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[–] 71 points 2 months ago* (31 children)

If he isn't saying "You can have your phone back when you empty the dishes" over and over again, it's a grand dad fail.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (29 children)

    the problem is, how many times does he have to ask for it to happen? Why should he have to beg the child to assist in the house? Does the child not benefit from all that is around them including having a phone paid for?

    So why does he need to ask over and over again?

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  • [–] 37 points 2 months ago

    Because the parents haven't helped the child understand that being part of a family is being part of a team, and that the kid should help their team.

    That said, it is hard. Kids, just like adults, get tired and don't wanna do things. Gotta be patient and make achievable goals for them to help with. Start small.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (16 children)

    Because the flip side of expecting a kid to contribute is being required to teach how to do it and the habits to actually do it.

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  • [+] -12 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    Kids are not going to learn how to do things out of logic, empathy and understanding..... they're kids... they're dumb and selfish. They learn the habits through self-interested rewards, like getting a phone back.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I forgot that you can't teach kids, and that what you have to do is just let them realize the personal utility of proactively emptying the dishwasher.
    You should just have kids, never teach them anything and get irritated at them when they don't figure out how to do things when you want.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Thank you.

    You should just have kids, never teach them anything and get irritated at them when they don't figure out how to do things when you want.

    That is exactly how I learned how to feel guilt and shame instead of how to cook and clean.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    You people, who obviously don't have kids, are insufferable. How do you think teaching works? You just tell a kid something and then boom, its learned?

    When you went to school, did the teacher just tell you things and then you perfectly understood them and remembered it? Or did you have exercises, practices, tests, projects.... ya know things to do to apply and possibly fail at?

    Because most people, especially children, domt learn things by just telling them. They domt get it. Until they can relate to it personally. Its the whole "dont touch the stove" part of learning.

    You people obviously live in some fantasy or are complete morons. Take your pick.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    You people, who obviously don't have kids, are insufferable.

    Not as insufferable as people who actively defend child abuse. There is a reason I chose not to have kids. There are too many victims already.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I have kids, they help cook and clean, they're beautiful and I don't abuse them.

    They have perfect grades, and don't have any trouble with authority. They understand that their teachers work for them as much as they work for their teachers.

    Unfortunately, it seems not everyone on this earth can be smart and capable. I am very fortunate to be both and have children who are both as well.

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    No they're not, and no they don't:

    https://childmind.org/article/when-should-you-come-between-a-teenager-and-her-phone/

    One of the basic rules of effective discipline is to make any punishment related to the misbehavior. “If your child violates curfew, taking away the phone is completely unrelated to that behavior,” says Dr. Peters. “You’re not connecting with the kid. You are making them feel bad, which you think is helping them learn, but in fact is helping them learn to be sneaky or learn that you are the punisher.”

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    You can teach children, but not like that and not immediately. While chores should be done. So at first it's fine to force a chore.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Unless it is to save a life or avoid grievous harm, force is unacceptable.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Yes. Using physical force to coerce or restrain a child who is not posing a threat to anybody is abuse.

    https://fountainofyouthbath.com/can-a-person-be-forced-to-taie-a-shower/

    "Potential Consequences of Forcing Hygiene":

    Increased anxiety or distress in the individual.

    Potential for trauma, particularly if the person feels violated or disrespected.

    Damaged relationships, as the individual may feel resentment towards those enforcing the action.

    Community backlash if the enforcement is viewed as abusive or overly controlling.

    Forcing someone into a shower may lead to slips and falls, especially in vulnerable populations.

    Potential for the individual to develop aversions to hygiene practices due to negative associations.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    (it wasn't me, who downvoted your comment, just in case)

    Are those consequences from AI?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    (it wasn't me, who downvoted your comment, just in case)

    I've been getting a lot of those on my comments here. As far as I can tell, it's mostly entitled parents who can't acknowledge how their selfish choices have created a living hell for their children.

    Are those consequences from AI?

