn't happened as much as people think in the last century or so, it's much more the other way around, almost every language now adds a lot of english vocabulary.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    You have a whole smörgåsbord of recent word thefts

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    the word first appeared in English in the later part of the 19th century. By the mid-20th century smorgasbord was being used outside of food-related contexts to refer to something that comprises a mixture or assemblage of different parts.

    Source

    You got anything more recent?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    German uses these two words as well, and until 5 minutes ago I didn't even know they were of Swedish origin. And it connects nicely to my original comment in this thread where I said that it's not just english that takes words from other languages and it's not something that makes english particularly special.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    This gives it an unusual amount of flexibility

    English grammar is the opposite of flexible, since it relies on word order where other languages use inflections. In Russian, you can often jumble the word order, and the meaning wouldn't change. Vocabulary of Russian was extensively borrowed from Greek, Arabic and Turkic languages in middle ages, German and French during the eighteenth-nineteenth centuries, and English in the twentieth, particularly in regard to trade, new technology, or societal developments. If you pay attention, you'll notice that a language borrows or invents words when there's a shade of meaning missing in the existing vocabulary, that is precisely represented by the new word. None of that has anything to do with the initiative in industrial development, as you may have noticed from the fact that Russia was an agrarian country into early twentieth century.

    Your idea is a form of linguistic relativity, which has only some evidence for a small subset of it.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    Ironically, same with Japanese. They have an entire alphabet dedicated to foreign words, Katakana. You want a hamburger and a beer? That's a "ハンバーガーとビール" (Hanbāgā to Biru). Coffee from Starbucks on your way to work? That's a "ドライブスルーコーヒー" (Doraibusurūkohi - a drive-thru coffee). Better fried chicken than anyone has a right to can be found at the "コンビニ" (Konbini - aka the convenience store). Learning Japanese it's rife with these borrowed words. Half the time it's "you're fucking kidding." The other half the time it's learning some insane formalism that makes saying "thank you" take five minutes.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    What's cool is how English then adds those loanwords or portmanteau back into its lexicon like karaoke or, as I'm seeing more recently, egg sando. I really love how languages do that.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Awhile back, I watched an anime about camping. It was chill, and cute, and I enjoyed it. But every time they stopped to discuss some kind of camping equipment, it was all English loan words, and it drove me a bit bonkers.

    What do you mean Japanese just straight up borrowed the phrase "ground tarp" from English??? Surely they already have words for that!

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago*

    I'm learning Korean, in South Korea they use so much English vocabulary and it's all spelled phonetically, for example table (yes they use that word) becomes 테이블 (teibeul) and then you have to pronounce it like a Korean word which always sounds a little weird. Japanese is similar, but the possible syllables in Japanese are much more limited so it ends up sounding even weirder and sometimes isn't immediately recognisable as English.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    They may have. Several Japanese words for everyday objects are taken from other languages despite having earlier words for those things. E.g. bread is pan (from Portuguese) and ball is boru (English).

    Though my personal favorite is black hole. Despite having different words for black and hole, black hole is translated as burakkuhoru

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    Sometimes it gets so ingrained into English that it feels natural.

    好久不见 (hǎo​ jiǔ ​bu ​jiàn), lit. long time no see, it's originally a Chinese phrase that became commonplace in English. Even though it doesn't quite hold up grammatically in English, no one will question it.

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  • [–] 120 points 1 month ago (1 child)
  • [–] 82 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    In Japan, if you use a word wrong, people will almost certainly not tell you so as not to embarrass you unless your mistake is sufficiently more embarrassing or insulting.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Ya, I thought they told you that your Japanese sucked by saying "your japanese is really good." And it's only when they stop commenting on the quality of your Japanese that you know you are near native levels. Even then, if you don't look ethnically Japanese they still might keep saying it, so there's really no way of knowing.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    What? Noooo, so this is how I find out!

    I studied Japanese for about 11 years. I used to work in the west end, so I'd have Japanese tourists to practise on. They'd always be like, aaah, sugeeee! And tell me how good my Japanese was. I started speaking in Kansai ben just to throw them off and it always made them laugh. But tbh my Japanese was crap, I just thought I was doing a good enough job bluffing. As soon as they started talking in Japanese, I'd have to say kiku koto ikkomo dekehen waaaaaa 😅

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    I studied Japanese for like 6 months before I went and they were GUSHING at me spitting out me 15 phrases and trying to understand their words. if you're japanese and reading this now ILY so much and thank you for making that trip the best of my life.

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  • [–] 61 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Can confirm, this is basically how it goes in Texas. Almost a decade ago, my best friend and I were browsing this little hole in the wall shop in central TX run by an elderly Japanese couple. They got to chatting with us and at one point, said we were "forever friends". I've been using that phrase to describe us ever since.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    It may be just how normalised it is for English speakers to hear people speaking English imperfectly.

    There's no shame or judgement in it. But when you find whimsy, oh boy.

    I still say "delicious" in the way my Greek coworker did almost a decade ago, because it sounds better

    And my dog trainer called my dog's arse his anoos one time and now that's all we call it. Talking about mine? Arse. The dog's? Anoos.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago

    My wife worked with a guy from Korea and when he got upset at work he would say 'I go to mad!'

    We randomly say that when we get upset. It's a more fun way of expressing your anger.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Also there are so many dialects with heavy variables that it's entirely possible to get a group of people all speaking english who can't understand each other. Throw someone with a thick Louisiana Cajun accent, a West Country dude, and Nevada hick into a room together and I don't think they'd understand each other. Maybe the hick could understand the West Countryman but that'd be about where it'd end.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    For me, I watch tons of anime and I always find it funny when the characters try to speak English, especially if it’s supposed to be a native English speaker. There are also all of the loan words which they’ve modified to fit better into the flow of the language, but they sound funny/cutesy to me/English speakers.

    I am very careful to remind myself that anime isn’t real life and I’d never make fun of a real life Japanese person trying to speak English, but for anime it’s part of its quirky charm.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    I love how wholesome this is.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Just don't dig into the history of the account.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] 27 points 1 month ago

    English is already a mess. The only people I've ever met who get persnickety about it with non-native speakers are assholes. I'd rather 'correct' them with a swift kick in the kisser.

    Don't be embarrassed if your English isn't perfect. It's normal, and it's okay. We're all learning.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago

    I love little expressions and turns of phrase. English is basically the remnants of other languages at this point.

    It's the world's pidgin, and the world ain't over yet.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    One phrase I have eaten from Joe Abercrombie for anything eloquenty put is simply "those were good words". Even simple words hit hard when meant sincerely.

    Would recommend the book series (First Law trilogy)!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    And thus how many English words were created.

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