    They were allegedly written by Joshua Wilkinson, who has a bio at the end of the article and in the "about" page of the website, but he did not cite his sources. I am unsure how to verify that he is real or that he didn't use AI to write the article.

    I tried to find a study specifically about long-term consequences of being forced to bathe as a child, but found none. Apparently forced bathing is a kink for some people, and "forest bathing" is also a thing, both of which might be polluting the results of my query. But maybe there is nothing to find, no study conducted on the topic yet.

    The closest I could find is a study about forcing children to endure medical treatment:

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0969733019833128#bibr3-0969733019833128/

    But it's a qualitative study that seems to focus more on the caregivers than the patients, and it is behind a paywall.

    Personally, I don't think it's a stretch to say that forcing a child to do anything, even something good for them like getting vaccinated, can be stressful or even traumatic. In the case of bathing, it's something that might happen repeatedly, even daily.

    I did not enjoy baths as a kid. They took too much time. My mother chose to give me rag baths sometimes instead of a full bath, but sometimes she would scrub aggressively to vent her frustration. Looking back, maybe she was trying to get me to choose the full bath. It didn't help that we had five people and one bathroom, so by the time I was done filling the tub and bathing there was almost certainly someone waiting at the door.

    Obviously, that is anecdotal. But I believe forcing a child to bathe is harmful. My parents were southern baptists, authoritative and violent. I have many problems, but am feeling noticeably better since cutting contact with them. I have therapy next week.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Mine just want to help, and I've been told early on that most kids are like that. Let them help when they want to help, even if they're making your task harder, and they'll happily do it when they're actually capable.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Does the kid also say this if it comes to clean up the gear in the sports club?

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago

    Does the kid also say this if it comes to clean up the gear in the sports club?

    Good question. If the child chooses to join a sports club, presumably they are expected to clean the equipment. If they don't like that, they can choose to leave the club or even get kicked out depending on how many times it happens and the club's policies, which are presumably written somewhere.

    The child did not choose to be born. They have to follow orders under threat of punishment. If they don't like it, they can't legally leave. There is no written contract, parents can set and change expectations arbitrarily. It's a very different situation.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Cleaning up the dishes from a meal you ate but did not put anything into isn’t being a fucking slave.

    Do your chores

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I simply said "children aren't slaves," and you took that personally.

    Do your own chores, you chose to make the mess.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Then cook your own food. You sound exactly like the spoiled little bitch kids that my friends raise with the same attitude. Worst kids I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna have a hard life when they hit adulthood and realize they actually have to do things for themselves.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago

    Then cook your own food.

    I do. I buy it, I cook it, and I clean up after myself, no dishwasher. It's difficult because I associate these chores with guilt and punishment because my parents were also authoritarian and abusive.

    You sound exactly like the spoiled little bitch kids that my friends raise with the same attitude. Worst kids I’ve ever seen.

    You sound unhinged.

    They’re gonna have a hard life when they hit adulthood and realize they actually have to do things for themselves

    They almost certainly already have a hard life. Stupid, selfish parents don't consider how much pain they're passing along by creating life they can't care for in a society that expects us all to work to death while the planet burns around us.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Neither are parents.

    They chose the circumstances, they chose to reproduce. The child did not choose to be born.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Does that mean that a child is absolved of any chores they don't like?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Generally, yes. Children should have autonomy over their own selves. The challenge for parents is to teach children why chores are worth doing and how to do them without feeling like work or punishment. If parents are not up for that challenge, they probably should not have kids.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago

    There seem to be several people here who definitely do not have children, who therefore really cannot speak from the lived experiences of parents in their outrage.

    Part of a parents responsibility is preparing their child to participate in the real world, on their own. Especially when one’s children reach their teenage years, they need to understand having responsibilities that they need to do in a timely manner. Responsibilities that they do not care for are still responsibilities. That is literally what being an adult is about. They should be given all of the love and affection that a parent can provide, but structure is a must. Losing privileges should be a last resort, after talking to them, explaining why doing things when they need to be done and the consequences of inaction.

    How can you prepare your kid to do the tasks at work that they dislike but will inevitably need to do, if you allow them to just say “No, don’t like it. Don’t feel like it.”?

    My son will be getting his first job, which will be paying pretty good, considering he is being compensated to learn a trade. We talked about looking at and following a budget, as well as him covering the bills for a couple things we both use (phone and internet). He’s going to have to get used to paying all of his own bills when he eventually leaves the nest, therefore he needs experience with it at home in an safe space. We’re going to work together on these things. Not doing so is doing him a disservice. My parents let me move out as soon as I graduated high school, and I wish they would have made me stay home for at least a little longer. I had zero knowledge when it came to finances and credit.

    Responsibilities inside a safe space are absolutely necessary. Letting one’s children just do whatever they want without consequence is terrible parenting.

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  • [–] 29 points 2 months ago (34 children)

    My parents used to pull shit like this when I was growing up. All I learned from it was that they are horrible people.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (31 children)

    They were horrible people because you were a lazy fuck that didn’t do what you were asked to?

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  • [–] 32 points 2 months ago* (18 children)

    Nope, it's because they used "I will steal your stuff, violate your trust, manipulate you, and lie to you" to try to "teach a lesson".

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  • [+] -37 points 2 months ago (17 children)

    You don’t own anything as a kid. Pay your own phone bill and you can call it yours

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    Any excuses for the other 3 things in that list?

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (14 children)

    Three things? He told her to do the dishes then took her phone when she didn’t. That’s exactly one thing.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago* (13 children)

    I listed 4 things. "I will steal your stuff, violate your trust, manipulate you, and lie to you". You only addressed "steal your stuff". I'm waiting to see how you to excuse the other 3.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    I mean, if that’s how you view it, that’s. you problem. You having the privilege of a phone as a condition of doing your chores isn’t “taking your stuff” or “violating your trust”.

    The chores are a condition of the privilege. You not keeping up your end is violating the agreement. Not the other way around.

    You sound spoiled.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (11 children)

    So you got nothing other than gaslighting?

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  • [+] -9 points 2 months ago (10 children)

    That’s not fucking gaslighting lmao. Maybe learn to google before you start using words you learned online

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    "Nothing was stolen from you.
    Your trust wasn't violated.
    No one lied to you".

    Textbook gaslighting.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    No, that’s just fucking facts.

    You don’t own the shit as a kid. It isn’t yours, therefore cannot be stolen. It’s a privilege you get based on you meeting certain conditions.

    If you violated the agreement of “you can have a phone if you keep up your chores”, you cannot have your trust violated when you are the one that didn’t do the chores and lost the phone. You are the one that broke the trust.

    And the agreement is you get a privilege if you keep up your end of the deal. If you break it and suffer the consequences you were told from the start, there is no lie. If anything, the parent is showing that they were being honest and not lying to you, because they’re doing exactly what they said they would.

    The gaslighting is you coming around and trying to change the whole thing to abuse when you don’t hold up your end of the deal. “You’re abusing me for keeping me true to the agreement I made” is bullshit.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Please tell me you're not a parent and never will be.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago

    Why? My kids are great. They’re scoring well above their peers and a few grades above their grade level, they don’t act like little shitheads to other parents like their friends whose parent do this soft parenting bullshit, and they’re not disrespectful assholes like their friends that come to my house.

    I fuckin love my kids. I rarely have to be that strict, but they know when I take their shit, they really fucked up. And they fix it. In return, I spoil the hell out of them. The sky is the limit for privileges. If they behave, virtually anything is on the table. Video games, computers, dirt bikes, concerts, trips, whatever. If they fuck up, they know their shit is gone. But they also know that the line of fucking up and losing their most important shit is pretty far out there. They’re assholes at home. And guess why? Because they know they’re loved and safe.

    But outside of home, they’re amazing kids. Literally every other parent talks about how great my kids are, how respectful they are, how responsible they are, and how they act better than their kids do. And they are. I’m proud as fuck of my kids and tell them every day. I just also have high standards for them, because I’m not going to raise some pansy ass losers that make excuses for everything.

    Their friends that come over are fucking horrible. Make a mess and tell my wife to her face “you clean it, it’s your house”. Bully other kids and laugh it off. Don’t know how to do anything for themselves and yell at their parents, or my wife when they come over, to help them.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    You don’t own the shit as a kid.

    If it was a gift, you do.

    If you violated the agreement of “you can have a phone if you keep up your chores”, you cannot have your trust violated when you are the one that didn’t do the chores and lost the phone.

    We don't know whether such an agreement was made.

    And the agreement is you get a privilege if you keep up your end of the deal.

    You think communication with the outside world is a privilege? I think it is a necessity.

    If anything, the parent is showing that they were being honest and not lying to you, because they’re doing exactly what they said they would.

    Did you forget the specific scenario we are talking about?

    Regardless of what I think, the law typically does permit parents to limit access to cars, computers, phones, and more. But in the case of the post we're responding to, the phone was taken without her knowledge or consent, causing needless distress.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Not having your fucking phone is not distress.

    This is why nobody takes you people seriously.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    Not having your fucking phone is not distress.

    You are such a selective reader, it comes across as dishonest. Look at the post:

    Now she's freaking out because she can't find her phone...

    She could have been having an important conversation. She could be afraid that she's lost it completely and will be punished for that.

    This is why nobody takes you people seriously.

    Who is "you people" here? Abuse survivors? And you don't take us seriously because you're too self-centered to even acknowledge abuse, let alone oppose it?

    I'm sorry you were mistreated. Break the cycle.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You don’t own the shit as a kid. It isn’t yours, therefore cannot be stolen. It’s a privilege you get based on you meeting certain conditions.

    Oops, looks like someone got their sense of legality mixed up with their sense of decency

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago

    No, my sense of morality is to raise independent adults that can’t take care of themselves without crying about basic life tasks. Unlike you fucking losers.

    I’m sure you idiots would cry abuse about me putting my kids PlayStation in my closet though because they didn’t do what they were told to.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago

    When a parent gives their child trust, privacy, help, or even a phone, it is an expression of their love, and for it to be healthy it can't be transactional.

    A child's clothes are THEIR clothes. A parent guides, helps, and is in charge of it, but it BELONGS to the child. Same goes for ALL their posessions.

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  • [+] -9 points 2 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Making kids do chores and contribute to the household isn’t abuse you pussy

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago

    Dude, practically an entire generation was given a smartphone with games and full internet without restrictions, became so fucking addicted to it that they suffer mental health issues and get traumatized if it's taken away from them and think it's like cutting someone's hand off.

    You're not going to convince them of anything if it means not letting the kid have a phone 24/7 without restrictions.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Asking them isn't abuse. Making them is. Stealing their things and causing them distress is.

    I'm sorry your parents mistreated you. Stop pretending it's normal.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    My parents were fine, and now I’m a successful adult that can live on my own.

    No, making your kid do chores as a condition of the free life they have isn’t abuse. Stop being a pussy

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    My parents were fine, and now I’m a successful adult that can live on my own.

    And you have nothing better to do than defend child abuse?

    Out of curiosity, did they hit you? It's the first thing that comes to mind when you try the "I turned out fine" defense.

    No, making your kid do chores as a condition of the free life they have isn’t abuse.

    Making them do work for you is abuse. They don't have a free life. They can't move out and they're punished if they don't follow orders.

    Stop being a pussy

    Am I cat, or a vagina? I'm fond of both, so I'm unclear on the insult here. Are you a playground bully? Did your parents forget to help you grow up?

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Making them do work for you is abuse

    For you? It's for them also. It's for the family.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    The family they did not choose and cannot leave. Children owe their parents nothing.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)

    “You can play video games AFTER you do your chores.”

    “I DIDN’T ASK TO BE BORN! THIS IS ABUSE!”

    Jesus fucking Christ sometimes I forget 13 year old emo kids are on the same internet as me.

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